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dr_lha said:
Yes someone did, which is what sparked off this particular argument!
No, someone didn't.

The quoted comment is not the same as claiming that it's legal to install OS X on a Dell. It may be after Leopard is released, but right now it's illegal, for the reasons DougTheImpaler mentioned (there's no retail version of Mac OS X, for example.)

You know, for someone so quick with the insults, you could at least try to understand what you're responding to before criticising it.
 
peharri said:
No, the doctrine of first sale means you have the right to use the software even if you don't agree to the EULA.
It most certainly DOES NOT. The First-Sale Doctrine does not currently apply definitively to computer software, and it doesn't give you the right to ignore a EULA, unless that EULA is illegal. It gives you the right to re-sell that license if you choose not to accept the terms.

No. The DMCA only applies to copy prevention and access prevention methods. It's been shot down when the use has been to try to go beyond simple copyright protections, such as the infamous Lexmark case. Installing a legal copy of Mac OS X on a PC does not constitute copyright infringment, and the use of a control mechanism to prevent that is not covered by the DMCA.
Yes, and cracking the software by means of a third-party installer falls directly into those criteria. There is no such thing as a "legal copy of OS X" that can be installed on a PC.

No, it isn't copyright infringment. You have the right to use the software you bought and paid for. Look up the Doctrine of First Sale. Using the software you bought and paid for in a way counter to an EULA is, if the EULA was agreed to, a breach of contract at worst.
It IS copyright infringement. Use of OS X on a non-Apple machine extends beyond the rights conferred to you by Apple, and not only because of the EULA. Apple does not make or authorize the use of OS X on non-Apple hardware under any circumstance. Installation on a Dell is the installation on an unauthorized medium, which is an act of copyright infringement.

You should take a closer look at the FSD yourself. By your argument, you can use an upgrade version of Windows as a full version, which you can't and no court would say that you could. You don't get to ignore the EULA. That's not what the Doctrine says.
 
peharri said:
The quoted comment is not the same as claiming that it's legal to install OS X on a Dell. It may be after Leopard is released.
Thats the point though, it *won't* be legal after Leopard is released, which is what you alluded to. Unless you know something we don't and Apple are going to release Leopard to run on generic machines, then you won't be able to legally install Leopard on a Dell or a Thinkpad, your quasi-legal bullcrap arguments aside.
 
Maybe Apple actually is in the sweet spot with their pushing of Universal Binaries. Is it possible that if XCode is good enough at producing fast binaries for both PPC and Intel that there will be no reason for developers not to use it and that Apple can have its pick of PPC and Intel whenever it wants? Maybe UB isn't just a transition strategy.
 
peharri said:
No, you don't. You only need to agree to the EULA if you use an installer that requires you agree to the EULA before you install. That means Apple's. As Apple's installer doesn't work on a regular PC, you will not be using Apple's installer.

Honestly, I actually mentioned this entire process in the sentence after the one you quoted. Yet you're the one hurling insults (twice now), and you've yet to justify either insult. Can you knock it off and, at the very least, explain what you disagree with without bald-face ignoring the parts that answer your criticisms?
Read matticus' retort. You can't just bypass the EULA by ignoring it or hacking it out of the installer, thats one of the reasons they give you a printed copy of the EULA when you purchase Mac OS X, it lays out the legal framework within which you can run Mac OS X.
 
matticus008 said:
It most certainly DOES NOT. The First-Sale Doctrine does not currently apply definitively to computer software, and it doesn't give you the right to ignore a EULA, unless that EULA is illegal. It gives you the right to re-sell that license if you choose not to accept the terms.
I respectfully disagree that anything above that's true is relevent as far as this sub-discussion goes. The situation we're talking about is your ability to use the content you've bought. EULAs so far are a gray area, but nobody, so far, has ever suggested, outside of paranoid computer circles, that you're bound by EULAs you disagree with, or that if you're able to install software without agreeing to an EULA that would otherwise be required, that you're bound by it.

Apple retains certain rights as a copyright holder. Similarly, as someone with a legal copy of Mac OS X, while Apple is not obliged to make it easy for you to do it, there are certain things you can legally do, which includes technologically moving copies around and actually running the software. There is nothing in copyright law that allows a copyright holder to force someone to obey the provisions of a contract in order to access content they've already bought.

The only theoretical restriction I can think of that Apple could use would be to require users agree to the EULA before they buy the software. That's going to be very difficult to enforce, in practice it means the end of buying Mac OS X through retail outlets.

As far as the rest of your comment goes, you appear to be responding as if I'm saying it's already legal. Of course it isn't, which is why I was refering to the possibility of it being legal, via these means, after Leopard is released (which will be the first Intel OS X available in boxed-retail form.) Also your comment about Windows upgrades, while interesting, doesn't actually contradict anything. Windows is also shipped in a form that means users agree to an EULA when they run the default installer.
 
dr_lha said:
Thats the point though, it *won't* be legal after Leopard is released, which is what you alluded to. Unless you know something we don't and Apple are going to release Leopard to run on generic machines, then you won't be able to legally install Leopard on a Dell or a Thinkpad, your quasi-legal bullcrap arguments aside.

You're changing the subject (and wrong.)
 
dr_lha said:
However, if Apple keeps pushing the idea of "Universal Binaries" (i.e. PPC and Intel code, not just Intel), then perhaps Apple could produce a low power laptop based on one of PA-Semi's chips in the future. I doubt it, but its possible.

Peharri makes some valid points (I was surprised to see my 1.67 PB so high on some of the benchmarks against the MacBook 2.0 the other day) about the PPC architecture, but I think your point about UB applications is something we have to keep in mind. This startup (PA Semi) is not the powerhouse that Intel is, obviously, and stability in making new chips available had to be a substantial part of the decision Apple made the switch.

The time could come that not too many people even know what's in their Apple machines. Is it Intel or PPC...who cares--it runs the same programs and OS X (and its successor, hopefully) is still there to talk me down off the ledge after sitting in a cubicle with XP all day.
 
BTW - its entirely possible that one way that Apple will get around this issue of Leopard being installed on generic machines is the following:

Intel Macs have built in hardware encryption (referred to as TPM I believe). Apple encrypt the files on the Leopard DVD so that they can only be decoded by an Intel Mac, and not on a generic machine.

Then the only means of installing Leopard on a generic machine is by:

a) Copying the files off an Mac with Leopard installed. This is copyright infringement.

b) Breaking the encryption on the files to decode the files. This is a infringement of the DMCA.

As both are illegal, this would effectively close any loophole that might exist to allow people to installed bought copies of Leopard on their generic machines.

Personally I think the legal framework is already there not to allow this, but by doing the above Apple would not only make it harder to copy, but would have a bigger stick with which to hit people with in the form of the DMCA.
 
peharri said:
I respectfully disagree that anything above that's true is relevent as far as this sub-discussion goes. The situation we're talking about is your ability to use the content you've bought. EULAs so far are a gray area, but nobody, so far, has ever suggested, outside of paranoid computer circles, that you're bound by EULAs you disagree with, or that if you're able to install software without agreeing to an EULA that would otherwise be required, that you're bound by it.
The fact is that you're bound by them until a court says you aren't. Since that hasn't happened, you're legally liable for the terms they state. If you don't agree with the EULA, you can either do as they specify and not install it, or install it and hope that your cause for disagreement never causes legal trouble for you. It's like speeding. Do it, don't do it, but if you get caught, don't try to pretend you're above the law, even if it is a stupid law.

So if by "nobody..." you mean "the rule of law," then yes, I agree with you.

But it's also not accurate to say that the EULA/contract violation is the worst barrier. The DMCA, which criminalizes most of the acts involved in hacking OS X onto a PC is a serious problem, making copyright violation a far more serious game.

Apple retains certain rights as a copyright holder. Similarly, as someone with a legal copy of Mac OS X, while Apple is not obliged to make it easy for you to do it, there are certain things you can legally do, which includes technologically moving copies around and actually running the software. There is nothing in copyright law that allows a copyright holder to force someone to obey the provisions of a contract in order to access content they've already bought.
You don't get to decide that. If all you had to do to install OS X on a Dell was pop the disc in and agree to the license, then yes, it would simply be a contract violation. But because you have to break the software and modify it in blatantly illegal ways to get it to run on that Dell, that is both copyright infringement and a crime. Even if you actually paid for the OS disc.

The only theoretical restriction I can think of that Apple could use would be to require users agree to the EULA before they buy the software. That's going to be very difficult to enforce, in practice it means the end of buying Mac OS X through retail outlets.
That's not necessary in terms of the legal nature of PC installation. The box itself specifies that you can only install it on an Apple Macintosh computer, so there aren't any surprises waiting for you on the other side. If you buy the retail copy of Leopard, you're breaking the law by installing it on a PC, even under the current terms. I suspect that the license terms for Leopard will be even more strongly worded to make this abundantly clear.

As far as the rest of your comment goes, you appear to be responding as if I'm saying it's already legal. Of course it isn't, which is why I was refering to the possibility of it being legal, via these means, after Leopard is released (which will be the first Intel OS X available in boxed-retail form.) Also your comment about Windows upgrades, while interesting, doesn't actually contradict anything. Windows is also shipped in a form that means users agree to an EULA when they run the default installer.
I'm responding as if you're saying the FSD gives you any rights to running an OS X Leopard retail copy on a PC, or that the use of a non-Apple installer would make doing so legal, or that the EULA isn't binding if you pay for the disc. None of that is true.

Edit: The Windows comment was in reference to your First-Sale defense, saying that you're not bound to the terms and can use the software you paid for however you want, even if you disagree with the EULA, and it's never worse than a contract violation. If you have a contract that says "don't steal the painting" and you steal the painting, you've both violated contract AND committed a crime. It's not one or the other.
 
CPU choices

Now, I enjoy discussing chip design as much as the next guy on this thread, but an important part seem to be, at least to me, that Apple isn't about components. See what changes they made in parts, suppliers and manufacturers for the iPod. Apple, to me, is about offering user experience.

The move to Intel, as much as it supprised me, seems already to be paying of. We see a lot of media coverage, more, I assume, then a move to a start-up would have created. We see new machines that get thumbs up from even non-Apple users. We see Boot-Camp, if only as a security blanket for some but a huge argument for buying Apple for others (and complete irrelevant for most, I assume). We know there is Parallels, upcoming VMWare or Darwine and other alternatives while Apple seems to have an Ace up it's sleeve for Leopard when it comes to counter the argument of Windows-only software.

So Adobe is doing their homework they should have been doing somewhere in the past five years. How much is this point worth compared to waiting for a new supplier for another 12 months (or more)? Or the current supplier that makes promisses, but doesn't deliver? Steve Jobs made a promiss about 3GHz CPU's from IBM and all we got was babystep increases in clockspeed.

Apart from gaming, which I don't do, any speed-challenged Mac still makes working with it easier then a PC running Windows, where I constantly have to do many more clicking to get a particular tasks done. I mean, processordesign and clockspeed only accounts for so much in the entire user experience. (Often the amount of RAM has a bigger impact the a speedbump, anyway)

I don't get a lot of you posters. Apple isn't a mix 'n match supplier. You get a model and some bto options. KISS and that is what most customers (including technically inclineded folks like me, complete with degree in computer electronics and all) like. Personally, I never cared much about what processor is inside. Sure, the clockspeed of a 603e wasn't comparable to the non-e version, so it is important to understand that difference. And G4 made a huge difference compared to a similarely clocked G3 when the app could take advantage of Altivec. Nowadays, some of the processing apps do is delegated to the GPU, which makes comparing MB and MBP difficult. Throwing, as an example, AMD in the mix is only complicating things unneccesarely for most Macintosh users.

Any discussion about processors is moot. With the current build does Apple have many more options that PPC or x86, but what's the point? Apple designs the box we are running the OS on. But still, I enjoy reading about all your "what ifs" that seem to be offered.
 
dr_lha said:
Read matticus' retort. You can't just bypass the EULA by ignoring it or hacking it out of the installer, thats one of the reasons they give you a printed copy of the EULA when you purchase Mac OS X, it lays out the legal framework within which you can run Mac OS X.

Amen.

This argument reminds me of when, back in the 80s, a friend had two VCRs and made copies of rented movies. He said it wasn't illegal as long as you didn't copy the FBI warning:rolleyes:
 
erm i could swear i clicked on the "Did Apple Court Other PPC Vendors Before Intel Switch?" thread...

handbags ladies...
 
dr_lha said:
BTW - its entirely possible that one way that Apple will get around this issue of Leopard being installed on generic machines is the following:

Intel Macs have built in hardware encryption (referred to as TPM I believe). Apple encrypt the files on the Leopard DVD so that they can only be decoded by an Intel Mac, and not on a generic machine.

Then the only means of installing Leopard on a generic machine is by:

a) Copying the files off an Mac with Leopard installed. This is copyright infringement.

b) Breaking the encryption on the files to decode the files. This is a infringement of the DMCA.

As both are illegal, this would effectively close any loophole that might exist to allow people to installed bought copies of Leopard on their generic machines.

Personally I think the legal framework is already there not to allow this, but by doing the above Apple would not only make it harder to copy, but would have a bigger stick with which to hit people with in the form of the DMCA.

So far, that's exactly what they've done with Tiger. There are a couple of files that run themselves by the TPM and running OS X on generic x86 hardware is only possible by defeating these files
 
dr_lha said:
Well, this debate could probably go on forever, but I think we can say one thing for sure:

Its not legal to install OS X on a Dell.

Get over it. EULA's are not legally binding* if they try to waive legal consumer rights. Forbidding to install the software on some kinds or brands of computers is most definitely a violation of consumer rights.

Apple's EULA won't stand a chance in court. They will probably get in trouble with the European Commission sooner or later.

*unless you live in a country with DMCA or equivalent absurd laws.
 
dr_lha said:
You realise this will never be legal? Apple don't sell full-retail versions of OS X, they sell upgrades. Don't believe me? Tell me the last time anyone has bought an Mac OS boxed version who didn't already own a license to a previous version of OS X. I imagine with Leopard boxes, Apple will more clearly mark these as upgrades and fully specify in the EULA that they are not to be installed on anything other than an Apple box.
Depending on what state you live in, that EULA may be a meaningless statement.

Morally, ethically, and in most places, legally, there is nothing wrong with installing a bought and paid-for copy of any software product on an unsupported hardware platform. If you buy a DVD of Mac OS X/86 (when they finally ship - probably version 10.5) and install it on non-Apple equipment, it really doesn't matter. Apple is getting their money, and they won't provide any support.

If you consider that piracy, well, you've got a very strange definition of the word. To most of us, piracy is when you are using more copies than you paid for, or if you are distributing copies without permission.

By your definition, it should also be piracy to run Windows software through VPC, because those programs all say on the box that they require Intel/AMD hardware. Good luck finding anybody to support you in your crusade.
 
Detlev_73 said:
This is somewhat difficult to swallow in light that Jobs announced that Apple engineers had been working for a while (I think he said years or what amounted to years) on a version of Mac OS running on Intel. If that's the case, why would have they tried to court other Power suppliers if Apple was going with Intel anyway? Kooky story. :rolleyes:


He said they had an x86 version compiled of every release, "just in case."


Also, I really do like the Intel switch. As a personal preference, I've always thought that Intel chips "seemed" faster.
 
rjgjonker said:
Get over it. EULA's are not legally binding* if they try to waive legal consumer rights. Forbidding to install the software on some kinds or brands of computers is most definitely a violation of consumer rights.

Apple's EULA won't stand a chance in court. They will probably get in trouble with the European Commission sooner or later.

*unless you live in a country with DMCA or equivalent absurd laws.
The DMCA says absolutely nothing about EULAs.

There is a piece of legislation, called the UCITA, that software vendors would like to see become law. This would make shrink-wrap/click-through licenses legally binding. To date, only two states were actually dumb enough to sign this into law (MD and VA). And as far as I know, only one other state's court (MO) has declared them binding without UCITA.

Anywhere else, contracts are only binding if you actually sign them. So license agreements won't be binding unless you actually sign and return the contract. Not simply by opening the box or clicking "I agree" on the installer. Which means your rights are defined by copyright law, not by the wording of a EULA.

And copyright law only cares about whether you make/distribute copies. It couldn't care less about what you do with a legally-purchased product.
 
Core Trio said:
you realize that no one REALLY thinks there is going to be a G5 powerbook and that "G5 powerbooks next tuesday" has been a running joke for quite some time...right?

Actually when I was at Apple in Cupertino last fall, I was told that some of the early prototype PowerBook G5's actually caught fire and literally burst into flames when under sustained heavy load. Of course, this had happened well before the 17w chips' availability, but served to nix the idea of 970 feasibility in portables at that time. So be it. 64-bit computing is not a significant advantage in a laptop, which requires an efficient multi-core G4-like chip such as from PA Semi. I sincerely hope that the future will bring PowerPC back into new Apple models. I need a multi-CELL tower Mac.
 
shamino said:
And copyright law only cares about whether you make/distribute copies. It couldn't care less about what you do with a legally-purchased product.

The above statement is a prime example of a popular misconception. Most (if not all) of the commercial software you "purchase" is not sold to you, but licensed to you for use under specific terms. You buy a license to USE the software. You don't OWN the software. When you buy computer hardware, you do own the hardware, but you do not necessarily own any/all of the software it runs.

The license is the product you are purchasing, not the software itself.
 
shamino said:
And copyright law only cares about whether you make/distribute copies. It couldn't care less about what you do with a legally-purchased product.
With the one caveat being that software isn't currently defined as a purchased product, and that there are indeed limitations on use of some products.

Also, it has never been in question that Apple has a legal right to restrict its software to its own products, so copyright law absolutely allows restriction to the Macintosh hardware platform.

it should also be piracy to run Windows software through VPC, because those programs all say on the box that they require Intel/AMD hardware. Good luck finding anybody to support you in your crusade.
No. It says Intel or compatible. It doesn't stipulate any conditions on doing so or the nature of that compatibility, and considering that Microsoft makes VPC as well, that's not really the same thing.
 
Marble said:
Maybe Apple actually is in the sweet spot with their pushing of Universal Binaries. Is it possible that if XCode is good enough at producing fast binaries for both PPC and Intel that there will be no reason for developers not to use it and that Apple can have its pick of PPC and Intel whenever it wants? Maybe UB isn't just a transition strategy.
Now THIS is what I'm really hoping for. If Apple pushes UB hard enough, and keeps things simple enough to go cross-architecture, they could literally switch back and forth between lines or at will, depending on what's available.

For example, if this startup ships some absolutely monster laptop chip in 2008, and neither Intel nor AMD have anything even close, Apple would have the option of just sticking one in a portable and calling it "wicked fast". If IBM's Power6 turns out to be a total beast that the Opteron successor can't hope to compete with, yet is cool enough and cheap enough to put in a tower, they could market a PPC workstation for those extra-demanding tasks.

Now I don't think it's likely they're going to do this, and it may may or may not even be as easy as it sounds--I seem to remember discussion of it being much easier to write drivers for x86-based graphics cards, for example, and games might also require less work since they probably use custom assembler code or something.

But for a lot of apps, wouldn't it be awesome for Apple to just ship whatever works best in a system? For code that makes very good use of the Altivec units, I know the XServe G5s are great for clustering, so perhaps that's something they'll keep making so they can sell a few hundred at a pop to universitites here and there.
 
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