Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Subiklim said:
It's been mentioned in this thread before, but I'm sure you're aware of the processor related problems the Xboxes are having. I'm also sure you're aware of the catostrophic delay, and inventory shortages that the xbox exprienced (err, is experiencing) due to the processor.

And I am ALSO sure you are aware of the performace comparisons between the 'prosumer' Powermac g5s and the 'consumer' intel iMacs.

edit: typo

That is a myth about xbox360 CPU shortages. It was a myth sprouted by someone who thought that was the reason and the news spread.

All the shortages were due to Infineon not supplying enough memory chips at the correct spec.

http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/business/technology/13864415.htm
 
emotion said:
Not that I beleive 64 bit to be that much of an advantage (apart from marketing) the Core2 chips will be along and shipping in 3 or 4 months.
Speaking generally, no, 64 bit isn't an advantage, unless you need the extra memory space that you can access that way.

In the context of x86, though, it is a definite advantage: standard 16 bit x86, all the way through to 32 bit x86, have fourteen registers: AX, BX, CX, DX, CS, DS, SS, ES, DI, SI, SP, BP, IP, and FLAGS.

FLAGS is just a set of flags, set after various operations (such as compares), so isn't a general purpose register. IP is the instruction pointer, and again, isn't general purpose. CS, DS, SS, and ES are all segment registers, so can't be used for general purposes. So you're left with eight registers that can, possibly, be used in a general manner, although you can usually count on two of them (at least, possibly four) being used in other ways.

In comparison, PowerPC has 32 general purpose registers. Registers are the fastest form of memory you can access. You do the maths.

AMD, when they designed the 64 bit extensions to x86, introduced new registers as well, bringing the available registers to 16. These are only available to 64 bit code. More registers -- especially on a register-starved architecture like x86 -- mean that the code doesn't have to access main memory quite so much, so it will run that much faster.

That's why 64 bittedness (is that even a word? :D) is a win on x86. Not because it's a bigger number, but because of architectural improvements under the hood. Put those extra registers into the 32 bit x86 CPUs, and 64 bittedness becomes a loss (relatively speaking), except when it's specifically needed for the extra RAM. You'd still need to recompile the code to use those extra registers, though, and such code would not run on the older CPUs.
 
32 bit x86 uses extended registers eax ebx ecx etc and the cpu breaks up the x86 instructions into risc like instructions to try and get around the limited number of registers problem.

Intel just suck in my opinion.

Most of my programming has been for x86 chips and dealing with their limitations in C and x86 assembly languages so I'm on a first name basis with the x86 registers.

Without AMD and PPC competition the Intel chips we would have now would be slow badly designed hunks of garbage.

PPC is the cleanest design by far and Apple could have stayed with it instead they have become a PC clone manufacturer with an alternative OS (osx) as an option.
 
Sad, I wish we could have it both ways. 7 watts would be incredible, as would some possible IBM PPC chips, though I can't say the intel road map is too shabby, I'm not going to complain.

Personally, I'm sure almost all the reasons cited here for one architecture over another were part of apple's decision. They were thurough, no doubt, and surely not "viruous" enough to look only at what makes the best technology, but also at what will make money, even including scenarios like selling off the hardware manufacture or becoming an OS manufacturer someday (which x86 would benefit).

But whatever of the hundreds of advantages and disadvantages that went into the choice (some of which I'm sure were wrongly judged, too), I think apple went with intel for one primary reason: survival. With other companies, particularly PPC, Apple was stuck with whatever chips at whatever volumes the companies could make, and it's up to apple to market it as better than a Dell. But with intel, Apple gets the same chips everybody else gets, with the same supply constraints if there are any. This means stability and predictability for apple, and more, just being in the same boat, so they can't be left behind. Chips become a non-issue. Rather than having to market chips as superior to what's in a Dell, which might be patently false, they have to market that their computer is different from a Dell. They seem to be quite good at it.

I wish they had managed to make universal binaries so seamless that they could make computers with any chip on the market and you'd never need to know what was in it, but ultimately, for the sake of simplicity, software devolepment, marketing, and buying relationships, this would be impossible to maintain. We all know our PPC macs will someday not have software written for them.
 
macosxboy said:
32 bit x86 uses extended registers eax ebx ecx etc and the cpu breaks up the x86 instructions into risc like instructions to try and get around the limited number of registers problem.
They'd be insane to do it any other way. But it still doesn't alter the fact that there is a paucity of general purpose registers in x86-32 from the compiler's point of view, meaning that the compiler is obliged to do a heap of store-load cycles to maintain its working state. The CPU can only go so far in figuring out how to turn those patterns into extra registers; the compiler can do a much better job, which is why AMD's 64 bit extensions produce a noticeable speedup after recompilation.

From a purely technical point of view, yes, I agree, PPC is a saner design. But the volume of x86 means that AMD and Intel can drag it by brute force to levels of performance to rival RISC systems; if the RISC manufacturers could match the R&D that goes into x86 (hah! dream on!), you'd see RISC massively outperform x86, because of the lack of legacy cruft. (Ok, maybe I exaggerate a little, but not by much ...)
 
pth-webdev said:
Now, I enjoy discussing chip design as much as the next guy on this thread, but an important part seem to be, at least to me, that Apple isn't about components. See what changes they made in parts, suppliers and manufacturers for the iPod. Apple, to me, is about offering user experience.

The move to Intel, as much as it supprised me, seems already to be paying of. We see a lot of media coverage, more, I assume, then a move to a start-up would have created. We see new machines that get thumbs up from even non-Apple users. We see Boot-Camp, if only as a security blanket for some but a huge argument for buying Apple for others (and complete irrelevant for most, I assume). We know there is Parallels, upcoming VMWare or Darwine and other alternatives while Apple seems to have an Ace up it's sleeve for Leopard when it comes to counter the argument of Windows-only software.

So Adobe is doing their homework they should have been doing somewhere in the past five years. How much is this point worth compared to waiting for a new supplier for another 12 months (or more)? Or the current supplier that makes promisses, but doesn't deliver? Steve Jobs made a promiss about 3GHz CPU's from IBM and all we got was babystep increases in clockspeed.

Apart from gaming, which I don't do, any speed-challenged Mac still makes working with it easier then a PC running Windows, where I constantly have to do many more clicking to get a particular tasks done. I mean, processordesign and clockspeed only accounts for so much in the entire user experience. (Often the amount of RAM has a bigger impact the a speedbump, anyway)

I don't get a lot of you posters. Apple isn't a mix 'n match supplier. You get a model and some bto options. KISS and that is what most customers (including technically inclineded folks like me, complete with degree in computer electronics and all) like. Personally, I never cared much about what processor is inside. Sure, the clockspeed of a 603e wasn't comparable to the non-e version, so it is important to understand that difference. And G4 made a huge difference compared to a similarely clocked G3 when the app could take advantage of Altivec. Nowadays, some of the processing apps do is delegated to the GPU, which makes comparing MB and MBP difficult. Throwing, as an example, AMD in the mix is only complicating things unneccesarely for most Macintosh users.

Any discussion about processors is moot. With the current build does Apple have many more options that PPC or x86, but what's the point? Apple designs the box we are running the OS on. But still, I enjoy reading about all your "what ifs" that seem to be offered.

Nicely said. Apple views the chip as a tool to get something else done -- an unsurpassed experience of interacting with your computer. If it allows them to make the computer they would like, the rest doesn't matter too much.

Though I imagine you meant Apple when you said Adobe?
 
from what i read most people seem to think the transition has been good, personally I havnt had a chance to really work with a intel based mac so I cant judge, but apple had a nice safe zone with the PPC, now that they use so much standard components Apple will need to inovate more, ye the mini is nice, but soon the design will be copied, and the isight is cool, but so what, we have a dozen acers in the office that already has a integrated webcam. Apple will need to push new and cool features more and more into their hardware if they want to maintain the cool factor they have.
 
UberMac said:
7 watts?! 7 WATTS?! :eek: That's rather impressive. Ah well we went Intel. We should be happy. I am happy.

*druel* Macbook ... although a Macbook with 3x longer battery...mmmm 18 hour battery life...mmm

What makes you think that laptops with P.A. Semi CPU's would have triple the battery-life? There are other components using power you know. The screen and the HD are propably the biggest consumers of power. And when the optical-drive is in use, it too consumes loads of power. And then there's WLAN....

I'm hoping that SOMEONE would use P.A. Semi CPU's in computers. Genesi would be my choice as a possible candidate.
 
Eithanius said:
but it's still on an el-crappo x86 architecture.... :rolleyes:

PPC (and MIPS for that matter) might be "cleaner" architectures. But do you EVER see any of that "cleanliness" as an user? No you do not.

When Apple moved from that "clean" PPC in to "el-crappo" x86, their performance shot through the roof. And you are complaining?
 
Eithanius said:
So what if they "breast-feed" you with that kinda stuff...? You actually believed in that crap....? It's a PC world by the way, of course they'll write something better to satisfy the majority.... :rolleyes:

Dude, Ars Technica is propably THE best technology-oriented site on the net, period. And FYI: they have TONS of Mac-related reviews/articles as well. Quite a few of the people behind Ars Technica are Mac-users.
 
Though I imagine you meant Apple when you said Adobe?

No, no, I meant Adobe. Part of the discussion I read in this thread was that the transition to the CPU manufacturer from the article would be preferable over Intel because the Universal Binary problems and, to me, that means a reference to Adobe delaying UB to CS3. It affects a lot of pro-users and might impact sales. The reference was implied here, but I assumed it would be clear since it was mentioned more explicitely before.

Apple had MacOSX running as UB since the very first version and, as I read somewhere, Apple would have made the transition to x86 sooner if some IBM-er would not have persueded Apple to go for G5. So Apple was doing their homework.
 
Apple will need to push new and cool features more and more into their hardware if they want to maintain the cool factor they have.

I disagree. To a point: yes hardware will get home-users excited (while busineses want to take away any hardware that will distract employees from doing their work), but it should have an immediate function. Many laptops come with integrated SD-card readers, modems and other extras. Apple chooses to leave those options as add-ons. (E.g. why integrate only SD-card when a simple USB device offers the possibility to read cards of more sizes). Remember when Apple cut floppydrives from laptops? Even options to connect to video is only offered through a generic connector and optional cables.

But the Macintosh is about actual use, not potential benefits. Strategie seems: if immediate use affects less then a certain percentage of buyers, make it an option, otherwise add it (e.g. the remote). Simplify! USB, FireWire, built-in ethernet, those allows users to expand capabilities and way beyond what any PC manufacturer thinks would be cool to add. And Apple has always been innovative when it came to expansion: adb, AppleTalk, nuBus, scsi, usb, firewire. Even the option to boot from an external disk or boot a desktop from the disk inside a laptop, these are not just cool, these are *really* cool. For me, no integrated cam in whatever crummy pc or the ability to play a cd/dvd without booting the silly laptop compare to these features.

As a software developer, I often sit down with a customer to discuss the state of what I am building. I use my Mac and most can see through the differences enough, although at some point I need to show the product running on a PC.
On these occasions, when I know the person sitting next to me is more then an average computer user, I ask: how would you perform this task on Windows? The idea is: I am convinced the Mac is easier and I know certain tasks are cumbersome on Windows, but I want to hear if it is my lack of knowlegde or if I am seeing things right.
I have yet to hear a better answer then: "Windows is the way I am used to for doing things". They see how simple things are for me, although they seem to feel that that has more to do with my job and knowlegde of computers than the difference between the OSses.

So I disagree with hardware being what distingueshes Apple hardware from generic PC's, even when built with comparable components, so I absolutely disagree that adding more "cool" hardware is nessecay. It is the Macintosh experience. Granted: a lot of that is because there are brilliant third party developers, but it is the foundation that Apple offers.

I just think that even among Macintosh users it is underestimated how cool the Mac actually is.
 
pth-webdev said:
(E.g. why integrate only SD-card when a simple USB device offers the possibility to read cards of more sizes).

Because having add-on devices is a pain in the ass? And most card-readers today are 7-1 readers. Apple is pushing the Mac as a "digital hub" that (among other things) manages your digital photos. Yet they leave out a feature that would allow the user to move those photos to the machine easily. Instead they have to use add-ons or connect the camera directly to the computer. Are there any drawbacks of having a card-reader in a computer? No? Then how can you say that NOT having a card-reader is a good thing?

Why does Apple integrate a webcam, and not leave that as an add-on? Why is webcam so different that it should be integrated, whereas cardreader should not?

Remember when Apple cut floppydrives from laptops?

Floppies were on their way out when that happened. memorycards are getting more and more popular.
 
Evangelion said:
Because having add-on devices is a pain in the ass? And most card-readers today are 7-1 readers. Apple is pushing the Mac as a "digital hub" that (among other things) manages your digital photos. Yet they leave out a feature that would allow the user to move those photos to the machine easily. Instead they have to use add-ons or connect the camera directly to the computer. Are there any drawbacks of having a card-reader in a computer? No? Then how can you say that NOT having a card-reader is a good thing?

Apple sells as much (and if not more so) a work of art that sets on your desktop than a functional computer. Certain sacrifices must be made.
 
spetznatz said:
Very Interesting...so, G5 PowerBooks next Tuesday, then?

Still, the question this begs is: was the non-appearance of a comparable-spec chip from IBM due to technical incompetence or bloody-minded unwillingness?

sam10685 said:
WHY do people still think there will be a G5 powerbook??? APPLE ENDED THE G5 CHIP REIGN LAST YEAR BY SWITCHING TO INTEL!!! PLEASE GET THAT INTO YOUR HEADS... plus, i would think the release of the Macbook with an INTEL chip would pretty much seal the deal.

Um, I think he was joking.... :D

edit: added first quote for clarity.
 
Evangelion said:
Because having add-on devices is a pain in the ass? And most card-readers today are 7-1 readers. Apple is pushing the Mac as a "digital hub" that (among other things) manages your digital photos. Yet they leave out a feature that would allow the user to move those photos to the machine easily. Instead they have to use add-ons or connect the camera directly to the computer. Are there any drawbacks of having a card-reader in a computer? No? Then how can you say that NOT having a card-reader is a good thing?

Why does Apple integrate a webcam, and not leave that as an add-on? Why is webcam so different that it should be integrated, whereas cardreader should not?



Floppies were on their way out when that happened. memorycards are getting more and more popular.

I think the long and short of it is: a card reader can just be plugged into any USB port. And most people don't require a card reader.

I guess it's the same reason apple don't have a MIDI port on the machine, for example.
 
Then how can you say that NOT having a card-reader is a good thing?
How about, because many camera's have different card-sizes then SD-card? I mean, what good does it do you when you have a different kind of card then what your integrated reader accepts? An external device is more flexible and you most likely need one anyway.
A good camera connects directly to your computer anyway, unless you have one of those cheap no-brand models who's manufacterer are unable to add true plug&play. If they can't add that, why trust that camera at all?

You can use the same external device for several computers.

Why does Apple integrate a webcam, and not leave that as an add-on? Why is webcam so different that it should be integrated, whereas cardreader should not?
How about, because there is a direct function (iChat)? Granted, I have to make a guess here as I don't know the actual reason, but it follows the reasoning I was trying to explain. Perhaps Apple overestimates iChat, but that is another discussion (in two years you might not have asked this question). Same would go for audio out and audio in, both have been options with some Macintoshes. Also, Apple was one of the first to recognize the rise of adsl and the need for builtin ethernet for consumer-level Macs; direct function. I think that is why Apple made this decission.

Floppies were on their way out when that happened. memorycards are getting more and more popular.

True, but not entirely (while many PC users would have disagreed at the time). There is a shift in the kind of memorycard that is becoming popular. Even for SD-cards, the kind that seems to have the most support in the form of integrated readers, there seems to be smaller replacements on the rise. And even those formfactors aren't carved in stone. External devices are a safer bet then add-ons.

Not to make a plug or anything, but I use a Vosonic X-Drive II. Basically this is a device build around a harddrive and has it's own rechargeble battery and offers several options for different cards. It connects to the Mac through USB plug&play. On the road I copy memorycards by inserting them and a single push on the copy button. I can go several days, as long as I can recharge my camera. Back at home the device works as an external USB drive, but cards inserted in the slots while connected show up on the desktop as removable volumes.
This kind of connectivity only requires USB and the drivers that MacOSX already has (it works with WinXP also). No integration of any kind can come close to what this device offers me. However, this is my personal situation.
 
emotion said:
I think the long and short of it is: a card reader can just be plugged into any USB port.

External device? So much for "elegance"

And most people don't require a card reader.

Most people don't need FireWire or webcam either.
 
peharri said:
EULAs are only valid if you agree to them. One thing's for sure: if a third party installer is written, they're not going to write it such that you have to agree to Apple's EULA to install the operating system. At that point, the legality becomes a matter of the doctrine of first sale.


Actually, most manufacturers put that sticker on the plastic wrap that says something like, "By installing this software [or sometimes, opening the plastic wrap, I think] you agree to its terms and conditions."
 
pth-webdev said:
How about, because many camera's have different card-sizes then SD-card?

*sigh*.... Like I said: Card-readers today are 5-in-1 on 7-in-1 readers. That is: They can read more than one format!

An external device is more flexible and you most likely need one anyway.

So why have a trackpad? Webcam? External devices would be a lot more "flexible" than integrated devices.

A good camera connects directly to your computer anyway, unless you have one of those cheap no-brand models who's manufacterer are unable to add true plug&play. If they can't add that, why trust that camera at
all?

And if you have several memorycards, then you need to put them in to the camera and read them through the camera. Can you say "annoying"? Why yes, you can.

How about, because there is a direct function (iChat)

And there is a direct function for the memorycards as well: iPhoto. Hell, since you can save just about ANY data on those cards, they are more or less universally usable in just about everywhere!


True, but not entirely (while many PC users would have disagreed at the time). There is a shift in the kind of memorycard that is becoming popular. Even for SD-cards, the kind that seems to have the most support in the form of integrated readers, there seems to be smaller replacements on the rise. And even those formfactors aren't carved in stone. External devices are a safer bet then add-ons.

By that logic: Apple should then add ANYTHING on their computers. Those PCCARD-slots in PowerBooks? Useless, since industry is moving to ExpressCard. DVI-ports? New technologies are coming up to replace it. WIFI? New technologies are coming that are vastly superior.

Not to make a plug or anything, but I use a Vosonic X-Drive II.

And I thought that Apple is about "elegance"? And now we are required to carry around external devices to work around shortcoming in the hardware?
 
After reading 80 post I most comment.

Here we go

Apples Choice of intel? Go back 2 years and then look at PowerPC and X86, you can see apple is lacking in the laptop, and it happens there is no other choice, even AMD at this time in this market is not great.

Why not AMD, they rock,

True, AMD is great, but intel next 2 rev of chip after the 1st rev of 64bit meron, woodcrest etc etc, will be much further ahead in performance, also performance per watt, bus design and number of cores than AMD, will have. AMD is struggling with 4 cores, and its looking like a 3 or six core to and intels 4 and 8 core. AMD has pushed back it deployment of 3 / 4 cores.

You have to understand AMD and intel leap frog each other, one minute intel, next amd. so it really no to much choice. The best chip was the PowerPC, but it was not developed enough for apple, (thanks to IBM). and the PA Semi, does not have production, so that means third party chip fabs, different qualities and a high price. Intel is a safer bet.

Intel make a great partner, and they court partners with insentives and deals that no other Chip vendor do (example other types of chips, help with marketing etc).

As for apple have the same chips as PC is great, keeps things moving along, and yes it MacOS X is why I purchase my macs, it is so much better than any linux, and more apps than another unix.

there 32bit / 64 bit

does not make to much of a difference at the moment, and apple will move away from 32bit with in one year (my guess), first they need to get back in to the market and intel did not have 64bit ready, so first systems will be 32bit.

as for the guy with the E5000 sun, sweet system, hope you did not pay a high price for that, wow that is one very very exspensive computer. It such cheaper to purchase a cluster of Xserves. There is only one reason why i would chooce a 14 processor sun over 7 xserves and that is to have 14 core on one program (solaris has some wow features for loads, databases rock on this platform). but the money it cost for a 14 processor sun I can purchase (my guess new, is somewhere around $130,000 to $500,000), see how many xserve is about 16 xserves(minimum for $130,000 do the maths yourself for $500,000) each dual processor, with 4 gb ram each and 1.5 tb of HD each, now add xsan, i now have a very hot system, use 2+ as controllers I can have a more powerful server solution than the sun.
 
Evangelion said:
External device? So much for "elegance"



Most people don't need FireWire or webcam either.

But a million things can be done with firewire.

And what is more elegant than having a port that can hand;le a million uses compared with a card reader that can read, erm, just memory cards (and which ones would you support?)
 
dr_lha said:
Yes, I made an error, I meant "Mac OS" not "Mac OS X", and you're being pedantic. I edited my post above that you just quoted to correct it. I'm not really sure what your argument with me is here, but here's mine:

You cannot buy and legally install Mac OS X without owning a license to a previous Mac OS.

Pretty simple. Now tell me why I'm wrong.

But even though you must own previous software/hardware, the boxed version is a full version. It doesn't upgrade software, because you can wipe the HD and install a fresh install. Apple has shipped upgrade versions with products that got caught by a new OS X version announcement. You had to have a previous version of OS X to install.
 
Evangelion said:
I'm hoping that SOMEONE would use P.A. Semi CPU's in computers. Genesi would be my choice as a possible candidate.

I'd love to see one of those CPUs in something like a Soekris board:

http://www.soekris.com

I kinda get dreamy-eyed thinking of one of those procs on a board that small and running *BSD.

Yes, I digress. But, it's fun to sometimes. :)
 
AltiVec guru said:
The above statement is a prime example of a popular misconception. Most (if not all) of the commercial software you "purchase" is not sold to you, but licensed to you for use under specific terms. You buy a license to USE the software. You don't OWN the software. When you buy computer hardware, you do own the hardware, but you do not necessarily own any/all of the software it runs.

The license is the product you are purchasing, not the software itself.
This is a flat out lie that the software industry keeps on repeating in the hope that suckers like you will believe it.

Unless you live in a place where EULAS are actually enforceable, your software purchase is just that - a purchase. You own your one copy, and you can do whatever you want it it (other than make copies for distribution.)

I can take a Mac OS DVD and glue it to the wall as a decoration, and Apple can't stop me from doing that either.

Licenses are governed by contract law, not copyright law. And unless UCITA is the law in your state, contracts have to be signed in order to be valid. Did you sign any license agreement when you bought your copy of Mac OS?
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.