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Lets take on your second rebuttal:

It's hard to prove when you use yourself (1 PERSON!!!) or the MacRumors community as a representation of the general population that’s surveyed with defects. A majority of the folks signed up with MacRumors and subscribed to threads like this are here with the intent to complain and critique. How many folks with issues do you think found these threads with a simple search for “Iphone 5 Scratch”?

If you were to place a similar poll for Western Digital on their message boards about HDD failure rates, I’m positive you could expect a similar bias. Does that mean they produce an inferior product? Likewise, if we take this to a universal example – how about we poll US children under 5 to see if there is a Santa Claus? Does that make him real?

The fact remains: no one on this forum has reasonably proved that there’s a quality issue with the 2+ million phones circulating. However, there is evidence available that Apple utilizes industry standards for quality such as Six Sigma. With an industrial engineer like Tim Cook at the helm – do you rationally believe millions of devices were released to the public from a billion dollar corporation without an acceptable level of quality control sampling?

Based on you’re argument, a very small sample (less than 0.01% of sales) taken from a community of self entitled babies has more merit than the standard manufacturing processes and thresholds of a PROVEN world class billion dollar company? Additionally, if this was a real problem like the antenna issue - don't you think it would of came to light on actual news sources by now?

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So that there’s no confusion – I believe folks with blemishes have every right to get their phone replaced. I don’t know if quality is really a concern or not, but (AS OF NOW) there’s obviously not enough evidence to say that it should be.

I agree, my sample size is not enough. With my logic, if I were at Porsche dealer ship. After they drive two cars out, should I expect the second one to be perfect? How about third/fourth one. I understand this is a mass production product, but as I have eluded to my other responses; it is still a luxury product that cost most people money, why shouldnt apple subject to the same scrutiny as say LV?

Thank you for agreeing that I do have the right to exchange my iphones, which i will.

"Additionally, if this was a real problem like the antenna issue - don't you think it would of came to light on actual news sources by now?"
Partially because people have treated as a "cosmetic" issue? There are enough nay-sayers even here. But the point many has made is that this should not be acceptable. I pay a premium for a product that theoretically does the same thing as a HTC or a droid. I would not give them a pass, why would I for apple after I paid more?

http://news.yahoo.com/iphone-5-glit...-news-tech.html;_ylt=A2KJ3CRvAmJQ4AwAS.vQtDMD

It is frustrating and time wasting, certainly.
 
...I'd like to add that even on a brand new porsche, there is probably some sort of cosmetic (or otherwise) "defect" that you may not even see.

Plus I think your porsche example is a bit apples/oranges (pun intended). we're talking FIVE MILLION iphones sold in a few days. they're still filling orders. I think a more fair comparison would be something like a toyota corolla (in terms of production volume).

Would you accept two quarter-sized cosmetic defects on a corolla? Well, that depends on the person.

Would you expect to see these imperfections or rather be more understanding of them on a toyota corolla (mass-produced ecnono-car) versus a porsche?

I would.

I'm not saying people should not complain and replace their phones. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm not saying people should live with it. I'm not saying people are wrong or lying. I'm not saying ANYTHING except making a point about the analogy being presented.
 
...I'd like to add that even on a brand new porsche, there is probably some sort of cosmetic (or otherwise) "defect" that you may not even see.

Plus I think your porsche example is a bit apples/oranges (pun intended). we're talking FIVE MILLION iphones sold in a few days. they're still filling orders. I think a more fair comparison would be something like a toyota corolla (in terms of production volume).

Would you accept two quarter-sized cosmetic defects on a corolla? Well, that depends on the person.

Would you expect to see these imperfections or rather be more understanding of them on a toyota corolla (mass-produced ecnono-car) versus a porsche?

I would.

I'm not saying people should not complain and replace their phones. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm not saying people should live with it. I'm not saying people are wrong or lying. I'm not saying ANYTHING except making a point about the analogy being presented.

I used even a Kia before. If you paid 8000, retail, unable to discount. Because it is too HOT to discount. Maybe I just want a deal, sure, wouldn't you, if you have indeed an imperfect item.

Same analogy as before, would you accept a 4 year old fist size defect on your brand new retail priced Kia, that you can use up to 10 years. Which comes to 800 a year, same per year as your brand new in store iphone? If you would, then that's fine.

And I thank you for reading.

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I was told there wasn't going to be any math involved...

you can read the version I had prepared for myerz, few above yours.
 
I agree, my sample size is not enough. With my logic, if I were at Porsche dealer ship. After they drive two cars out, should I expect the second one to be perfect? How about third/fourth one. I understand this is a mass production product, but as I have eluded to my other responses; it is still a luxury product that cost most people money, why shouldnt apple subject to the same scrutiny as say LV?

Statistically, having 3 or 4 defective Porsches sequentially at a dealership is not a problem because these events are mutually exclusive. Say Porsche defect chance is 2%; you do not lower your chance each car you get, it’s still 2% each time – you’re just unlucky.

As for your second point, luxury product or not – it is still not “proven” that the defects are above a certain tolerance. There's no proof that Apple does or does not reach your ideal scrutiny. There is evidence however, that they do practice world class manufacturing processes and standards - if not, they wouldn't be the company they are today.

Keep in mind, you agreed that the sample size is “not enough”. An argument without proven facts is as productive as arguing religion.

Edit: Your link is from ABC which sources AllThingsD which sources the MacRumors forum ... Doesn't really prove anything does it?
 
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Statistically, having 3 or 4 defective Porsches sequentially at a dealership is not a problem because these events are mutually exclusive. Say Porsche defect chance is 2%; you do not lower your chance each car you get, it’s still 2% each time – you’re just unlucky.

As for your second point, luxury product or not – it is still not “proven” that the defects are above a certain tolerance. There's no proof that Apple does or does not reach your ideal scrutiny. There is evidence however, that they do practice world class manufacturing processes and standards - if not, they wouldn't be the company they are today.

Keep in mind, you agreed that the sample size is “not enough”. An argument without proven facts is as productive as arguing religion.


I actually am a little rusty on my statistics. I also have tried to look this up.
However, I do think I may have enough sample size even here at MacRumor. Given if they sold 5 Million this weekend. 1500 samples is enough to generalized it into something. I know the sample is not randomized.....

Yes, we may also just all be very unlucky, same factory, same setting, same #7 worker, which I can all accept, until I find that perfect one.

Edit: http://www.siliconbeat.com/2012/09/...es-man-whisked-away-by-apple-store-employees/
abc, local news.
CNET


I know you're looking for CNN or BBC.... I guess they don't really care what I am upset about. :(

I offer you one more
http://www.latimes.com/business/tec...e-5-complaints-flaws-20120924,0,3275593.story

Yes, yes. I know not national enough for you.
 
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I bet if people put as much effort into securing a replacement for an obvious bad batch or bad production run as they do into complaining about it and defending their complaints on the internets, they would be much happier with much less stress and a lot more free time.
 
Of course I know it is NOT normal. I'm just tired to people confusing the issues in the other threads.


These were brand new, opened by the sale rep in front of me, WITHOUT even leave the Apple Store.

Here is my calculation.

For all the geniuses...

Surface area of iphone
26.81 in^2 (4.87,2.31,0.3)

Surface area of 1/10 of a pencil point
(0.5mm/10/2.54/10)Pi = 0.0062in^2
0.5mm being the diameter of a typical lead mechanical pencil and 1/10 of that.

26.81/0.0062=~4300
So if my calculation and logic are correct
1/4300 of my iphone is nicked/stretched/damaged

Cheapest iphone5 $650 I paid retail.

Typical Porsche Surface area.
Approx 30000 in^2 (do your own calculation)

so If your brand new cheapest Porsche that you can find Retail for 75000
(30000/26.81*650)
has paint/widow/rim damage of 1/4300 of your total car, that you'd be okay?

Which translate into 30000*(1/4300)=6.98 in^2
Which also equal to Almost two quarter sized damage. (0.955*3.14)=3in^2

Rebuttal:
Porsche is not a fair comparison.
Response:
Fine will you accept that on your $8000 brand new car, which you saved up one year to buy?

Rebuttal:
iPhone is designed as mass produced product, it is allow to have some defects.
Response:
By personal experience it failed 100%. There are plenty of people reported 5, or 6 exchanges before getting a brand new one. I will also accept if Apple sells these as "refurbished" and/or "damaged" with a discount. 50 dollars would do. I refuse to pay full price without getting my money worth. I can damaged it all by myself without any help. Thank you very much.

Rebuttal:
Schiller: Any aluminum product may scratch or chip with use, exposing its natural silver color. That is normal.
Response: Mr. Schiller, please don't confuse the issue. Read my title. (I know it is a cheap shot, since he didnt really respond to me, nor on the same question.) These are BRAND NEW still sitting in YOUR store iPhones. I have not even taken it out for a test drive yet,they still have bows tied around them.

Rebuttal:
I will paypal you 12 cents, if you would just stop whining.
Response:
I will pay 17 dollars for your Brand New 70K retail car, if you would just stop whining.

Rebuttal:
There are problems with every single iphone since the dawn of time.
Repsonse:
Yes; however, these are based on my/people's simple inspection. The FIRST step when I spend almost a grand buying anything. These are not functional issues.

Bottom line
Numbers are universal.
I will not sit here and purchase a Porsche with any damage, esp 2 quarter size worth of anything, without INSPECTING it before I drive it off the lot.
Please focus on what went wrong in Quality control, when they failed at the first step.

Fire away. Attack me personally all you want, but follow the arguments.

He said it's normal after use. My sat in the Box, taken out in front of me by an Apple CSR.

The Foxconn employee handled it at the factory. Hence use. ;)

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LOL - one of the best comedy sketches EVER!

I wish I had four thumbs...

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LOL - one of the best comedy sketches EVER!

I wish I had four hands so I could give those...
 
"The Foxconn employee handled it at the factory. Hence use. ;)"

They probably called their moms and said I'll ship you one soon, so you dont have to pre-order. I will also make sure I dont pre-scratch yours before I put it in the box.

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I bet if people put as much effort into securing a replacement for an obvious bad batch or bad production run as they do into complaining about it and defending their complaints on the internets, they would be much happier with much less stress and a lot more free time.

Only if there is replacement to be had. None within 50 miles of me.
I've learned the hard way. I will stand there until I find the one that I deem perfect.

No stress, as I said before boss is out today. I am just tired to reading non-sequitur arguments.
 
What exactly are you trying to prove?

We all know it's not normal to get a scuffed product out of the box. Apple know it's not normal and are issuing replacement iPhones for those affected. Accidents happen.

If you're going to spend time doing maths and preparing responses to fictive rebuttals, at least do it for something that matters.
 
What exactly are you trying to prove?

We all know it's not normal to get a scuffed product out of the box. Apple know it's not normal and are issuing replacement iPhones for those affected. Accidents happen.

If you're going to spend time doing maths and preparing responses to fictive rebuttals, at least do it for something that matters.

Prove that people should not dismiss people making comments as whiners. Because they do have a point.

Saying that I'm unlucky as rest of people who are not happy with this shipment.

Saying that I think I should be offered a discount.

Saying that you would and should not be happy if you received an imperfect iphone. You can live with it, but I can and I will get a replacement.
 
Hey guess what!! I ordered my iphone really early in the morning on the 14th and it wont get here for 3 weeks because something out of my control happened to my order! Keep complaining about your pencil sized scratch bro...
 
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