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Disagree / Dislike reaction needed! :)
- Thread starter beanbaguk
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And yet you can spam "Like" on positive Apple "rah rah" stories all you like - that doesn't serve a purpose, even on News stories. Your explanation doesn't actually do anything to explain why Disagree is limited (affecting only people who aren't rabid fanboys) but Like is not. So basically Apple fanboys can push comments to the top, anyone who actually even considers negative thoughts toward Apple is suppressed.
Your explanation doesn't help. It's also a lie.
If anything, your explanation outlays why all reactions should be limited, or simply not exist.
If you like, you should comment with an explanation rather than use a juvenile icon. IMHO.
^^ Where's the dislike button when you need it? 😁😁😁😁
this is a valid comment, provided someone else hasn't already posted the same reason for the disapproval. More frequently than not, there are most often already just one or two reasons for something being disagreed about.
With a disagree/downvote button, on person can explain the reason for disagreeing, multiplied by the number of thumbs down. Without the downvote button, you end up with thread full of "me too" posts.
I've yet to ever see a legitimate reason to not have downvote buttons for a forum, be it macrumors or anywhere. But I'm certainly open to listen and try to understand the arguement from the other side.
I prefer a technical solution. There should be no disagree reaction; there should be a disagree button. A dialog would open requiring the user to explain the disagreement. Then, people could register an agree reaction to the disagreement.
That ain't gonna happen. So, we have to pick our poison.
Just having an agree reaction without a disagree one gives the reader the wrong impression of the general sentiment. There will be an obvious bias since people will resist the angry reaction to register disagreement. It seriously diminishes the value of the agree reaction. All that seems to be left is the subtle impression that people in the community are a generally nice bunch. Just look at everyone cheering each other on. (Not a completely bad thing.)
Getting rid of the agree reaction would be a loss. There is often nothing to add when you're in agreement. People want some way to express agreement without a "me too" post. There would be a noticeable loss of perceived good will if the agree reaction were eliminated.
Providing a disagree reaction would produce a more negative community. If a post of mine received such a reaction and the person didn't bother explaining what part of my post they disagreed with, I would have perceived that as rude or just lazy. "If you don't have something nice to say, then say nothing at all." If someone explained their disagreement, then well, that's nice.
Adding a disagree reaction is my least favorite option. So then, it's down to whether I prefer having an agree reaction or not having it. I prefer having it since I value the mood more than avoiding being misled about the general sentiment of opinion.
Status quo for me.
That ain't gonna happen. So, we have to pick our poison.
Just having an agree reaction without a disagree one gives the reader the wrong impression of the general sentiment. There will be an obvious bias since people will resist the angry reaction to register disagreement. It seriously diminishes the value of the agree reaction. All that seems to be left is the subtle impression that people in the community are a generally nice bunch. Just look at everyone cheering each other on. (Not a completely bad thing.)
Getting rid of the agree reaction would be a loss. There is often nothing to add when you're in agreement. People want some way to express agreement without a "me too" post. There would be a noticeable loss of perceived good will if the agree reaction were eliminated.
Providing a disagree reaction would produce a more negative community. If a post of mine received such a reaction and the person didn't bother explaining what part of my post they disagreed with, I would have perceived that as rude or just lazy. "If you don't have something nice to say, then say nothing at all." If someone explained their disagreement, then well, that's nice.
Adding a disagree reaction is my least favorite option. So then, it's down to whether I prefer having an agree reaction or not having it. I prefer having it since I value the mood more than avoiding being misled about the general sentiment of opinion.
Status quo for me.
Not calling out @svenmany but I have seen this sentiment before. Why is it that a "like" as a way to avoid "me too" posts is deemed acceptable, even good etiquette, when others have mirrored your sentiment with text in a reply post but using "disagree" under the same circumstances is not.?
Example that no one seems to have an issue with:
Member A: Can't wait for the new iPhone to be released.
Member B: REPLIES: I agree, the new phone looks great.
Member C: Emotes "like" with A & B instead of mirroring Member B's comment.
Example that some people feel is inflammatory or rude:
Member A: I feel the upcoming iPhone is a mediocre upgrade, I'm going to skip it.
Member B: REPLIES: I'm not sure why you feel that way the new features look great.
Member C: Emotes "disagree" with A and "likes" member B's reply.
Why is this example any different from the first? Why should member C need to mirror the reply of member B in order to register their opinion of member A's post? IMHO people want (and should have) a way to express disagreement without a "me too" post.
Edited to better reflect reaction titles/names and spelling.
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Imagine spending so much time talking about internet reactions. Touch grass.
I am glad no one can disagree with me without replying
Hard to disagree since you didn't make an assertion or express an opinion.
If you had posted "This topic is not sufficiently interesting to justify continued discussion.", I would have disagreed. Assuming that's what you meant...I find it an interesting topic that gets me thinking. I'm still pondering @icanhazmac's post.
One thing I'll add is that the positive reaction is labeled "Like", not "Agree". I often click like when I don't fully agree. I like well explained opinions that are presented respectfully. Before focusing on @icanhazmac's post, that distinction never occurred to me.
I realize now that I'm more focused on Like/Dislike and the consequences and responsibilities when expressing either. @icanhazmac's post seemed to focus more on Agree/Disagree. I don't know if I agree with their point (yet), but I'd like to click "Like" to their post, but I suspect it will be misinterpreted as "Agree".
This idea of a thumbs down, would be most beneficial for political type posts, so readers could signal their disagreement without having to post a counter, but MRs no longer allows political posts, at least not a PRSI forum so Imo, it’s a mute point. Of note, I don’t bother scanning MRs political news, it’s just not worth it based on the conditions imposed by site rules and moderators. There are other better places for political discussions.
IMO for other type posts it is less beneficial and more divisive.
Example, I say I like Guardians of the Galaxy or I explain how to clean install your OS, and someone puts a thumbs down. This is worthless. It would be much better for the person who posted the thumbs down to explain in a post, why they disagree, instead of just giving it a thumbs down, especially for a technical description someone disagrees with.
IMO for other type posts it is less beneficial and more divisive.
Example, I say I like Guardians of the Galaxy or I explain how to clean install your OS, and someone puts a thumbs down. This is worthless. It would be much better for the person who posted the thumbs down to explain in a post, why they disagree, instead of just giving it a thumbs down, especially for a technical description someone disagrees with.
Interesting thread to ponder, mostly reminds me that personally I find the upvote/downvote system of other places the most effective and democratic. Not that I have a big problem w/ Macrumors’ decisions to keep things how they are, it’s more of a “fun” entertainment site (info-tainment on a good day) and it’s censored in ways that other places are not, which is not a big deal and the owners’ decision. As much as I am anti-censorship and pro-free-speech, we only need to peek briefly into the FB or Youtube comments to see the grotesque content there, to understand why some places elect to have some form of censorship, or one might call it some bare minimum of polite behavior expectation, implemented and enforced.
About the like button, having a healthy aversion to the Facebook, Instagram, etc. more “engagement” at any cost business model, MR’s system does remind me of FB’s system, it’s likely they want to get people more on a “me too” level with emoji while minimizing discord, so I have mixed feelings about whether MR should add a dislike button. I’m not going to let it bother me either way though, and come to think of it, the fact that they do have it for certain front-page articles, seems like a reasonable compromise.
About the like button, having a healthy aversion to the Facebook, Instagram, etc. more “engagement” at any cost business model, MR’s system does remind me of FB’s system, it’s likely they want to get people more on a “me too” level with emoji while minimizing discord, so I have mixed feelings about whether MR should add a dislike button. I’m not going to let it bother me either way though, and come to think of it, the fact that they do have it for certain front-page articles, seems like a reasonable compromise.
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My position on these sort of topics, is that if you're going to have a button where you like a post. Then you ought to have a button to state that you dislike (or disagree) with a post. Its more like the thumbs up/thumbs down button on reddit.
If we’re talking about like/dislike, it’s like watching a play. If you like it, you should applaud; if you don’t like it, you should not boo.
If we’re talking about agree/disagree, then the goal should be to relay information. Both of these reactions are poor substitutes for an actual post. However, a disagree reaction is more lacking. Consider “red is the best color”. If someone signals agreement, it’s reasonably safe to conclude they think red is the best color. If someone signals disagreement, you’re left wondering which color they think is best. My reasoning is more complex than that since most posts make more than one point and are more nuanced, but that’s the gist of it.
If we’re talking about agree/disagree, then the goal should be to relay information. Both of these reactions are poor substitutes for an actual post. However, a disagree reaction is more lacking. Consider “red is the best color”. If someone signals agreement, it’s reasonably safe to conclude they think red is the best color. If someone signals disagreement, you’re left wondering which color they think is best. My reasoning is more complex than that since most posts make more than one point and are more nuanced, but that’s the gist of it.
More like reviewing a play.p
If this is to be done at all maybe it’s better to have like and dislike. Dislike shouldn’t be in red though because that symbolizes anger.
I would prefer NOT to have either a Like or a Dislike button. But if you have to have one, then include the other for fairness.
In my thinking, if you agree with or like a post, nothing needs to be said unless you have more to add to the discussion.
If you disagree or don't like, then you should share your disagreement.
Youtube has a Thumbs Up/Like because it's part of a monetization scheme to encourage posting and therefore selling more ads and making money, and it could involve a million or more viewers.
Youtube has a Dislike, but the results are only available to Youtube and the Poster, not the public. Perhaps that also affects monetization.
It's a totally different process than here on MR, where presumably people aren't being paid to comment and we're talking dozens to hundreds of readers, not 5 or 6 digits. This is a place to collect information and learn as we tap into the expertise of a community of Apple users. People post because they have something to say that might be interesting to others, not just to keep the money flowing.
Like and Dislike are way too imprecise to be useful in learning and understanding products and features/bugs or anything else that happens here.
In my thinking, if you agree with or like a post, nothing needs to be said unless you have more to add to the discussion.
If you disagree or don't like, then you should share your disagreement.
Youtube has a Thumbs Up/Like because it's part of a monetization scheme to encourage posting and therefore selling more ads and making money, and it could involve a million or more viewers.
Youtube has a Dislike, but the results are only available to Youtube and the Poster, not the public. Perhaps that also affects monetization.
It's a totally different process than here on MR, where presumably people aren't being paid to comment and we're talking dozens to hundreds of readers, not 5 or 6 digits. This is a place to collect information and learn as we tap into the expertise of a community of Apple users. People post because they have something to say that might be interesting to others, not just to keep the money flowing.
Like and Dislike are way too imprecise to be useful in learning and understanding products and features/bugs or anything else that happens here.
Very good points —^ I tend to agree, with all the above post. It also reminds me that this site grew and prospered through many years with the above described model. Others can correct my limited memory, but it seems they only added the like and other buttons in the last 2-3 years…(?)
That would be analogous to a person expressing agreement or disagreement with a post. A reviewer doesn’t just give a thumbs up or down without explaining why.
Why? If someone posts for example: “the iPhone 14 is the worst phone ever released by apple” there might be people who like or agree and there may be people who disagree.
Shouldn’t the poster explain? Why would someone who disagrees with a strawman like this have to explain why they disagreed?
Shouldn’t the poster who liked the post explain themselves as well?
It all depends on the objectives of the admins for the forum.
On many forums, the "like" button is a way to mitigate a lot of literal "I agree" posts. When you agree, there's often little to add - you're presumably agreeing with what has already been stated. If you do want to add something, you post.
The reason we don't see a lot of literal "I disagree" posts is most people who disagree and would be willing to post "I disagree" want to express what they disagree about. If users agree with their "disagreement", then they can "like" the "disagreement". If the don't want to take the time to articulate what they disagree about, then their opinion of "disagreement" isn't worth sharing. "I disagree" does not increase user engagement - it actually tends to deter user engagement by discouraging discussion.
The general forums current arrangement encourages user engagement, which is what MacRumors is primarily after.
MacRumors News articles are generally the worst comments. It's a flood of regulars trying to be "first" and make a "witty" comment (sometimes they are, most often they are not) that will get 50 "Likes" (there are users here with a thousand received "likes" who never contribute anything meaningful, just some variation of "Apple sucks"). News article comments do not encourage actual discussions or critical thinking, but rather a virtual food-fight (and why it's frustrating that MacRumors has a zero-tolerance policy on allowing separate forum discussions on current "news" topics where people could have, you know, actual discussions).
My gripe about the buttons in the news articles, particularly "disagree" button is that it doesn't break it down by type. A comment with 50 reactions looks pretty much the same if it's 5 agrees and 45 disagrees, or 45 agrees and 5 agrees. Having to stop and click the reactions score to see what is what makes it all even more meaningless, because no one is going to regularly do that.
On many forums, the "like" button is a way to mitigate a lot of literal "I agree" posts. When you agree, there's often little to add - you're presumably agreeing with what has already been stated. If you do want to add something, you post.
The reason we don't see a lot of literal "I disagree" posts is most people who disagree and would be willing to post "I disagree" want to express what they disagree about. If users agree with their "disagreement", then they can "like" the "disagreement". If the don't want to take the time to articulate what they disagree about, then their opinion of "disagreement" isn't worth sharing. "I disagree" does not increase user engagement - it actually tends to deter user engagement by discouraging discussion.
The general forums current arrangement encourages user engagement, which is what MacRumors is primarily after.
MacRumors News articles are generally the worst comments. It's a flood of regulars trying to be "first" and make a "witty" comment (sometimes they are, most often they are not) that will get 50 "Likes" (there are users here with a thousand received "likes" who never contribute anything meaningful, just some variation of "Apple sucks"). News article comments do not encourage actual discussions or critical thinking, but rather a virtual food-fight (and why it's frustrating that MacRumors has a zero-tolerance policy on allowing separate forum discussions on current "news" topics where people could have, you know, actual discussions).
My gripe about the buttons in the news articles, particularly "disagree" button is that it doesn't break it down by type. A comment with 50 reactions looks pretty much the same if it's 5 agrees and 45 disagrees, or 45 agrees and 5 agrees. Having to stop and click the reactions score to see what is what makes it all even more meaningless, because no one is going to regularly do that.
Yes. It's a lazy post that adds so little value to any conversation. It's the kind of post I wish people would just ignore.
A simple thumbs down to that post is impossible to interpret. Does the person mean to say that the iPhone 14 is not the worst phone? Or do they mean to say that the 13 was the worst phone? Or do they mean to say that the 14 is the best phone? Or do they mean "stop being inflammatory and explain yourself". A thumbs down cries out for an explanation.
There is so much discord and misunderstanding from online disagreement. I wish everyone would make the effort to minimize this by explaining exactly what they are disagreeing with. Given that wish, adding a disagree reaction is a step in the wrong direction.
I'll replace "liked" with "agreed with" in your question. I hope people don't like such a post even if they agree with it.
Everyone should explain themself if they have something to add beyond what they are agreeing with. The post mentioned has so little content that any agreement would likely have something to add.
One could argue that someone who agrees precisely with a post and has nothing more to add should say as much, explaining the nature of their agreement. That's the "me too" post some people think adds little to no value. I'm not sure what I think about that. Forcing people to make a post expressing precise agreement might motivate them to think more carefully and realize they do have something to add. But, I suspect we're all too lazy to realize that benefit.
The dislike button would be more palatable and therefore less threatening and annoying if it were blue.
Good example of a well used disagree button.
It’s still obnoxious and annoying to get a disagree reaction with no response. Common courtesy: understand the red disagree is inflaming and might possibly ruin the person’s day, and so leave a comment responding why you disagree.
(I still find the disagree button threatening and should not be around, but I’m a sensitive soul, though I seemed thick skinned… and it hurt that my friends never stood down-w… I’ll stop)
Yeah, they should explain in both cases if they have something productive to say…. But nobody’s day is going to be made worse from a like reaction, yet seeing a few big red disagrees with no follow-up could make people feel bad.
So, no explanation needed for a like, but it’s a nicety to explain the big red thumbs down.