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your posts are quite condescending and somewhat rude. But simply put, many of us find we load websites and can't view them on the ipad. We have to put down the ipad and fire up the android and or pc. This is what's happening today when we use the device.

Agreed. That is what's happening today.

As businesses expunge the Flash from their websites, this will happen less and less. At some point in the future, only hobbyist sites will have Flash code on them.

Not looking for a 10 page rant from you about why i'm wrong or i should write a letter informing the website they need to make apple apps for me.

There is no right or wrong. In 2007, Apple made a decision with their iOS devices. That decision, coupled with the phenomenal success of their iOS devices, means that Flash is in decline.

Bottom line is, this happens often that we can't view the website we want to on our Ipads. To me, and a few others here. So, when are you going to stop denying it on our behalf?

We all agree that Flash code will not run on iOS devices. iOS device browsers are Flash-free.

And yes, my android runs every site i've thrown at it so far. You can't write 10 pages telling me otherwise.

I can provide URLs that will not run on your Android device. You will have to use logmeinignition on your PC to view those webpages.

its a limited device, today, right now, and we deal with this quite often.

Apple knew this when they made the decision to have their iOS device browsers be Flash-free. They knew there would be a transition period while Flash code is removed from websites. They knew it would take years to happen.

Apple realized something that many people had already noticed: Flash works poorly for users who need accessibility aids. Users who need to adapt their browser's behavior to navigate on the web were SOL. Ultimately, this became an intolerable problem for Apple.

Apple's decision will eventually have Flash disappear from the web. The stupendous commercial success of the iOS devices will accelerate that transition.

I understand your concern about limitations, but it's necessary to look from a larger perspective to understand Apple's decision. In the long run, the only way to solve the accessibility problem was to flush Flash.

Sometimes I logmeinignition to my PC just to deal. So yeah we do find workarounds, but it is not convenient to deal with.

We all agree on your frustrations in browsing. Do you now understand why Apple deliberately made their iOS devices have this limitation?

One final point: individuals can have an impact on accelerating the transition to the web being Flash-free. We can all minimize the frustration that you and other users have in accessing the web today. Those efforts will also help minimize the frustration of users who need accessibility aids to browse the web.

Someday, all people -- regardless of their abilities -- will be able to access the full web. When that day comes, we can all celebrate.

Agreed?
 
This whole thread is an argument about things that no longer matter.

It's like debating VHS vs. Beta, HDDVD vs. Blu Ray.

The issue has already been decided, guys. Get over it.
 
You seem to be angry about something, @Darn. AFAICT, you think that you are entitled to be able to run your Flash website http://darngooddesign.com on every computer, including iOS computers.

That presumption was a mistake. Flash fails on supporting adaptability, and that's reason enough to flush it as a protocol.

@Darn: Flash will never run on iOS machines. It never has run there, and it never will. The only real question: how much longer are you going to continue to complain about it?

I'm not angry about anything, nor am I complaining. I do not feel that I am entitled to anything. However, I am entertained that you chose a Flash alternative that doesn't work in Apple's browser which has a high penetration. So enjoy your brave new world of code incompatibilities and browser rendering issues.

Apple realized something that many people had already noticed: Flash works poorly for users who need accessibility aids. Users who need to adapt their browser's behavior to navigate on the web were SOL. Ultimately, this became an intolerable problem for Apple.

Regardless of what Steve Jobs wrote in that PR piece, accessibility had nothing to do with their decision. If it were they would have built a left-handed/right-handed toggle into an OS which is dynamic at its foundation.
 
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I'm not angry about anything, nor am I complaining. I do not feel that I am entitled to anything. However, I am entertained that you chose a Flash alternative that doesn't work in Apple's browser which has a high penetration. So enjoy your brave new world of code incompatibilities and browser rendering issues.

Thanks for sharing! For what it's worth, you do sound as if you are rather angry.

When are you going to make your webpage darngooddesign.com work with iOS devices?

Regardless of what Steve Jobs wrote in that PR piece,

Are you talking about "Thoughts on Flash"? That document doesn't read at all like a PR piece. It's a rather dense document discussing both specific technical and high-level architectural issues. You may not agree with some of those arguments, but some dismissive pronouncement sans details is quite inappropriate.

accessibility had nothing to do with their decision. If it were they would have built a left-handed/right-handed toggle into an OS which is dynamic at its foundation.

I'll take this as a joke. Very funny, @darn. :confused:

Apple does indeed have a priority on accessibility. It is something that's clearly important to Jobs and something clearly part of the fabric of the company. From the folk I've worked with who use accessibility aids, they are delighted with how they work on the iPad.

Flash and accessibility are mutually incompatible. The only way to make an accessible web is to flush Flash. Do you agree with that, Darn? I would welcome a serious discussion on this topic.
 
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Thanks for sharing! For what it's worth, you do sound as if you are rather angry.

When are you going to make your webpage darngooddesign.com work with iOS devices?

I'll get around to it at some point.

Are you talking about "Thoughts on Flash"? That document doesn't read at all like a PR piece. It's a rather dense document discussing both specific technical and high-level architectural issues. You may not agree with some of those arguments, but some dismissive pronouncement sans details is quite inappropriate.

Its a PR piece written at a time when everyone was giving Aple grief over Flash. Its a well written piece but its PR.

I'll take this as a joke. Very funny, @darn. :confused:

Apple does indeed have a priority on accessibility. It is something that's clearly important to Jobs and something clearly part of the fabric of the company. From the folk I've worked with who use accessibility aids, they are delighted with how they work on the iPad.

Flash and accessibility are mutually incompatible. The only way to make an accessible web is to flush Flash. Do you agree with that, Darn? I would welcome a serious discussion on this topic.

Please, if Apple really cared about accessibility they would have built interface reflection into the iPhone OS from the get go so left handed people have he same ease as right handed. Five years down and they haven't fixed that issue is lazy for a company that cares about accessibility.
 
I'll get around to it at some point

Good that it's on your radar. WRT Flash and accessibility, please answer the question I asked you in the last message:

Flash and accessibility are mutually incompatible. The only way to make an accessible web is to flush Flash. Do you agree with that, Darn? I would welcome a serious discussion on this topic.

If you don't agree, please paint us a brief picture on how we get to an accessible web without flushing Flash. Thanks!

Are you talking about "Thoughts on Flash"? That document doesn't read at all like a PR piece. It's a rather dense document discussing both specific technical and high-level architectural issues. You may not agree with some of those arguments, but some dismissive pronouncement sans details is quite inappropriate.
Its a PR piece written at a time when everyone was giving Aple grief over Flash. Its a well written piece but its PR.

I asked you to do something other than make a superficial pronouncement, and you just repeated yourself. Can you do anything different than that?

Please, if Apple really cared about accessibility they would have built interface reflection into the iPhone OS from the get go so left handed people have he same ease as right handed. Five years down and they haven't fixed that issue is lazy for a company that cares about accessibility.

Sorry. It still reads like a joke, but I know you are a professional. I am confused. Can you please provide a reference or two demonstrating that this is actually a real concern for anyone in the accessibility community?

What we did notice was that you avoided my question: Do you see any way to make the web accessible for all without flushing Flash?
 
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Sorry. It still reads like a joke, but I know you are a professional. I am confused. Can you please provide a reference or two demonstrating that this is actually a real concern for anyone in the accessibility community?

Something as simple as the slide to unlock, which is more comfortable to slide when the iPhone is held in your right hand as opposed to your left hand; it is more comfortable to active the slide to unlock left to right as opposed to right to left. Another example is the edit button on the bookmarks page, which is more comfortable to hit with your thumb when held in your right hand. These issues only really appear when you operate you iPhone with a single hand.

Then again, I also think the volume rocker should be contextual to the device's orientation.

I can make it mostly accessible. You don't need a screen reader if the swf elements do voice overs for example. But the simple truth is that none of my clients ever said make this site accessible for the blind.
 
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I would be content to never see flash ever again in my life. Flash is for web designers, not web programmers.

I used it back in the late '90s early 2000's but it was mainly to con perspective clients. Not my choice, my employers.

I've moved on, so should everyone else.

The main reason that flash video is still around is that it supports in-video advertising which is not very functional in HTML5.

Yeah, the advertisers win again ;)
 
Ok, let's put an end to this discussion once and for all.

The iPhone came out in 2007. Adobe did not make a proper mobile version of flas and release it until 2011. 4 years, I say again 4 years.

Even if Apple wanted to put flash on the iPhone and iPad they couldn't,because, wait for it, here it comes, IT DID NOT EXIST, ADOBE DIDN'T HAVE IT BUILT.

So, 4 years to make a plugin/subsystem for a mobile device, you want this on your phone?

Enough said.
 
This whole thread is an argument about things that no longer matter.

It's like debating VHS vs. Beta, HDDVD vs. Blu Ray.

The issue has already been decided, guys. Get over it.

That would be a fair comparison to make if there were still many films that are only on Betamax/VHS with no hope of them being converted to BluRay.
So the only way to enjoy the films you want is to still keep a video recorder in the home, or just watch other films and forget about the old ones you liked.
 
That would be a fair comparison to make if there were still many films that are only on Betamax/VHS with no hope of them being converted to BluRay.
So the only way to enjoy the films you want is to still keep a video recorder in the home, or just watch other films and forget about the old ones you liked.

Then it's a fair comparison to make because this is exactly the case. LPs are another example - the amount of music on vinyl completely dwarfs what's available on CD and in the iTunes store and most of it will never be reissued in a digital format.

And to extend the analogy, the optimal solution isn't to force every audio manufacturer to include a turntable and pre-amp, it's to convert the content to formats which have a lower barrier to entry.
 
Flash = Geocities

OK, I know that that was not flash based at all. However, when I hear Flash, I think Pizzazz, and that makes me think of the old Geocities sites - commemorated on its anniversary by xkcd. Look at the list of awesome things that were on that page: http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=47076

I can't put my finger on why it reminds me of flash other that the poor design decisions. Like when you go to a web site that uses flash with an unsupported iOS device and the website gives you a link to update your (non-existent) flash.
 
OK, I know that that was not flash based at all. However, when I hear Flash, I think Pizzazz, and that makes me think of the old Geocities sites - commemorated on its anniversary by xkcd. Look at the list of awesome things that were on that page: http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=47076

I can't put my finger on why it reminds me of flash other that the poor design decisions. Like when you go to a web site that uses flash with an unsupported iOS device and the website gives you a link to update your (non-existent) flash.

I think the Flash = Geocities is the perfect analogy.
 
Sorry. It still reads like a joke, but I know you are a professional. I am confused. Can you please provide a reference or two demonstrating that this is actually a real concern for anyone in the accessibility community?
Something as simple as the slide to unlock, which is more comfortable to slide when the iPhone is held in your right hand as opposed to your left hand; it is more comfortable to active the slide to unlock left to right as opposed to right to left. Another example is the edit button on the bookmarks page, which is more comfortable to hit with your thumb when held in your right hand. These issues only really appear when you operate you iPhone with a single hand.

In other words, you have absolutely no references -- no formal papers or not even a blog article -- that this is actually a real concern for anyone in the accessibility community. It is just a joke.

Regardless of what Steve Jobs wrote in that PR piece, accessibility had nothing to do with their decision. If it were they would have built a left-handed/right-handed toggle into an OS which is dynamic at its foundation.

And that joke is the "reason" for the blanket statement that Apple doesn't care about accessibility. Your house of cards just came tumbling down. :eek:

I can make it mostly accessible. You don't need a screen reader if the swf elements do voice overs for example.

If an individual business is built to be accessible to customers in wheelchairs, does that mean that every business in the community is wheelchair-accessible?

If individual businesses all spec and design their building's accessibility in an ad hoc manner, how well will accessibility work in the community as a whole?

Apple lists all of the accessibility widgets provided in the iPad in the user manual: chapter 21 in the current manual for iOS 4.3.

Could some Flash app code and serve up all of those accessibility widgets in its app? Maybe. Assuming that Flash has access to the APIs -- which is by no means a certainty -- it would be a lot of code for an individual Flash app to contain. It would take a lot of work for the individual developers to ensure that all that code behaved flawlessly with his app. I don't want to even think about how different developers would ensure that their accessibility adapters would work the same way in their individual Flash apps. :confused:

Should that Flash app be able to access the accessibility options that an individual has specified? No. Absolutely not. If an app could access that information, it could harvest that information and abuse it. How an individual has the accessibility widgets configured is personal and private information. To maintain privacy of this information, individual apps (including your hypothetical Flash app) cannot have access to it. But if the app can't know which accessibility routines to use, how can the content be served up with accessibility?

These are two monster problems. As far as I can tell, both of them are problematic. Even if Flash developers and their clients were highly motivated to provide accessibility in a single app, it's extremely difficult to do. And let's not even think about the aggregate user experience of a bunch of Flash apps each implementing accessibility in their own ad hoc fashion.

I liked the way you said it: mostly accessible. Accessible in sort of a half-assed way. A highly-motivated Flash developer working for a highly-motivated client could do no better than make a half-assed implementation of accessibility in a Flash app.

But the simple truth is that none of my clients ever said make this site accessible for the blind.

That's a brilliant observation. You add a dimension to the "lowest common denominator" argument that Jobs discussed in his sixth point in the Thoughts on Flash memo. Not only is the Flash platform the lowest common denominator of what's available on all platforms, but clients are only motivated to provide the lowest common denominator in their app functionality. Resources will always be limited. As a practical matter, accessibility adaptations would never make the feature list.

While I doubt that Apple will ever make a 2.0 version of the "Thoughts on Flash" memo, your point would definitely be worthy of inclusion in an updated version of that essay. Cool. :cool:

Our attention now turns to the pink elephant who has been patiently dancing in the corner:

Do you see any way to make the web accessible for all without flushing Flash?

Ok, let's put an end to this discussion once and for all.

In the middle of this discussion, I realized that Flash enthusiasts didn't really understand the fundamental architectural limitation of Flash -- and why Apple made the strategic decision to have iOS devices be Flash-free. In short, they never read the memo or understand the most important reason highlighted there.

From @darngooddesign's contribution above, we just identified a new reason why accessibility and Flash are mutually incompatible: the economics of the individual client. I think that's a valuable idea for everyone in this thread to understand. As far as I can tell, individual clients will never put a priority on the accessibility of their website. Since resources will always be scarce, how could we ever ensure accessibility across the entire web?

The answer seems pretty clear: have a standardized method for data to be sent to the client (HTML), and send the data in a transparent fashion. If the user wants any accessibility widgets to be applied to the clients data, have him turn on those options and have his web browser apply them to the data. Clients just have to provide transparent data (free of Flash or other opaque data presentations) to have websites be accessible. If all websites are Flash-free, then all websites will be accessible.

Apple has committed tremendous resources to accessibility on their laptop, desktop, and iOS machines. As part of the initiative, they realized an interesting thing: the value of that work will be enhanced as the entire web shifts to being Flash-free. Brilliant.
 
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You guys don't want Flash because your owner told you you don't want it but that's not good enough for you numbsculls. You don't want anyone to have it if you cant have it even though you think you don't want it.
 
We were on vacation over the past week and had our iPad 2 with us. When trying to find out where we would go for dinner, we would look up various restaurant menus to pick the best one for us. Many of these restaurant websites required Flash to view them. Sure, you can point the finger at the websites all you want, but as an end user of an iPad, I am the one who lost out at the end of the day.
 
Once the new ipad-friendly flash video rolls out, I'm perfectly happy without native flash on my ipad. If I really really need to see a flash based website (idk when that happenee last time though), i use iSwifter browser which is excellent.
 
This thread is laughable (and no, I haven't read all 11 pages). It'll be interesting to look back when Flash is dead in a few years. :D

And no, I don't want Flash.
 
Tell you what...................

Have two models of the iPad in the Apple store for the same price.

Model 1 does not play flash.
Model 2 does play flash fine.

Let's see how many people would deliberately choose to pick the one that does not play flash.

2% of people?

Flash DOESN'T play fine, that's the whole point.
 
I do miss some things on my iPad, like the odd flash app or chatroom, but I like the fact apple is forcing people to change away from flash. Just wish some things would switch sooner rather than later!
 
Adobe has been working with every android manufacturer, not to mention RIM, to get flash working flawlessly on their systems for what, three years? From what I've seen though, I still don't want it mucking up my systems. I've even stopped installing flash on new systems installs.
 
For me, it boils down to this: Whether I open a website on my notebook or my desktop or my mobile device, I want the site to look the same, as it was designed by its author. I don't give a ******* what SJ or anyone else thinks about outdated technologies or whatever. The websites are what they are right now. And I want them to be displayed as such, in every browser that I use.
 
I agree with you, and I think steve jobs does too - just buy one of the many available systems that do have flash installed.
 
For me, it boils down to this: Whether I open a website on my notebook or my desktop or my mobile device, I want the site to look the same, as it was designed by its author. I don't give a ******* what SJ or anyone else thinks about outdated technologies or whatever. The websites are what they are right now. And I want them to be displayed as such, in every browser that I use.

Good luck with that. It's never, ever been the case. But still, good luck with that. :rolleyes:
 
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