Do you have any issues with audio on the Mac Mini?

[boomspot]

I just set up my refurbished i7/256/8GB Mini and haven’t had any audio issues yet. I’m waiting on a Torx TS6 screw driver so I can install my 32GB upgrade but am surprised how well this thing runs on 8GB of RAM. I’ve been mixing a song in Pro Tools 2018 with a UA Apollo Thunderbolt 2 interface and its super smooth. I’m using WiFi, Bluetooth, and a ton of different USB devices. After spending weeks here reading about issues I was expecting the worst. So far so good!

B

 

[Marco Klobas]

Wild theory: This only happens on audio interfaces with inputs. Anecdotal evidence has led me to believe the issue doesn't exist on USB DACs which only have audio outs. I have yet to test this on my own, but I plan to shortly.

I experience audio dropout with a DAC (output only) on a Mac mini 2018. The same DAC with a Mac mini 2014 using the same OS (Mojave) didn't have any dropouts.

 

[Duncan68]

Wild theory: This only happens on audio interfaces with inputs. Anecdotal evidence has led me to believe the issue doesn't exist on USB DACs which only have audio outs. I have yet to test this on my own, but I plan to shortly.

I have a USB DAC (Schiit Modi Multibit, output only) in use with a 2018 Mac mini and I get dropouts. The same equipment did not get dropouts when used with a 2017 MacBook 12".

 

[Marco Klobas]

Tired of waiting an Apple fix for the Mac mini USB 2 audio dropouts issue, I've chosen – as suggested on RME forum – the Thunderbolt 3 Dock workaround.

I got a OWC Thunderbolt 3 Dock and connected to it my RME Babyface Pro and my DAC (Bryston DAC-2). So far so good: no dropouts at all.

Happy to have found a solution (thanks to RME forum support, BTW), disappointed at Apple for neglecting pro users.

Regardless the workaround, I really hope Apple will fix this eventually.

 

[fastlanephil]

I remember going through USB audio hell back when Apple rewrote their USB stack in El Cap. If I were a gambling man, I'd put money on this being some confluence of that rewrite (re)rearing its ugly head in conjunction with the T2. This only the second time that Apple has deployed the T2 in a USB A equipped machine, and I suspect that the MM has already sold more units than the iMP to date (i.e., more beta testers for Apple).

Hopefully Apple will have the T2 straightened out for the next generation iMac. Surely for the upcoming Mac Pro. Maybe also by then bargains on used i7 2018 Mac Minis.

 

[dspdoc]

Hello. I wrote the Reddit thread which AppleInsider eventually picked up on. I'll try explaining what I know so far.

1) It's a high-priority bug, which Apple has been aware of for quite a while. Affects all Macs running the HS + spectre/meltdown patch, but rarely appears in non-T2 macs, which seem to be all affected*
*all apart from iMac Pro, as far as I tested.

2) Personally confirmed the bug on 6 2018 machines so far, not counting the ones friends and colleagues also confirmed, all running 10.14.3, with several different soundcards from different manufacturers (USB2/USB3)

3) The bug is deep inside the kernel, unfixable by interface manufacturers, and is independent of the application that's running and load on the CPU.
the Time and Location daemons are not the cause, they merely trigger the faulty line of code in the kernel and cause pauseAudioEngine().


What's below here is pure conjecture, I am definitely not qualified to speak about the internal workings of MacOS, but I have been reading quite a lot on the topic and I may have found some correlation.


The T2, amongst other things, manages ins/outs, including the USB ports. Which means it also handles USB clocking. I believe there is a hardware issue which introduces significant enough amounts of jitter to cause dropouts when using audio interfaces which transmit audio back to the computer.

There is a lot of confusion regarding USB audio, especially asynchronous/isochronous data transfer, but as far as I understood it asynchronous means the external interface handles the clocking, while isochronous refers to how the data is divided up into chunks while being sent through USB.

Now if the T2 had so much jitter that it couldn't sync up with the PLL in the audio interface glitches such as dropouts would occur.

Wild theory: This only happens on audio interfaces with inputs. Anecdotal evidence has led me to believe the issue doesn't exist on USB DACs which only have audio outs. I have yet to test this on my own, but I plan to shortly.

I think you’re spot on.

 

[Kinnas]

Sorry! Accidentally posted a quote without reply. First time here and using a mobile phone and didn’t find an ”edit message” after posting.

To the point:

I have Discrete 8 as well (using Logic Pro X). Just bought it. Sounds fantastic! But I need a new computer and was considering Mac Mini 2018.

How much memory do you have?

Are you using your Discrete 8 via Thunderbolt or USB?

Have you recorded multitrack sessions at 96 kHz without problems?

I’m seriously considering getting a PC if new Macs can’t record audio properly...

Thanks a lot for your reply!
[doublepost=1550447355][/doublepost]

Hello. I wrote the Reddit thread which AppleInsider eventually picked up on. I'll try explaining what I know so far.

...

2) Personally confirmed the bug on 6 2018 machines so far, not counting the ones friends and colleagues also confirmed, all running 10.14.3, with several different soundcards from different manufacturers (USB2/USB3)

Do you know if using Thunderbolt interface works properly? Is it only USB related problem?
[doublepost=1550448915][/doublepost]Which adapter you use for TB2 -> TB3 connection?

 

[Jorbanead]

Sorry! Accidentally posted a quote without reply. First time here and using a mobile phone and didn’t find an ”edit message” after posting.

To the point:

I have Discrete 8 as well (using Logic Pro X). Just bought it. Sounds fantastic! But I need a new computer and was considering Mac Mini 2018.

How much memory do you have?

Are you using your Discrete 8 via Thunderbolt or USB?

Have you recorded multitrack sessions at 96 kHz without problems?

I’m seriously considering getting a PC if new Macs can’t record audio properly...

Thanks a lot for your reply!
[doublepost=1550447355][/doublepost]


Do you know if using Thunderbolt interface works properly? Is it only USB related problem?
[doublepost=1550448915][/doublepost]Which adapter you use for TB2 -> TB3 connection?

Love my discrete 8 too! I only wish there was a physical button for phantom power but I can live with that.

My i7 Mac mini has 32gb of crucial ram. I originally was connected over USB and got everything to work just fine! After the first day of hiccups described in my original post, I got everything working great and never really seemed to have any issues. I’m currently running over Thunderbolt using a TB3 - TB2 adaptor and the low latency is wonderful!

I’ve run sessions at both 44.1 and 96 kHz and it works great. I’ve done some quick tests at 192 as well and it’s fine. LOVE the 0.7 ms latency when at 192

I should note my friend also got an i7 mini and runs ProTools. I can’t remember what interface he uses but he also doesn’t have any issues. I think it’s easy to feel like there’s a lot of issues on a forum like this because those with issues will be very vocal about it. I know many who use modern Macs for recording audio and don’t have issues.

Long story short: besides my first hour of troubleshooting, I haven’t had issues! Mini works great.

 

[open0]

it is impossible to control HDMI output audio volume

 

[114651728]

Bit the bullet and bought the CalDigit Thunderbolt 3 Mini Dock for my MOTU UltraLite mk4, audio issues seem to be solved.

 

[F-Train]

I'm using two Sound Devices products with the 2018 mini, one USB-A (a USBPre 2 interface) and one USB-C (a MixPre recorder/mixer/interface), and I'm having zero issues with either of them.

Despite the fact that many of the people running YouTube audio channels use Logic, and hence a Mac computer, I have yet to see a single video documenting sound problems. If there's a credible person on YouTube who has produced such a video, I'd like to see it.

The Pro Tools article ballyhooed earlier not only doesn't back up the claims, but states expressly that to date professional reaction to the mini is positive.

If there are problems with RME products in particular, I think that RME owners should be complaining to RME rather than railing about Apple's T2 chip. Maybe start by asking RME why its products have issues, if indeed they do, but Sound Devices's products don't.

 

[Marco Klobas]

I'm using two Sound Devices products with the 2018 mini, one USB-A (a USBPre 2 interface) and one USB-C (a MixPre recorder/mixer/interface), and I'm having zero issues with either of them.

Despite the fact that many of the people running YouTube audio channels use Logic, and hence a Mac computer, I have yet to see a single video documenting sound problems. If there's a credible person on YouTube who has produced such a video, I'd like to see it.

The Pro Tools article ballyhooed earlier not only doesn't back up the claims, but states expressly that to date professional reaction to the mini is positive.

If there are problems with RME products in particular, I think that RME owners should be complaining to RME rather than railing about Apple's T2 chip. Maybe start by asking RME why its products have issues, if indeed they do, but Sound Devices's products don't.

Sound Devices website shows a USB 3 port on USBPre 2. There're no issues with USB 3 connections. Only with USB 2.

I've spotted an Asus eGPU in your signature. You mention a MixPre device with USB C. Is it connected through the eGPU? In this case, again, there're no issues because it's served through Thunderbolt 3 bus.

I'm not doubting that you don't have issues with your Sound Devices. Just trying to figure out if there're the specific conditions that are usually reported to cause the issue.

 

[F-Train]

Sound Devices website shows a USB 3 port on USBPre 2. There're no issues with USB 3 connections. Only with USB 2.

I've spotted an Asus eGPU in your signature. You mention a MixPre device with USB C. Is it connected through the eGPU? In this case, again, there're no issues because it's served through Thunderbolt 3 bus.

I'm not doubting that you don't have issues with your Sound Devices. Just trying to figure out if there're the specific conditions that are usually reported to cause the issue.

The USBPre 2 has a USB 3.0 physical connection but is USB 2.0. See the data rate in the photo; also the User Manual and this Gearslutz discussion: https://www.gearspace.com/board/music-computers/814407-sound-devices-usbpre-2-usb-3-0-a.html

The MixPre is USB-C and I connect it directly to a USB-C port on the mini. I can't think of a reason why I'd want to connect it to an enclosure for a graphics card. Now I'm curious. Can you think of a reason?

If this whole kerfuffle is about USB 2.0, really, it's time for people to move on. If I was having problems with my USBPre 2, it's old enough that maybe I'd take the hint.

As much as I value the facts that the USBPre is built like a tank and its user interface is all hardware, no software (one of the reasons that I chose Sound Devices over RME), I'd tell just about anyone buying today to get a MixPre. One reason is that it has important features that the USBPre 2 lacks. These features require the power that the mini's USB-C ports provide, although there's a kludge that involves running a Y-cable to two USB-A ports.

 

[Marco Klobas]

The USBPre 2 has a USB 3.0 physical connection but is USB 2.0. See the data rate in the photo; also the User Manual and this Gearslutz discussion: https://www.gearspace.com/board/music-computers/814407-sound-devices-usbpre-2-usb-3-0-a.html

The MixPre is USB-C and I connect it directly to a USB-C port on the mini. I can't think of a reason why I'd want to connect it to an enclosure for a graphics card. Now I'm curious. Can you think of a reason?

If this whole kerfuffle is about USB 2.0, really, it's time for people to move on. If I was having problems with my USBPre 2, it's old enough that maybe I'd take the hint. As much as I value the fact that it's built like a tank and its interface is hardware only (one of the reasons that I chose Sound Devices over RME), I'd tell just about anyone buying today to get a MixPre.

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Thanks F-Train for the clarification.

OK, you're using USB 2 and USB C audio devices connected directly to your Mac mini 2018 without issues. Good for you.

Speaking of USB devices passing through a eGPU: the only reason would be because of missing free ports on the Mac. Otherwise, of course, it wouldn't make sense. That's the reason I asked.

I don't know who/what is to blame for these dropouts. I only know that the same devices with the same OS were running fine with my Mac mini 2014 and started to experience dropouts with the 2018 model. It's quite logical, from my point of view, to suspect firstly about Apple rather than RME.

I chose RME because I read positive feedbacks, especially regarding the stability of their drivers. It's my first RME device. Time will tell if it was a good choice or not.

 

[F-Train]

Thanks F-Train for the clarification.

OK, you're using USB 2 and USB C audio devices connected directly to your Mac mini 2018 without issues. Good for you.

Speaking of USB devices passing through a eGPU: the only reason would be because of missing free ports on the Mac. Otherwise, of course, it wouldn't make sense. That's the reason I asked.

I don't know who/what is to blame for these dropouts. I only know that the same devices with the same OS were running fine with my Mac mini 2014 and started to experience dropouts with the 2018 model. It's quite logical, from my point of view, to suspect firstly about Apple rather than RME.

I chose RME because I read positive feedbacks, especially regarding the stability of their drivers. It's my first RME device. Time will tell if it was a good choice or not.

I'm going to be frank about RME and the BabyFace Pro that you have purchased.

I don't understand how RME gets away with selling this product in 2018/19. It's an old design that is well past its due date. USB 2.0? Seriously?

Take a hard look at Sound Devices's MixPre-3. It's USB-C, offers three rather than two XLR mike inputs, is significantly more versatile, and in the U.S., at least, is $100 cheaper ($200 cheaper for the musician-specific 3M version). Check out the MixPre-6 while you're at it ($150 more than the BabyFace, $50 more for the 6M).

If I had recently purchased a BabyFace, I'd return it if I could, and seriously consider selling it if I couldn't, with the intention of replacing it with a MixPre. Getting rid of TotalMix FX, which in my view is overkill for the BabyFace to the point of being a nuisance, would be reason enough.

Haven't heard of Sound Devices? Their recorders and mixers, which are of very high quality with prices to match, are used on a high percentage of documentary and feature films. With the MixPre, Sound Devices has decided to go after a broader market.

As a long-time owner of a Sound Devices field recorder and a USBPre 2, and as a recent owner of a MixPre-3, I am confident in saying that MixPre quality is excellent. As for service, Sound Devices earned its rather demanding clientele in part by answering the phone promptly, and not by somebody in some call centre either.

 

[Marco Klobas]

I'm going to be frank about RME and the BabyFace Pro that you have purchased.

I don't understand how RME gets away with selling this product in 2018/19. It's an old design that is well past its due date. USB 2.0? Seriously?

Take a hard look at Sound Devices's MixPre-3. It's USB-C, offers three rather than two mike inputs, is significantly more versatile, and in the U.S., at least, is $100 cheaper ($200 cheaper for the musician-specific 3M version, although I'd spring for the standard version). Check out the MixPre-6 ($50 more than the BabyFace) while you're at it.

If I had recently purchased a BabyFace, I'd return it if I could, and seriously consider selling it if I couldn't, with the intention of replacing it with a MixPre.

Haven't heard of Sound Devices? Their recorders and mixers, which are of very high quality with prices to match, are used on a high percentage of documentary and feature films. With the MixPre, Sound Devices has decided to go after a broader market. The quality and service are excellent.

Thanks for your suggestions.

I’ll take a look at Sound Devices’s solutions. They seem indeed interesting. The on-the-go/portability and recording features are surely a plus, making them more versatile compared to the Babyface Pro.

I have to say that until this whole USB 2 issue arose I was quite happy with the purchase.

 

[F-Train]

Thanks for your suggestions.

I’ll take a look at Sound Devices’s solutions. They seem indeed interesting. The on-the-go/portability and recording features are surely a plus, making them more versatile compared to the Babyface Pro.

I have to say that until this whole USB 2 issue arose I was quite happy with the purchase.

Hi,

I've owned a BabyFace. The MixPre is in a completely different league.

I will say that while the MixPre-3 is less expensive, the price difference will be eaten up if you want to use it for extended periods with batteries. The MixPre comes with a 4 AA sled, but for extended recording you need either an 8 AA or Sony L-Mount sled, which are sold separately. If you go the AA route, it is essential to use NiMH (not alkaline) batteries, preferably rechargeable (e.g. Panasonic Eneloop). There is accurate battery life info on the Sound Devices web site.

By the way, see those posts on the extreme left and right in the photo? Those are for a carry strap for over the shoulder mobile recording. I don't know whether Sound Devices invented this idea, but it is a feature of all of their high-end field recorders and very useful.

 

[Marco Klobas]

Hi,

I've owned a BabyFace. The MixPre is in a completely different league.

I will say that while the MixPre-3 is less expensive, the price difference will be eaten up if you want to use it for extended periods with batteries. The MIxPre comes with a 4 AA sled, but for extended recording you need either an 8 AA or Sony L-Mount sled, which are sold separately. If you go the AA route, it is essential to use NiMH (not alkaline) batteries, preferably rechargeable (e.g. Panasonic Eneloop). There is accurate battery life info on the Sound Devices web site.

Got it. I've already read something about batteries. Thanks.

By the way, see those posts on the extreme left and right in the photo? Those are for a carry strap for over the shoulder mobile recording. I don't know whether Sound Devices invented this idea, but it is a feature of all of their high end field recorders and very useful.

I see the advantage of those "hooks". Little bit OT: I used to carry a portable mixer (Shure) strapped on my neck with a PortaBrace case back in time when I worked for TV productions. Analogue stuff, only mixer. Today you get mixer, converter and recorder, all in one device which is even slightly smaller.

 

[F-Train]

Got it. I've already read something about batteries. Thanks.



I see the advantage of those "hooks". Little bit OT: I used to carry a portable mixer (Shure) strapped on my neck with a PortaBrace case back in time when I worked for TV productions. Analogue stuff, only mixer. Today you get mixer, converter and recorder, all in one device which is even slightly smaller.

Shure? See the third sentence of this Wikipedia article on Sound Devices: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Devices

In October, I was at the Audio Engineering Society show here in New York and dropped by the Sound Devices booth. I had a great chat with the sole person there, who had no name card on his chest and who offered his first name, but not his last or his role in the company.

I knew who I was speaking to, and after a couple of minutes introduced the friend that I was with to this stranger.

I respect the fact that Jon Tatooles was not only manning a trade show booth, but said nothing about who he is in the company.

 

[Marco Klobas]

Shure? See the second sentence of this Wikipedia article on Sound Devices: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Devices

The world is small...

In October, I was at the Audio Engineering Society show here in New York and dropped by the Sound Devices booth. I had a great chat with the sole person there, who had no name card on his chest and who offered his first name, but not his last or his role in the company. I respect the fact that John Tatooles was not only manning a trade show booth, but said nothing about who he is

It's always nice to know there're guys running a business in a committed and humble way.

 

[dspdoc]

http://cdm.link/2019/02/apple-2018-glitch/

I am not sure how this is just now becoming news seeing that it has been an issue since the 2017 iMac Pro. It may have been flying under the radar due to the seemingly low amount of pro audio users on newer machines. Most pro audio people will keep a Mac until it dies and never upgrade their OS. This issue is not relegated just to USB either. It does affect Thunderbolt devices as well. The T2 chip is a major problem that I do not believe can be fixed with software. The chip is a “watchdog” and it freaks out causing kernel panics and drops in samples far too easily. Apple has really screwed up these new machines with this chip. What a nightmare!

 

[Ploki]

http://cdm.link/2019/02/apple-2018-glitch/

I am not sure how this is just now becoming news seeing that it has been an issue since the 2017 iMac Pro. It may have been flying under the radar due to the seemingly low amount of pro audio users on newer machines. Most pro audio people will keep a Mac until it dies and never upgrade their OS. This issue is not relegated just to USB either. It does affect Thunderbolt devices as well. The T2 chip is a major problem that I do not believe can be fixed with software. The chip is a “watchdog” and it freaks out causing kernel panics and drops in samples far too easily. Apple has really screwed up these new machines with this chip. What a nightmare!

on the flip side, if it turns out to be a hardware issue you'll get a new machine when it's refreshed for free!

this article is for usb2.0 only tho...

 

[dspdoc]

on the flip side, if it turns out to be a hardware issue you'll get a new machine when it's refreshed for free!

this article is for usb2.0 only tho...

That’s wishful thinking. I can’t see Apple ever in a million years sending out all new machines to people with T2 chips from 2017 onwards. I’ve been a Mac person for over 20 years and Apple doesn’t operate that way. They are experts at plausible deniability and deflecting. Only when their feet are held to the fire with a serious class action lawsuit do they seem to do what’s right by their customers. They’ve become totally disconnected with anything resembling human behavior. They’ve perfected the art of the loophole.

 

[Duncan68]

on the flip side, if it turns out to be a hardware issue you'll get a new machine when it's refreshed for free!

this article is for usb2.0 only tho...

You really should've used a sarcasm tag.

 

[F-Train]

The chip is a “watchdog” and it freaks out causing kernel panics and drops in samples far too easily. Apple has really screwed up these new machines with this chip. What a nightmare!

Tell me about it. Just last night, I awoke from a sound sleep, sat bolt upright in a cold sweat, and yelled to the world "T2, the giant police dog, is coming to get me!"