Doesn't a fully electric car end up costing you more?

[Rodimus Prime]

What I don't understand is why they don't develop something akin to what Cat is doing right now. Diesel electric hybrid, but instead of batteries they use the diesel engine to power a generator which directly powers the drive train. No batteries, less moving parts, better gas mileage, smaller & more efficient engine while still giving you more torque.

linky --> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/24/automobiles/autoreviews/24DOZER.html

problem with that is that really only works well if you are not expecting to have ever changing power demands. In a car you are always picking up speed adjusting speed and have a very constated changing power demand curve (big time in city driving)
The stuff Cat makes you can expect when it is running to keep a pretty constance power demand. It will either be high demand or low idle demand.

 

[Apple OC]

there is one reason electric cars have not taken off ... If everyone went to electric cars right now ... the power grids could not sustain the needed electricity. We would have to replace the whole power grid system first.

That is the reason they are already telling people to cut back on using Air Conditioning in their homes.

The power grids could not handle the increased usage.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

The large-displacement V8 gasoline engine is God with many die-hard truck and muscle car enthusiasts. While I can understand the argument for wanting to keep such an engine in cars like the Mustang for performance and asthetic reasons, I see no such excuse for trucks and SUVs. If you want big torque, get a diesel. Your local redneck with his Dodge Ram 3500 Cummins Turbodiesel duelly-crewcab monstrosity already understands this.

I might add that, for many buyers, a third bottleneck will be range. Even if you could stop and recharge every 50 miles or so, not too many people are going to be happy with that, even if recharge times could be brought down to the same as fill up times.

I already have to buy gas about every four days (about every 430 miles), I can't imagine having to stop eight or nine times () in the same amount of time to plug in.

I agree. And battery efficiency is the key. the more efficient a battery is, the smaller and lighter it is. And that means more range. Of course, charging time is also a major issue. Engineers worldwide are pulling their hair out trying to build an affordable, compact, lightweight battery that is environmentally friendly, charges fast, and contains a huge amount of electricity.

EDIT: Speaking as a person who has lived in places with harsh winters, it's also worth pointing out that electric vehicles suffer from heavily reduced range when the batteries get very cold. This could be mitigated somewhat with a plugin electric battery warmer, but nevertheless electrics will lose a lot of range in the winter.

 

[fivepoint]

The large-displacement V8 gasoline engine is God with many die-hard truck and muscle car enthusiasts. While I can understand the argument for wanting to keep such an engine in cars like the Mustang for performance and asthetic reasons, I see no such excuse for trucks and SUVs. If you want big torque, get a diesel. Your local redneck with his Dodge Ram 3500 Cummins Turbodiesel duelly-crewcab monstrosity already understands this.

Well, let's not act like diesels have no problems either. In the cold of a midwestern summer diesels can be very hard to start and warm up. Diesel fuel is much harder to find when traveling, and most importantly... Diesel trucks come at about a $10,000 price increase over similar gas models. Yes, part of this has to do with the upgraded transmissions necessary to handle the torque, but the cost difference obviously exists. I love diesels, but clearly there are reasons why those 'die-hard truck enthusiasts' still want their gas engines sometimes.

 

[steviem]

Those cold weather problems are mostly fallacies.

Germany and Scandinavian countries have bitter winters, my mum's friend from Norway has a Diesel 4x4 and she sent my mum a photo of the temperature during their winter, it was something stupid like -30 centigrade (-20 Fahrenheit) and they have no issues with their Diesel starting up. That is because for winter, they get additives from the oil companies added directly into the mix at the pump.

However, my time in NY, NJ and VT did show me that Diesel pumps are few and far between. The problem with diesel is that petrol is so readily available and so cheap in the states, why would somebody want to buy a diesel car? In the UK and Europe, the cost of a Diesel car, the near parity in cost per litre of fuel and the leaps and bounds Diesel cars have made since the 80s (Diesels successful in Motorsports such as Le Mans and WTCC) means that there's a lot more demand.

 

[fivepoint]

Those cold weather problems are mostly fallacies.

Germany and Scandinavian countries have bitter winters, my mum's friend from Norway has a Diesel 4x4 and she sent my mum a photo of the temperature during their winter, it was something stupid like -30 centigrade (-20 Fahrenheit) and they have no issues with their Diesel starting up. That is because for winter, they get additives from the oil companies added directly into the mix at the pump.

However, my time in NY, NJ and VT did show me that Diesel pumps are few and far between. The problem with diesel is that petrol is so readily available and so cheap in the states, why would somebody want to buy a diesel car? In the UK and Europe, the cost of a Diesel car, the near parity in cost per litre of fuel and the leaps and bounds Diesel cars have made since the 80s (Diesels successful in Motorsports such as Le Mans and WTCC) means that there's a lot more demand.

No it's not a fallacy. Believe me, I grew up on a farm with many diesel tractors, several diesel trucks, and many gas vehicles as well. Many farmers will build heated sheds for precisely this reason. It's not an issue if you leave them plugged in at night, but 'gelling' both in ag vehicles and trucks, etc. is certainly not a fallacy. It takes extra work to keep them running properly in the middle of the winter.

 

[SkyBell]

I don't understand this thing about diesel being hard to find- I've been to a lot of places in the US, and I'd say at least 90% of all gas stations I've seen carry diesel. And at least 5% of that 10 are old, out of date, run down places you wouldn't want to stop at anyway. Someone care to explain?

 

[fivepoint]

I don't understand this thing about diesel being hard to find- I've been to a lot of places in the US, and I'd say at least 90% of all gas stations I've seen carry diesel. And at least 5% of that 10 are old, out of date, run down places you wouldn't want to stop at anyway. Someone care to explain?

It probably has a lot to do with your area of the country. Access to Diesel will probably be different (as a percentage of gas stations) in Texas vs. Connecticut. Or even within your state there's probably considerable variability. The point is, you can't always count on it when traveling.

 

[SkyBell]

It probably has a lot to do with your area of the country. Access to Diesel will probably be different (as a percentage of gas stations) in Texas vs. Connecticut. Or even within your state there's probably considerable variability. The point is, you can't always count on it when traveling.

Hrm, I see what you're saying. I've just never really had a problem finding gas stations that offer diesel, even in the northeast. (Not that I've really been looking that hard, but whenever I have I've seen it.) I suppose there are some places that way though.

 

[snberk103]

Those cold weather problems are mostly fallacies.

Germany and Scandinavian countries have bitter winters ... they get additives from the oil companies added directly into the mix at the pump.

...

No it's not a fallacy. Believe me, I grew up on a farm with many diesel tractors, several diesel trucks, and many gas vehicles as well. Many farmers will build heated sheds for precisely this reason. It's not an issue if you leave them plugged in at night, but 'gelling' both in ag vehicles and trucks, etc. is certainly not a fallacy. It takes extra work to keep them running properly in the middle of the winter.

Fallacy or not, cold weather countries use diesel simply by addressing the issues. Additives and plug in engine/fuel heaters. On the Canadian prairies you plug in your car at night in the winter - gas or diesel. The only difference is how the car is wired. Lots of diesel vehicles in use in Canadian cities, right through the winter. Right up to the arctic circle and beyond.

 

[Tomorrow]

there is one reason electric cars have not taken off ... If everyone went to electric cars right now ... the power grids could not sustain the needed electricity. We would have to replace the whole power grid system first.

That's just one of many reasons - but the grids could handle it much better than many people think.

The majority of people would plug in their cars at night, when the grids are running at a relative trickle - consider all the office space whose lights are off, air conditioning is off, etc. That's a HUGE surplus of capacity.

Unfortunately, most charging in the daytime would be of the "quick" variety, with a higher power draw - but still, charging batteries isn't particularly high-amp usage.

I don't understand this thing about diesel being hard to find- I've been to a lot of places in the US, and I'd say at least 90% of all gas stations I've seen carry diesel. And at least 5% of that 10 are old, out of date, run down places you wouldn't want to stop at anyway. Someone care to explain?

Here in Texas that's been my observation as well - but just about anything petroleum-based is widely available in Texas.

Since virtually all of the on-the-road demand for diesel in the U.S. is in pickup trucks and heavy-duty trucks, it makes sense that diesel would be more readily available in Texas than in some place where pickups aren't as popular.

 

[bobr1952]

BUT...that electricity 95% of the time is created by burning fossil fuels.

I think in some countries, electric cars make sense but not in the US--not until we use electricity generating methods that are not fossil fuel based. I really believe that in the US, the most environmentally friendly car is the hybrid--something like the Prius which has a very efficient and clean engine and uses that as well as kinetic energy to generate its own electricity--it becomes a very efficient and clean power plant of its own. Some day (hopefully) we will get our act together and use more alternate forms of energy to produce electricity but until then, we are just fossil fuel based energy production from the car to the power plant.

 

[iJohnHenry]

+1 For sure! Even with the poorer fuel economy, keeping your old car takes a lot less resources than having a new one built.

Exactly, Reduce, Reuse, Recycle, in that order.

And what of the carbon footprint of creating such a vehicle?

How does this compare to a smaller internal-combustion car??

 

[millertime021]

I don't understand this thing about diesel being hard to find- I've been to a lot of places in the US, and I'd say at least 90% of all gas stations I've seen carry diesel. And at least 5% of that 10 are old, out of date, run down places you wouldn't want to stop at anyway. Someone care to explain?

It probably has a lot to do with your area of the country. Access to Diesel will probably be different (as a percentage of gas stations) in Texas vs. Connecticut. Or even within your state there's probably considerable variability. The point is, you can't always count on it when traveling.

In AZ, I have yet to see a gas station without diesel.

Well thank God for that! Show me the way to my prius and my obama sticker.

You do that. I'll stick with my Jeep and my "1/20/13 Change we can believe in" bumper sticker.

Oh and I get anywhere from 9-12 MPG and my current carbon monoxide output is 183. The legal limit is 25. So I think I even you out a bit.

Enjoy your Prius. I'll be having fun romping in my Jeep and driving with no top or doors, enjoying life.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I think the cold weather and fuel availability problems are much lower than some think.

First off, I live in Alaska. Repeat. Alaska. It's cold. Every house, every apartment complex has outlets and cords for engine block heaters. Pretty much everyone uses them, regardless what kind of car you drive. Lots of people up here drive diesel trucks, VW/Mercedes/BMW diesels. Subarus are highly popular here and I'm sure once the Subie diesel is available people will buy them in droves. The cold weather absolutely does not stop people from using diesels up here, and it's as cold in this state as just about anywhere people regularly drive.

When I lived near Lake Superior, the winters got cold enough to freeze gasoline engines too. Anyway, modern pasenger car and small truck diesels are much more tolerant of cold than farm tractors.

As for availability, I've driven the "loneliest road in America" in Nevada and the long trip up to Alaska. I've been in pretty remote places, and I've never been in a situation where I risked running out of diesel for lack of fuel stations. It's just about everywhere now. Yes, it's not available at every station - but if you drive a diesel you'll always be able to find fuel. The proliferation of in-car GPS units and smart phones makes it even easier to find.

 

[optophobia]

In AZ, I have yet to see a gas station without diesel.

You do that. I'll stick with my Jeep and my "1/20/13 Change we can believe in" bumper sticker.

Oh and I get anywhere from 9-12 MPG and my current carbon monoxide output is 183. The legal limit is 25. So I think I even you out a bit.

Enjoy your Prius. I'll be having fun romping in my Jeep and driving with no top or doors, enjoying life.

Kids. The future. Gotta love'm huh ?
So with a nickname "millertime021", let me guess you drink quality microbrews right ?

 

[snberk103]

...
Oh and I get anywhere from 9-12 MPG and my current carbon monoxide output is 183. The legal limit is 25. So I think I even you out a bit.

Enjoy your Prius. I'll be having fun romping in my Jeep and driving with no top or doors, enjoying life.

Ah... but will your children/nieces/nephews be able to enjoy life as much as you have?

 

[iJohnHenry]

So with a nickname "millertime021", let me guess you drink quality microbrews right ?

Not necessarily. It's a common expression for Happy Hour.

Ah... but will your children/nieces/nephews be able to enjoy life as much as you have?

So, we had challenges growing up.

Would you deny future generations the same privilege??

 

[millertime021]

Kids. The future. Gotta love'm huh ?
So with a nickname "millertime021", let me guess you drink quality microbrews right ?

Actually I don't drink. Shocker I know.

The name is kinda a joke from a while back now.

Ah... but will your children/nieces/nephews be able to enjoy life as much as you have?

Most likely. There are enough green people as is. I recycle and do my part that way, but I'll never drive a hybrid.

Also, last I checked, this generation is a lot cleaner than the 60s, 70s, etc. So I'm pretty sure we will all be fine.

Plus global warming is a total joke.

 

[snberk103]

...
Most likely. There are enough green people as is. ...

Also, last I checked, this generation is a lot cleaner than the 60s, 70s, etc. So I'm pretty sure we will all be fine.

Plus global warming is a total joke.

I'm guessing that you're going to hear from a few people now ....

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I wouldn't have expected an Arizonan to notice.

 

[quagmire]

This is why I like the Volt. For me, I only drive 16 miles a day at most. I would be well within the Volt's 25-50 mile electric only range. And then I can charge it at night at off peak hours( and with the magic of Onstar's new app I can plug it in after I park the car, but have it start charging at a designated time). I believe electricity for me is pretty cheap so charging it won't be a big issue. When I drive to the airport once every 2 months which is 70 miles away, the gas engine will start up and provide more juice to keep me going. Now I just need to raise $41,000 or start entering sweepstakes that are giving away Volt's.

Electric cars will cost you more because it the battery tech is still new. Over time the cost will go down, making overall cost of ownership to go down as well.

 

[Statik]

problem with that is that really only works well if you are not expecting to have ever changing power demands. In a car you are always picking up speed adjusting speed and have a very constated changing power demand curve (big time in city driving)
The stuff Cat makes you can expect when it is running to keep a pretty constance power demand. It will either be high demand or low idle demand.

No different then a blender at home going faster or slower even though you still have the same voltage coming in. As long as you have a constant electrical input from the generator/engine combo then it can maximize efficiency and shouldn't need to have a battery acting as a middle man.

Most likely. There are enough green people as is. I recycle and do my part that way, but I'll never drive a hybrid.

Never say never. We will all be driving hybrids at some point. The question is when, not if.

Plus global warming is a total joke.

Yes. Just like evolution.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Electric cars will cost you more because it the battery tech is still new. Over time the cost will go down, making overall cost of ownership to go down as well.

I think that the market for electric cars is growing slowly, but battery technology breakthroughs (if they are possible) will change the market noticeably.

 

[steve2112]

I think that the market for electric cars is growing slowly, but battery technology breakthroughs (if they are possible) will change the market noticeably.

There won't be any major battery breakthroughs any time soon because the big oil companies keep squashing them. Darn, I've said too much. Where did I put my tinfoil hat?