Doesn't a fully electric car end up costing you more?

[dukebound85]

.

Plus global warming is a total joke.

Global warming a joke? Really now?

I don't understand this thing about diesel being hard to find- I've been to a lot of places in the US, and I'd say at least 90% of all gas stations I've seen carry diesel. And at least 5% of that 10 are old, out of date, run down places you wouldn't want to stop at anyway. Someone care to explain?

I know out west, diesel is everywhere. What I found shocking in the NE was that there were
1) No truck stops anywhere like there is in the midwest and westward
2) Hardly any station carried diesel

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I know out west, diesel is everywhere. What I found shocking in the NE was that there were
1) No truck stops anywhere like there is in the midwest and westward
2) Hardly any station carried diesel

My experiences in upstate New York were that diesel was less commonly carried than in the midwest, but it was still not diffcult to find a gas station that carried it. It seemed a little less common in Mass and CT.

It's going to take time for people and infrastructure to adapt, but I think diesel will become increasingly popular as a cheaper, simpler alternative to hybrids and electrics in the the shorter term. The economics favor it.

Plus, serial hybrids with small diesels are "the future" - not gasoline hybrids.

 

[fivepoint]

As for availability, I've driven the "loneliest road in America" in Nevada and the long trip up to Alaska. I've been in pretty remote places, and I've never been in a situation where I risked running out of diesel for lack of fuel stations. It's just about everywhere now. Yes, it's not available at every station - but if you drive a diesel you'll always be able to find fuel. The proliferation of in-car GPS units and smart phones makes it even easier to find.

Besides... by now, I'm sure "there's an app for that."

 

[millertime021]

Global warming a joke? Really now?

Global warming, wait for it, global warming is... Brace yourself now.... A joke.

Never say never. We will all be driving hybrids at some point. The question is when, not if.



Yes. Just like evolution.

I'll have my Jeep and my 68 Fastback Mustang. So maybe all NEW cars will be hybrids. But not every car.

And hey. I can dig evolution. I did spend over a week and a half in the Galapagos Islands.

 

[dukebound85]

Global warming, wait for it, global warming is... Brace yourself now.... A joke.

And source?

For starters and a very brieft summary of the matter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ucrx6q4mb8&feature=related

 

[Sydde]

The home charging dock is another $2k.

Well my goodness, what ever would you need that for?

 

[snberk103]

Global warming, wait for it, global warming is... Brace yourself now.... A joke.

There's not much doubt anymore that the climate is changing as the globe warms up... nor that human activities have contributed to the change. The only thing open to debate now is how much humans have added to the warming cycle - practically nothing, some of it, most of it, all of it. While there are some scientists who still say otherwise, many are on the payroll of companies who don't want more laws curtailing their activities. Or they're scientists who are preaching outside of the their area of knowledge. Yes, there is always the possibility that the 1% of non-paid-for climatologists who say that nothing is happening are right.... but I like to go with the odds.

I'll have my Jeep and my 68 Fastback Mustang. So maybe all NEW cars will be hybrids. But not every car.
...

'68 Mustang - nice car. Don't sell it... it will only get more valuable. When gas powered cars finally go the way of the dodo bird, it will be a huge collector's item. Of course, I laugh at you every time I pass you filling it up at the gas station.

We've got a Smart Car. It goes like stink, (it does corners better than your Mustang - but of course it will never ever do the straight lines as fast. Good thing we live in rural community with lots of winding roads, eh?!).... and of course it goes on and on and on, on a litre of gas (Canadian here). Last year we drove from our island to Vancouver Island to the Olympic Peninsula (ok, the ferries did a lot travelling on the first day).... down the Washington and half-way down the Oregon coasts - cut back across the Cascades and up the east side and back over the pass to Anacortes and then back to Vancouver Island - 8 days of driving and beach walking for $60 US. And the Smart Car needs the good stuff... basically we pull into a gas station and pick the most expensive blend. It will be even better when gas taxes go up.... and they will.... trust me.

 

[SkyBell]

Global warming a joke? Really now?



I know out west, diesel is everywhere. What I found shocking in the NE was that there were
1) No truck stops anywhere like there is in the midwest and westward
2) Hardly any station carried diesel

Hmm, I never noticed a lack of diesel when I was up in MD, VA, NY - that area. But I suppose in the upper northeast diesel isn't very popular.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

I might add that, for many buyers, a third bottleneck will be range. Even if you could stop and recharge every 50 miles or so, not too many people are going to be happy with that, even if recharge times could be brought down to the same as fill up times.

I already have to buy gas about every four days (about every 430 miles), I can't imagine having to stop eight or nine times eek in the same amount of time to plug in.

.

Yes it would be a problem on long trips but lets assume you are just using the eletric car to drive too and from work and a little around town. Then it would not be a real issue since every night you would be plugging it in to charge.
As long as you have 2 cars it is not going to be a big issue and by 2 cars I mean at least 2 cars in the family. One of them being a gas power car.

For married people that is not going to be a huge issue because most married couples I know have 1 of their cars that is a "family" car in the terms it is the one that is taken when ever they go somewhere as a family. Often times it is the nicer of the cars.

 

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

Let's look at recharging, since that's the electricity you're paying for.

At 120V/12A, a full recharge takes 20 hours - there are some losses associated with this, typically on the order of 5-10%, but I won't count them here. The total power here is 1,440 W, over 20 hours that's 28.8 kWh.

At $0.10 per kWh (a completely reasonable value for most of the U.S.), that costs $2.88, or roughly the cost of about 1.2 gallons of gas in my part of the country.

Let's compare this to actual usage - the Nissan Leaf Wikipedia page says a full charge will get you 70 miles at "highway" speeds (actually 55 mph) with the A/C going (real world conditions). To do that on 1.2 gallons of gasoline in just about any car would be an impressive feat.

So, if you're in the market for a very small car that doesn't go very fast or very far, and you don't plan on keeping it long enough to replace the batteries ($18,000?!?), then yes, your per-mile cost for energy is less than that of a gasoline-driven car.

You also have to be realistic about how much stop and go city driving you do. A large number of cars are actually getting 10-20 MPG, not 20-40 MPG, because they are being driven in heavy city traffic most of the time. People need to be realistic-- how often do you fill up now? I have measured my consumption carefully, and, for both vehicles, most of the driving is city driving, and, both vehicles get about half their highway MPG in the city. The only gasoline-only non-hybrid cars that do really well at stop and go driving are also very small cars that don't go very fast. There is no question that electric vehicles are a big win in city driving. It also is to be hoped that the cost of the batteries will continue to drop, but for now, there may be tax incentives to help with some of the initial cost. And, I expect that most new electric vehicles will be sold to two-vehicle families initially, where one of the vehicles can be dedicated to city driving.

 

[Liquorpuki]

Example Nissan Leaf uses 3300 watts an hour and within 20 hours is fully charged which will let the car run 160 kilometers.

So if you do the math isn't that ridiculously expensive as the average cost per 1000 watts an hur is 0.10.

Unless your running your house from solar power or wind power it seems this car would cost more money over 10 years then would a Honda Civic, or Honda Fit.

You're confusing the battery and the charger. The charger is 3300 watts. The battery's energy storage capacity is 24 KWH. When it's full, it can make the Leaf go 160 km, or 100 miles.

So divide the battery's energy by the number of miles it can power the car and you get 0.24 KWH / mile. Multiply it by your utility's electric rate (10 cents per KWH) to get the cost per mile (2.4 cents / mile) and then compare it to the cost per mile of your gas vehicle.

EV's also have a setting on the transmission that uses the change in momentum to recharge the battery whenever you brake. Personally I think it's annoying because it jolts you forward but it's free energy.

In the future, smartgrid technology is supposed to implement variable time-of-use rates. So electric rates will go down at night, which is when most people will be charging their EV's anyway, making it cheaper.

 

[iJohnHenry]

'68 Mustang - nice car. Don't sell it... it will only get more valuable. When gas powered cars finally go the way of the dodo bird, it will be a huge collector's item. Of course, I laugh at you every time I pass you filling it up at the gas station.

They will be in short supply by then.

He'd have to have an in-ground tank at home, and get it delivered, like heating oil.

 

[Tomorrow]

Yes it would be a problem on long trips but lets assume you are just using the eletric car to drive too and from work and a little around town.

My commute to work, one-way, is 40 miles. I also drive to jobsites, clients' offices, etc. A hundred miles in a day is far from rare for me, and there isn't an electric car I'm aware of that can do that on a charge.

Keep in mind that I live in Texas, where air conditioning is a given for about 10 months or so out of the year, and that right now, electric cars are tiny.

You also have to be realistic about how much stop and go city driving you do. A large number of cars are actually getting 10-20 MPG, not 20-40 MPG, because they are being driven in heavy city traffic most of the time.

I qualified that in my post.

And, I expect that most new electric vehicles will be sold to two-vehicle families initially, where one of the vehicles can be dedicated to city driving.

I can just imagine: "Honey, it's my turn to take the real car this week." "No way, I had to drive that electric POS for two weeks straight, it's your turn to take it!"

 

[Lord Blackadder]

My commute to work, one-way, is 40 miles. I also drive to jobsites, clients' offices, etc. A hundred miles in a day is far from rare for me, and there isn't an electric car I'm aware of that can do that on a charge.

The Tesla Roadster can do 100 miles on a charge actually, but apart from being extremely expensive, it's basically a Lotus Elise and that means no storage and few creature comforts.

You don't want to be operating at the limit of your range every time you commute either - you want some wiggle room in case the weather is cold (reducing battery life) or you make a store run or some such.

 

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

My commute to work, one-way, is 40 miles. I also drive to jobsites, clients' offices, etc. A hundred miles in a day is far from rare for me, and there isn't an electric car I'm aware of that can do that on a charge.

I can just imagine: "Honey, it's my turn to take the real car this week." "No way, I had to drive that electric POS for two weeks straight, it's your turn to take it!"

Hey, take it easy. Electrics are not for everybody today. My commute is 5 miles of city driving each way. Lots of other short trips also, of < 10 mi. So, I'm a good candidate, and, you are not.

But, electrics might be for more people than you think. Gas in my area was near $5/gallon 3 years ago at the peak. I expect to see $10/gallon within the lifetime of my next car.

 

[dukebound85]

Yes it would be a problem on long trips but lets assume you are just using the eletric car to drive too and from work and a little around town. Then it would not be a real issue since every night you would be plugging it in to charge.
As long as you have 2 cars it is not going to be a big issue and by 2 cars I mean at least 2 cars in the family. One of them being a gas power car.

For married people that is not going to be a huge issue because most married couples I know have 1 of their cars that is a "family" car in the terms it is the one that is taken when ever they go somewhere as a family. Often times it is the nicer of the cars.

Peachtree City Georgia has used electric transportation in the forms of golf carts and this was back when I lived there in the mid-90s

Very cool and so many families used a golfcart to go to the grocery store and what not

http://www.electric-cars-are-for-girls.com/golf-carts.html

Once again, it was reaaly really cool and youd would see so many modded golf carts too lol

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Hey, take it easy. Electrics are not for everybody today. My commute is 5 miles of city driving each way. Lots of other short trips also, of < 10 mi. So, I'm a good candidate, and, you are not.

Ever considered cycling to work? It would probably take you 20 minutes or less under favorable conditions. Or perhaps a moped/scooter, they get triple-digit gas mileage. My current commute is about 1.3 miles and I walk to work. Despite being a self-described car enthusiast, I've never been happier and, frankly, healthier. I made some sacrifices to locate close to work but it was absolutely worth it.

I used to commute about 70-80 miles (total) a few years ago, and while I enjoy driving I don't miss it or the fuel costs. I think more people need to look at locating closer to work, using public transportation or walking/cycling. You have to make some sacrifices but it saves money, can be healthier and is of course greener. I'm never going to get rid of my cars, mind you, but I think avoiding a long commute has many benefits.

 

[Tomorrow]

Hey, take it easy. Electrics are not for everybody today. My commute is 5 miles of city driving each way. Lots of other short trips also, of < 10 mi. So, I'm a good candidate, and, you are not.

But, electrics might be for more people than you think. Gas in my area was near $5/gallon 3 years ago at the peak. I expect to see $10/gallon within the lifetime of my next car.

Your argument seems to be based on the notion that the cost of fuel is the only consideration when choosing a vehicle - is it?

My current commute is about 1.3 miles and I walk to work.

In Alaska?!?

 

[Lord Blackadder]

In Alaska?!?

Nothing a good pair of boots, a hat, gloves and a parka can't handle.

 

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

Ever considered cycling to work? It would probably take you 20 minutes or less under favorable conditions.

I formerly did. I don't any more, because it has become too dangerous. I hope to again, if something would ever cause motorists around here to take safety seriously.

 

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

Your argument seems to be based on the notion that the cost of fuel is the only consideration when choosing a vehicle - is it?

I favor ethical reasons, but, many people consider only financial reasons.

My point about costs apparently was not conveyed very clearly. I was attempting to point out that people often or usually overlook their actual fuel consumption in their actual driving, and instead, like to imagine that they are getting 38 highway MPG or whatever, when actually driving in their usual stop and go commute.

They also like to imagine that gas is going to stay at whatever price it was when they were a teenager or whatever, forgetting that they were paying $5/gallon or whatever 3 years ago, and, will pay that again "soon", and, more.

Bottom line: people are usually paying a lot more per year for their commute than they like to think, and, are going to pay more than they like to think about now in the future, so, they tend to use the wrong yardstick when looking at transportation alternatives, like electric cars and other things ...

 

[Statik]

Global warming, wait for it, global warming is... Brace yourself now.... A joke.

I'll have my Jeep and my 68 Fastback Mustang. So maybe all NEW cars will be hybrids. But not every car.

And hey. I can dig evolution. I did spend over a week and a half in the Galapagos Islands.

Just logical that if you think global warming is a "joke" you'd probably be in the same camp that thought evolution is a "joke" as well. Really, hard to imagine finding somebody believing in one and not the other.

I'm sure you'll want to replace the Jeep eventually. You have a point with your '68. It will never be a hybrid but then again you aren't exactly using it as your daily driver either. Just like my '53 merc m100. Bigblock engine, but uses less fuel in a year than most any hybrid because it only ever leaves the garage on warm sundays where there is no chance of rain.

 

[Mac'nCheese]

Just logical that if you think global warming is a "joke" you'd probably be in the same camp that thought evolution is a "joke" as well. Really, hard to imagine finding somebody believing in one and not the other.

I'm one.

 

[Statik]

I'm one.

Why?

 

[Mac'nCheese]

Why?

Because I believe in evolution but am hardly sold on the man-made, man-fixable, dangerous global warming stuff.