Doesn't a fully electric car end up costing you more?

[Lord Blackadder]

Because I believe in evolution but am hardly sold on the man-made, man-fixable, dangerous global warming stuff.

It's just too complicated an issue for most people to speak about with any authority (even though a lot of people weigh in on it who perhaps shouldn't). Even climatologists argue about it without total consensus. I am convinced that there is evidence that the earth is warming, and I am also convinced that human-generated pollution can be a big factor. It is not unlikely that humans might even be the primary cause.

Can we fix it? That's a simple question to a very complex issue. We certainly aren't going to save the world just by passing out Priuses right and left. At the same time, we know that people like millertime021, jovially driving around in his jeep, cannot possibly be improving things either.

My personal opinion is that there are too many vested interests to support the concept of global warming on a global scale. If the global warming advocates are right, we're screwed because people like millertime021 won't even recognize the problem until it's far too late. If they are wrong, nothing will happen and we'll all be blissfully driving Jeeps with 4.0L engines 300 years from now. We will either live or die as a wasteful, consumptive species.

One thing is for sure - whether you 'believe' in global warming or not, we all know we are too wasteful with our energy and resources and should try to be more efficient. It doesn't take a hippie environmentalist to figure that out.

 

[mstrze]

I find it almost humorous that the people talking about how great and energy-efficient a diesel engine is, also say that during the winters in colder climates they are plugging them in overnight or storing them in heated buildings...using most likely MORE energy than simply driving a normal gasoline-fueled vehicle in that same climate.

 

[renewed]

I find it almost humorous that the people talking about how great and energy-efficient a diesel engine is, also say that during the winters in colder climates they are plugging them in overnight or storing them in heated buildings...using most likely MORE energy than simply driving a normal gasoline-fueled vehicle in that same climate.

Take your common sense elsewhere!

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I find it almost humorous that the people talking about how great and energy-efficient a diesel engine is, also say that during the winters in colder climates they are plugging them in overnight or storing them in heated buildings...using most likely MORE energy than simply driving a normal gasoline-fueled vehicle in that same climate.

Where I live, there are far more gasoline engined vehicles with engine block warmers than there are diesel engines. Gas engines can freeze too.

A lot of people go overboard with the engine warmers too. If you choose an appropriately light oil, you can get by without an engine block heater in all but the harshest conditions. I ran my '99 Nissan Altima through the winter on 5W30 Mobil 1 and it started itself in -10F with little drama on a regular basis. It wasn't until the temperatures dropped below -20 that it started to struggle, although the battery was the weakpoint. If the temperatures were colder I could have switched to 0W30.

No, the cold start issues with diesels are a highly overblown issue.

 

[snberk103]

Because I believe in evolution but am hardly sold on the man-made, man-fixable, dangerous global warming stuff.

Me too.... to a point. We know that the globe is warming... there really isn't any debate anymore. What we don't know is how much of it is human-caused. We know some of it is .... you can't cut down the amount of forests that we have (turning large portions of the planet into deserts) without having some warming effect (forest shade cools the immediate area, and cities warm the immediate area - none of that is disputed by scientists.) Based on that alone, I would say we have warmed up the globe. But... was it .01 degrees, or 3 degrees?

I don't think that humans are going to hurt the planet at all (at least not geologically - LHC aside)..... however, it takes only a very small change in the climate to really frick up human society. A very small warming of the Atlantic produces hurricanes. A really small change produces droughts, or ice storms. All it takes is one, just one, extra 100 year weather event to knock out power to the entire Eastern Seaboard of North America. Can you imagine 100 year ice storms every 20 years? How about 100 year hurricanes hitting the Gulf Coast every 20 years? They just need a small - very small - change in global conditions to kick up. In between those events seems "normal" - and people think things aren't so bad... but it's those "rare storm events" that are happening more frequently that indicate something's not right.

What is California going to do when the water runs out? Just about every glacier in the western mountain ranges is melting up. The rivers that people drink are fed by the summer melt of the glaciers, which are then supposed to freeze up again during the winter.... like a battery. That battery is quickly draining to zero. No... they won't move the millions of people in the city... but if you are an American expect taxes to be levied to help pay for the huge desalination plants... And if you live in a small western town that gets it water from an already tapped out river.... well, if you think property prices are depressed in your neighbourhood now - wait 'til your town gets it's water cut off so the SoCal doesn't run out.

Mostly what I am saying is that small climate changes are barely noticed by most people most of the time, except they will be impacted more often by intense weather events. And a small percentage of people are highly impacted most of the time.

Hopefully you are in the former category. Pack an emergency closet. Plan on being on your own, with no outside help, for 72 hours. Chances are, in your life-time (unless you are over 60) you are going to need it more than once. Water is the single most important thing. Maybe shelter if you are in Alaska.

 

[iJohnHenry]

Take your common sense elsewhere!

Bush pilots had that.

They drained the oil from the plane upon landing, and took it inside.

 

[mstrze]

Me too.... to a point. We know that the globe is warming... there really isn't any debate anymore. What we don't know is how much of it is human-caused. We know some of it is .... you can't cut down the amount of forests that we have (turning large portions of the planet into deserts) without having some warming effect (forest shade cools the immediate area, and cities warm the immediate area - none of that is disputed by scientists.) Based on that alone, I would say we have warmed up the globe. But... was it .01 degrees, or 3 degrees?

Yet there are large swaths of the US that have far MORE trees than they did 100-150 years ago. In my hometown area in NE PA, old pictures show that most, if not all of the area's hills had the trees cut down for fuel and building homes. I can guarantee than many other locations back in the 1800s denuded their local forests for fuel too. Today, my hometown's hills are covered with a thick forest.

I think that there might be a net loss globally, but I am not sure.

 

[snberk103]

Yet there are large swaths of the US that have far MORE trees than they did 100-150 years ago. In my hometown area in NE PA, old pictures show that most, if not all of the area's hills had the trees cut down for fuel and building homes. I can guarantee than many other locations back in the 1800s denuded their local forests for fuel too. Today, my hometown's hills are covered with a thick forest.

I think that there might be a net loss globally, but I am not sure.

Not quite.... there are certain pockets of the US that have more trees... but not swaths. In 1620 the entire eastern bit of the continent was one large old-growth forest. Most of that was cut down in the past 300 years (remembering that there colonies on the continent before the revolution, and we have no way to really knowing how much of the forest was cut down by First Nations/American Indians).

It is good that more communities are starting to reforest some of these areas - but keep in mind that these "new" trees are simply replacing what used to be there - and then only in a limited scope. No trees will be replanted on the roads, on the buildings, on the malls, on the parking lots, in the downtown cores....

Want to hear something sad? That mighty forest of Sherwood - home to Robin Hood... is 432 hectares. That's all that's left of a forest that hid Robin and merry band from the Sheriff....

Globally, forest cover is going down. Whatever forests that go up in reforestation tend to be "thinner". In that, a mature virgin forest has a massive amount of bio mass per square metre/yard. In some places can measure the bio mass per square 10 metre/yard by the tonne. In a newly planted reforested area, the biomass is just a fraction of what it used to be. Biomass is also carbon - an old forest has pulled that carbon out of the air, and captured it. A cut down forest has some of its carbon put into long lived products (furniture, paper, houses) which has not gone back to the atmosphere, but all that non-wood biomass (carbon) is now back in the atmosphere. A new forest has only just started to pull that carbon back out of the atmosphere.

We're lucky. In our neighbourhood, we have mostly 'mature' forest. In another 20 years or so it will be considered 'old growth' again, at just over 100 years old. By 'old growth' standards it will still be considered an infant - since old growth forests average about 500 years or more.

 

[CaoCao]

IMO Hybrid>All Electric

I think that looks awesome


the average driver will only have to refill the fuel tank annually provided they do not drive more than 50 miles (80 km) a day.

when in 'sport-hybrid' mode the Karma will be capable of 100 miles per US gallon (2.4 l/100 km) of fuel consumed for a range of 300 miles (480 km).

the Karma features a 125 mph (201 km/h) top speed

is capable of reaching 60 mph (97 km/h) from a standstill in 5.8 seconds.

 

[mstrze]

Not quite.... there are certain pockets of the US that have more trees... but not swaths. In 1620 the entire eastern bit of the continent was one large old-growth forest. Most of that was cut down in the past 300 years (remembering that there colonies on the continent before the revolution, and we have no way to really knowing how much of the forest was cut down by First Nations/American Indians).

I'm in no way arguing that there are not fewer trees now than in the 1600s, but the fact that Pennsylvania more resembles 'Penn's Woods' now, then it did 150 years ago is saying something.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

when in 'sport-hybrid' mode the Karma will be capable of 100 miles per US gallon (2.4 l/100 km) of fuel consumed for a range of 300 miles (480 km).

Very nice...but how many of us can pony up $80000 or so for this car? It's the same issue as with the Tesla - yes, it works, but it's very expensive and a plaything for the rich. What we need is the "Model T" of electric or hybrid cars - a vehicle that pioneers new technologies and production techniques to produce a car that is an order of magnitude more efficient than today's cars but also reliable and affordable to the middle class. Making a luxury car like the Karma skirts around the problems of upgrading our electric grid and making alternative power affordable.

I'm in no way arguing that there are not fewer trees now than in the 1600s, but the fact that Pennsylvania more resembles 'Penn's Woods' now, then it did 150 years ago is saying something.

Unfortunately, reforestation in developed countries like the US is far, far outstripped by deforestation taking place in developing countries in Africa, South America and elesewhere. Pennsylvania is a drop in the bucket. The total forested area of the earth continues to shrink at a rapid rate.

 

[snberk103]

I'm in no way arguing that there are not fewer trees now than in the 1600s, but the fact that Pennsylvania more resembles 'Penn's Woods' now, then it did 150 years ago is saying something.

It is absolutely a good thing that some of the rural bits of Pennsylvania are starting to more resemble the original landscape. Is the state generally planting more trees (state-wide) than cutting down for new housing tracts? I don't know. If more and more of the reforested bits were left alone and allowed to grow then future generations will have a small taste of what that state used to look like.

As a child I spent some time in PA, just outside and then in Pittsburgh. Too young to remember much, but after moving away I do remember some of the drives through the state as we visited friends left behind.

 

[Liquorpuki]

Very nice...but how many of us can pony up $80000 or so for this car? It's the same issue as with the Tesla - yes, it works, but it's very expensive and a plaything for the rich. What we need is the "Model T" of electric or hybrid cars - a vehicle that pioneers new technologies and production techniques to produce a car that is an order of magnitude more efficient than today's cars but also reliable and affordable to the middle class. Making a luxury car like the Karma skirts around the problems of upgrading our electric grid and making alternative power affordable.

Leaf, Prius, Altima Hybrid, etc

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Leaf, Prius, Altima Hybrid, etc

Those vehicles are transitional - The goal is do come up with a car that uses considerably less gasoline/diesel than a traditional car, but costs the same and has the same range without sacrificing features. We aren't there yet.

 

[Statik]

Yet there are large swaths of the US that have far MORE trees than they did 100-150 years ago. In my hometown area in NE PA, old pictures show that most, if not all of the area's hills had the trees cut down for fuel and building homes. I can guarantee than many other locations back in the 1800s denuded their local forests for fuel too. Today, my hometown's hills are covered with a thick forest.

I think that there might be a net loss globally, but I am not sure.

You can be sure.

It isn't just humans chopping down trees that is the cause. I did a trip through the Rocky Mountains this summer as was shocked that all the forests I remember lining the highways as a child are now nothing more then dead or dieing trees. The cause? Warmer climate has allowed the mountain pine beetle population to skyrocket and kill huge amounts of trees.

So much so, that Canada's forests, which the world once counted on to absorb carbon, are now producing carbon instead from the rotting trees. linky --> http://cfs.nrcan.gc.ca/news/544

 

[CaoCao]

Very nice...but how many of us can pony up $80000 or so for this car? It's the same issue as with the Tesla - yes, it works, but it's very expensive and a plaything for the rich. What we need is the "Model T" of electric or hybrid cars - a vehicle that pioneers new technologies and production techniques to produce a car that is an order of magnitude more efficient than today's cars but also reliable and affordable to the middle class. Making a luxury car like the Karma skirts around the problems of upgrading our electric grid and making alternative power affordable.



Unfortunately, reforestation in developed countries like the US is far, far outstripped by deforestation taking place in developing countries in Africa, South America and elesewhere. Pennsylvania is a drop in the bucket. The total forested area of the earth continues to shrink at a rapid rate.

$49,900 starting price, 160, 230, or 300 mile batteries, 45 minutes to charge or 1 minute to swap

You can be sure.

It isn't just humans chopping down trees that is the cause. I did a trip through the Rocky Mountains this summer as was shocked that all the forests I remember lining the highways as a child are now nothing more then dead or dieing trees. The cause? Warmer climate has allowed the mountain pine beetle population to skyrocket and kill huge amounts of trees.

So much so, that Canada's forests, which the world once counted on to absorb carbon, are now producing carbon instead from the rotting trees. linky --> http://cfs.nrcan.gc.ca/news/544

And then there are the people burning down the Brazilian Rainforest...

 

[iJohnHenry]

And then there are the people burning down the Brazilian Rainforest...

Yes, to grow crops.

But the soil is so poor for this purpose, it is rendered barren after one or two harvests.

So they burn still more, in order to survive.

 

[CaoCao]

Yes, to grow crops.

But the soil is so poor for this purpose, it is rendered barren after one or two harvests.

So they burn still more, in order to survive.

Since when do you grow Round-Up Ready Soy Beans to survive?

 

[iJohnHenry]

Since when do you grow Round-Up Ready Soy Beans to survive?

I have no idea what the Hell that is, nor do I really care.

But it sounds like a cash-crop, as opposed to food for the table, so the result is the same.

 

[quagmire]

Pure electric vehicles right now are just not ready for prime time. The Leaf is a pure city commuting vehicle and would not be wise to have it as your only vehicle. Plus, Americans want a quick and easy fill up. Even 45 minutes is unacceptable for a recharge. We will be at hybrids for awhile and by the time pure electrics become practical, hydrogen might make a come back. Plug-in hybrids or electric vehicles with a range extender( as GM likes to label it) are the next stepping stone with the Volt leading the way.

 

[CaoCao]

Pure electric vehicles right now are just not ready for prime time. The Leaf is a pure city commuting vehicle and would not be wise to have it as your only vehicle. Plus, Americans want a quick and easy fill up. Even 45 minutes is unacceptable for a recharge. We will be at hybrids for awhile and by the time pure electrics become practical, hydrogen might make a come back. Plug-in hybrids or electric vehicles with a range extender( as GM likes to label it) are the next stepping stone with the Volt leading the way.

Or they could go with swappable batteries

 

[quagmire]

Or they could go with swappable batteries

How does that swapping of the batteries work? Is it something as simply opening the hood, lifting the battery out, and putting a new one in?

How most electric vehicles right now have the batteries in a place where the mechanic would have remove stuff to get to the battery and that is something I don't want to done to my vehicle.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

$49,900 starting price, 160, 230, or 300 mile batteries, 45 minutes to charge or 1 minute to swap

Better, but a starting price of $50000 is still double what I'd call "affordable". That's BMW 5-series territory. And at that $50k you only get the cheapest, lowest capacity battery pack.

 

[Liquorpuki]

Pure electric vehicles right now are just not ready for prime time. The Leaf is a pure city commuting vehicle and would not be wise to have it as your only vehicle. Plus, Americans want a quick and easy fill up. Even 45 minutes is unacceptable for a recharge.

Were you planning to only start charging your car 5 mins before you go to work? I don't get your logic about gassing up the car, where you gotta drive to the gas station, vs plugging it into your wall once you get home and not having to do anything.

We will be at hybrids for awhile and by the time pure electrics become practical, hydrogen might make a come back. Plug-in hybrids or electric vehicles with a range extender( as GM likes to label it) are the next stepping stone with the Volt leading the way.

We'll be at Hybrids for awhile, but mostly because of infrastructure issues. I look at all the cars that are not parked in a garage or structure and wonder where those chargers are going to be. Plus the electric grid has to be able to handle the extra load.

 

[tablo13]

Depends where you live. I live in BC, 95% of the electricity is Hydro.
In Vancouver a really large portion of the cab fleet are hybrids. I've talked to the drivers, and they save an enormous amount of money on gas.

For sure, traffic jams in Metro Vancouver is way worse than GTA. My family had a hard time going through suburb cities (Burnaby, Coquitlam, Surrey...), at least GTA has a big highway, those "highways" in Metro Vancouver have only two lanes each direction(not that more lanes help with traffic).