Doom Creator John Carmack Shares His Interactions With Steve Jobs

Discussion in ' News Discussion' started by MacRumors, May 14, 2018.

  1. MacRumors macrumors bot


    Apr 12, 2001

    John Carmack, best known for his work on iconic games that include Quake, Doom, and Wolfenstein 3D, today took to Facebook to share details on his interactions with Steve Jobs and to provide some insight into Jobs' opinion on gaming, what it was like working with Jobs, and what it felt like to participate in one of Jobs' famous keynotes.

    Carmack first interacted with Jobs when Jobs was still at NeXT, because Carmack wanted to add a "Developed on NeXT computers" logo to the original Doom game. His request was initially denied, but later Jobs changed his mind. Doom never included a made on NeXT label, but Carmack did go on to work with Jobs on other projects.


    Jobs, said Carmack, didn't appear to "think very highly of games" and seemed to wish "they weren't as important to his platforms as they turned out to be." Carmack was asked to discuss gaming requirements with Apple, and ended up having "a lot of arguments" with Jobs over the adoption of OpenGL. Jobs was good at talking with "complete confidence" about things he was "just plain wrong about."
    Carmack did convince Apple to adopt OpenGL, something Carmack says was "one of the biggest indirect impacts" on the PC industry that he's had, and he ended up doing several keynotes with Jobs. According to Carmack, keynotes were always a "crazy fire drill with not enough time to do things right."

    At one point, Jobs asked Carmack to do a keynote that was scheduled on the day of his wedding, with Jobs going as far as asking Carmack to reschedule the event, which Carmack declined to do.

    Carmack and Jobs' relationship began to fall apart after the launch of the iPhone, over a disagreement about web apps. Carmack was advocating for native apps while Jobs preferred web apps, leading to a heated dispute that later escalated when Carmack's comments were covered by the media.
    Carmack developed several now-defunct iOS games, the last of which was Rage for iOS, and while he had "allies" within Apple, he was "on the outs with Steve" and never again conversed with the Apple CEO.

    Carmack's full account of working with Steve Jobs, which can be found over on Facebook, is well worth reading for anyone interested in the history of Apple.

    Article Link: Doom Creator John Carmack Shares His Interactions With Steve Jobs
  2. bladerunner2000 macrumors 68020


    Jun 12, 2015
    Steve Jobs was always a prick. This is just more evidence of that.
  3. kanki1985 macrumors member

    Oct 8, 2013
    You develop a code, why would you want to put where you developed the code? also, it would have been good marketing for Next, why would Jobs deny that?
  4. Ma2k5 macrumors 68020


    Dec 21, 2012
  5. mukiex macrumors newbie

    May 31, 2016
  6. decafjava macrumors 68030


    Feb 7, 2011
    Too bad Doom for iOS was never updated. Interesting article though.
  7. Internet Enzyme macrumors 6502a

    Internet Enzyme

    Feb 21, 2016
    Very very interesting stuff. Made me melancholy at the end. Anecdotes like these are always great
  8. bladerunner2000, May 14, 2018
    Last edited: May 14, 2018

    bladerunner2000 macrumors 68020


    Jun 12, 2015
    Full Post:

    Steve Jobs

    My wife once asked me “Why do you drop what you are doing when Steve Jobs asks you to do something? You don’t do that for anyone else.”

    It is worth thinking about.

    As a teenage Apple computer fan, Jobs and Wozniak were revered figures for me, and wanting an Apple 2 was a defining characteristic of several years of my childhood. Later on, seeing NeXT at a computer show just as I was selling my first commercial software felt like a vision into the future. (But $10k+, yikes!)

    As Id Software grew successful through Commander Keen and Wolfenstein 3D, the first major personal purchase I made wasn’t a car, but rather a NeXT computer. It turned out to be genuinely valuable for our software development, and we moved the entire company onto NeXT hardware.

    We loved our NeXTs, and we wanted to launch Doom with an explicit “Developed on NeXT computers” logo during the startup process, but when we asked, the request was denied.

    Some time after launch, when Doom had begun to make its cultural mark, we heard that Steve had changed his mind and would be happy to have NeXT branding on it, but that ship had sailed. I did think it was cool to trade a few emails with Steve Jobs.

    Several things over the years made me conclude that, at his core, Steve didn’t think very highly of games, and always wished they weren’t as important to his platforms as they turned out to be. I never took it personally.

    When NeXT managed to sort of reverse-acquire Apple and Steve was back in charge, I was excited by the possibilities of a resurgent Apple with the virtues of NeXT in a mainstream platform.

    I was brought in to talk about the needs of games in general, but I made it my mission to get Apple to adopt OpenGL as their 3D graphics API. I had a lot of arguments with Steve.

    Part of his method, at least with me, was to deride contemporary options and dare me to tell him differently. They might be pragmatic, but couldn’t actually be good. “I have Pixar. We will make something [an API] that is actually good.”

    It was often frustrating, because he could talk, with complete confidence, about things he was just plain wrong about, like the price of memory for video cards and the amount of system bandwidth exploitable by the AltiVec extensions.

    But when I knew what I was talking about, I would stand my ground against anyone.

    When Steve did make up his mind, he was decisive about it. Dictates were made, companies were acquired, keynotes were scheduled, and the reality distortion field kicked in, making everything else that was previously considered into obviously terrible ideas.

    I consider this one of the biggest indirect impacts on the industry that I have had. OpenGL never seriously threatened D3D on PC, but it was critical at Apple, and that meant that it remained enough of a going concern to be the clear choice when mobile devices started getting GPUs. While long in the tooth now, it was so much better than what we would have gotten if half a dozen SoC vendors rolled their own API back at the dawn of the mobile age.

    I wound up doing several keynotes with Steve, and it was always a crazy fire drill with not enough time to do things right, and generally requiring heroic effort from many people to make it happen at all. I tend to think this was also a calculated part of his method.

    My first impression of “Keynote Steve” was him berating the poor stage hands over “This Home Depot sh*t” that was rolling out the display stand with the new Mac, very much not to his satisfaction. His complaints had a valid point, and he improved the quality of the presentation by caring about details, but I wouldn’t have wanted to work for him in that capacity.

    One time, my wife, then fiancée, and I were meeting with Steve at Apple, and he wanted me to do a keynote that happened to be scheduled on the same day as our wedding. With a big smile and full of charm, he suggested that we postpone it. We declined, but he kept pressing. Eventually my wife countered with a suggestion that if he really wanted “her” John so much, he should loan John Lassiter to her media company for a day of consulting. Steve went from full charm to ice cold really damn quick. I didn’t do that keynote.

    When I was preparing an early technology demo of Doom 3 for a keynote in Japan, I was having a hard time dealing with some of the managers involved that were insisting that I change the demo because “Steve doesn’t like blood.” I knew that Doom 3 wasn’t to his taste, but that wasn’t the point of doing the demo.

    I brought it to Steve, with all the relevant people on the thread. He replied to everyone with:

    “I trust you John, do whatever you think is great.”

    That goes a long way, and nobody said a thing after that.

    When my wife and I later started building games for feature phones (DoomRPG! Orcs&Elves!), I advocated repeatedly to Steve that an Apple phone could be really great. Every time there was a rumor that Apple might be working on a phone, I would refine the pitch to him. Once he called me at home on a Sunday (How did he even get my number?) to ask a question, and I enthused at length about the possibilities.

    I never got brought into the fold, but I was excited when the iPhone actually did see the light of day. A giant (for the time) true color display with a GPU! We could do some amazing things with this!

    Steve first talked about application development for iPhone at the same keynote I was demonstrating the new ID Tech 5 rendering engine on Mac, so I was in the front row. When he started going on about “Web Apps”, I was (reasonably quietly) going “Booo!!!”.

    After the public cleared out and the rest of us were gathered in front of the stage, I started urgently going on about how web apps are terrible, and wouldn’t show the true potential of the device. We could do so much more with real native access!

    Steve responded with a line he had used before: “Bad apps could bring down cell phone towers.” I hated that line. He could have just said “We aren’t ready”, and that would have been fine.

    I was making some guesses, but I argued that the iPhone hardware and OS provided sufficient protection for native apps. I pointed at a nearby engineer and said “Don’t you have an MMU and process isolation on the iPhone now?” He had a wide eyed look of don’t-bring-me-into-this, but I eventually got a “yes” out of him.

    I said that OS-X was surely being used for things that were more security critical than a phone, and if Apple couldn’t provide enough security there, they had bigger problems. He came back with a snide “You’re a smart guy John, why don’t you write a new OS?” At the time, my thought was, “F*ck you, Steve.”.

    People were backing away from us. If Steve was mad, Apple employees didn’t want him to associate the sight of them with the experience. Afterwards, one of the execs assured me that “Steve appreciates vigorous conversation”.

    Still deeply disappointed about it, I made some comments that got picked up by the press. Steve didn’t appreciate that.

    The Steve Jobs “hero / s**thead” rollercoaster was real, and after riding high for a long time, I was now on the down side. Someone told me that Steve explicitly instructed them to not give me access to the early iPhone SDK when it finally was ready.

    I wound up writing several successful iPhone apps on the side (all of which are now gone due to dropping 32 bit support, which saddens me), and I had many strong allies inside Apple, but I was on the outs with Steve.

    The last iOS product I worked on was Rage for iOS, which I thought set a new bar for visual richness on mobile, and also supported some brand new features like TV out. I heard that it was well received inside Apple.

    I was debriefing the team after the launch when I got a call. I was busy, so I declined it. A few minutes later someone came in and said that Steve was going to call me. Oops.

    Everyone had a chuckle about me “hanging up on Steve Jobs”, but that turned out to be my last interaction with him.

    As the public story of his failing health progressed, I started several emails to try to say something meaningful and positive to part on, but I never got through them, and I regret it.

    I corroborate many of the negative character traits that he was infamous for, but elements of the path that led to where I am today were contingent on the dents he left in the universe.

    I showed up for him.
  9. krause734 macrumors 6502a


    Jul 30, 2010
    Good leaders are sometimes jerks. They have to be to get things accomplished.
  10. jclo Editor


    Staff Member

    Dec 7, 2012
  11. WestonHarvey1 macrumors 68020

    Jan 9, 2007
    Prestige. Showing off that your game was developed on an exotic high end workstation would have been cool at the time.
  12. Naraxus macrumors 6502a


    Oct 13, 2016
    I'm sure Cook, Cue, Schiller etc will tweet shortly to defend their Dear Leader and dispute Carmack's account.....
  13. Stella, May 14, 2018
    Last edited: May 14, 2018

    Stella macrumors G3


    Apr 21, 2003
    I wouldn’t think very highly of someone who had the arrogance to think I’d reschedule something of importance such as a wedding, in the way SJ.

    SJ was plain wrong on web apps back then. The iPhone wasn’t 3G, slow connection, and data plans expensive. Things are different now, much more mature, web apps work well. Native apps have their place, as do web apps.
  14. Labeno macrumors 6502


    Jul 21, 2008
  15. JosephAW macrumors 68020


    May 14, 2012
    Those were exciting days os OS X and PowerPC. Bought into Connectix Virtual Game Station and Bungie was showing Halo and Oni and the adoption of OpenGL. Then the floor fell out with MS buying Bungie and Connectix and killed off all Mac projects.
    Then with Apple dropping the Power chip and end of most games being developed for it.
    --- Post Merged, May 14, 2018 ---
    Sounds like Carmack would be a great game CEO. Sticks to the truth no matter what reality distortion field is being presented.
  16. Edsel macrumors 6502

    Mar 18, 2010
    Over There
    I've been around IT before it was called IT. The one thing that stands out in my experience is; marketing prevails over everything. Another-words, the loudest and most compeling "voice" wins even though there might be a better alternative.
  17. bladerunner2000 macrumors 68020


    Jun 12, 2015
    Bill Hicks' take on people in advertising and marketing has always been and still is spot on.

  18. Solomani macrumors 68040


    Sep 25, 2012
    Alberto, Canado
    Maybe Carmack should be the next CEO of Apple?
  19. ctg7w6 macrumors 6502

    Oct 23, 2014
  20. ErikGrim macrumors 68040


    Jun 20, 2003
    Brisbane, Australia
    Moving and honest account. Carmack himself is very Jobs-like in wavering between genius and *******, so to see them interact over the years have always been fascinating.
  21. Regime2008 Suspended


    Oct 3, 2017
    Basshead in ATL
    John Cormack can come off as a complete d*ck, but he knows his stuff.
  22. lec0rsaire macrumors 65816

    Feb 23, 2017
    Two of my heroes! Carmack is a genius much like Steve. Without their control and direction the world would’ve been much more boring! Without his creativity and desire to keep pushing the envelope who knows what computer games would be like today.
  23. Count Blah macrumors 68040

    Count Blah

    Jan 6, 2004
    US of A
    he could talk, with complete confidence, about things he was just plain wrong about

    Who knew that Steve had so much in common with a lot of people around here.
  24. Tech198 macrumors G5

    Mar 21, 2011
    Australia, Perth
    I would agree with John in this.... The only reason Steve couldn't accept it, is because he didn't wanna go there.

    However, it is Apple after all... Its kind of sad to think you developed a great game, but is now obsolete on a platform just because Apple chooses a different path.
  25. Sevendaymelee macrumors 6502


    Mar 27, 2016
    Driven geniuses and visionaries are only so because they are almost psychotically obsessive about their ideas.

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