Doom Creator John Carmack Shares His Interactions With Steve Jobs

[Stella]

You say that like data plans were cheap and common at the time of the debut of the iPhone, but when in reality, they weren't.

Hmm.. no I didn't, I said they ( data plans ) were expensive ( thinking of North America )
"The iPhone wasn’t 3G, slow connection, and data plans expensive"

But that, of course, depends on the country you were in. Some are / were cheaper than others.

 

[tallscot]

PC gaming is still making a ton of dough, but I do my gaming on console now. It's around $1,000 for just a Titan video card, right? You can get a 50" 4K TV and a PS4 Pro for less than that! LOL

I have a PS4 connected to the HDMI input of my Dell monitor (second monitor) on my desk right here. It was $229 for a Slim on Amazon. Favorite games of the last year are both by Ubisoft in Canada – Assassin's Creed Origins, Far Cry 5.

I'm never going to buy a Windows computer ever again. Last one I bought was a Gateway!

Now I need powerful video cards to push Final Cut Pro X and Motion (I prefer Motion over After Effects). A new Mac Pro with a Vegas video card will be my next system, probably.

 

[shadowmatt]

Metal actually is an API, just a lower level one than OpenGL. I think the word I wanted to convey was "engine". By choosing to use home-grown Metal instead of supporting what will be the OpenGL replacement STANDARD (Vulkan), Apple has created a situation where it's asking game developers to have to write/rewrite a hefty portion of their code for a system that probably has far less than 1% of the market. We had poor enough support when we were using the same standard as Linux and that Microsoft Windows ALSO had available. You COULD write ONE game using OpenGL for all three platforms. This is something Valve did and it's the reason Half Life 2 (and Steam in general) has support for the Mac. You can convert DirectX to OpenGL via something like "Cider" but you lose efficiency once again and the Mac's GPU and drivers are inefficient enough as it is. This makes the Mac games SLOW compared to their PC counterparts.

Vulkan will be available for the PC and Linux. It's an uphill battle to displace DirectX, for sure, but at least it's technically possible to do so. With Apple being as secretive an closed-door as they are in macOS development, it's unlikely that Vulkan will be available for the Mac. So then what? Valve should make a special version of a game JUST for the Mac? If the Mac had a huge gaming market, this would make sense despite the extra effort involved. But it makes far less sense when the Mac is regarded as "not for gaming" as it is. By using Metal, Apple has ejected the Mac to the realm of ALMOST NO SUPPORT (i.e. Pre-Steam era) just as Steam and Valve were actually finally getting a lot of games to appear on the Mac. One had to notice how many fewer games appeared from ASPYR after Metal as adopted and OpenGL put on permanent hiatus.

As for OpenGL, it was never updated to the last/final version. That means a number of games that could have appeared for the Mac either ran slower (had to make up the calls in software rendering) or never appeared at all.

The point is that Apple chose to move away from a STANDARD off to its own closed system, just like with Lightning and going back, things like AppleTalk. Hey, why use an industry standard for interoperability and more choices available for hardware or software when you can pen your own and charge to use it and make a fortune instead??? That's the business way. The money making way. The way to FRAK consumers over! Thanks Apple for going BACKWARDS in time once again! We all LOVE using loads of expensive dongles and hubs to replace the once dedicated ports that used to exist on your computers too....

Twas just Apple speak "Metal 2 provides near-direct access to the graphics processing unit"

It is a shame Apple doesn't support Vulkan but Metal was around for a couple of years before it's release. There are only a few games that support Vulkan on the PC, Doom / Wolfenstein being the most notable as the engine was written for it I think.

Apple built Metal to get more out of the GPU of iPhones rather than for gaming in general. Probably all part of the plan of moving to their own GPU's and I think Metal 2 is integrated into their latest chips.

The same Vulcan supporting games on Windows would run on OSX. Unreal 4 and Unity 5 both support it and modern engines are capable of switching APIs quite easily. The new Hitman runs on all sorts of different APIs as does Doom. The people who write the engines have / are already doing that work.

I would guess that with Metal 2 most if not all the commands are transferable and there is a framework called Molten, used by Valve, where you can do that in your own application if you wish. They do OpenGl 2.0 as well. You don't need Cider these days.

It isn't as it was back in the early 2000's. The hardware has standardised, the API's and engines have matured and they are all designed to scale from a PS4 / XBOX One upwards, each of those with their own APIs in tow. Look at a few releases on the PC over the past 2 years. No Mans Sky, Mafia 3 suffered from being designed to run on the PS4 X68-64 cpu implementation and a good few AMD owners found their CPU lacked all the instructions necessary to run the game.

Most engines are designed to scale, so if Metal 2 lacks a feature you just wouldn't see it in the Mac version of the game, just as someone with a with a PS4 doesn't see the advanced effects a 1080 Ti is pumping out. Or how you don't get the Nvidia cloth effects on a AMD powered PC.

AppleTalk was fantastic in the day. Compared to trying to get a bunch of Windows 95 / 98 PCs networked, it was miraculous. So was Firewire compared to USB, Apple Display Port compared to DVI. 1 port for power, display and USB. Thunderbolt has done pretty well and USB C is becoming a standard. You cant complain about Apple not supporting standards and then complain when they do. They should provide a dongle for that though with the MBP, the tight sods. Given the numerous dongles you used to get in the box a few generations ago, it was annoying, more so that the power lead extension is also left out now.

But what nobody talks about is the new power block with a USB C connection on it. No more having to buy a new one once a year when the cable goes.

 

[lec0rsaire]

I had never known Doom was developed on Next. It’s a shame Steve didn’t prioritize gaming early in the game. (no pun intended!)

OS X could’ve been the dominant gaming platform which would’ve really hurt Windows market share. Many people who would otherwise prefer using OS X, use Windows just because of DX. It is a great API and Microsoft was smart to enter the console business so that devs would have even more incentive to develop for both platforms since porting code is much easier than developing for a custom architectures like the PS2, PS3, etc. Even though the PS3 was much more powerful, we only saw that advantage over the 360 through 1st party games like Uncharted 2,3 and God of War.

Many consoles in the past failed because programmers weren’t familiar with the architectures. The Atari Jaguar comes to mind. Superior to the SNES and Mega Drive but almost everyone used the 68000 as the primary CPU leading to no advantage from the extra power of the hardware.
[doublepost=1526411812][/doublepost]

Twas just Apple speak "Metal 2 provides near-direct access to the graphics processing unit"

It is a shame Apple doesn't support Vulkan but Metal was around for a couple of years before it's release. There are only a few games that support Vulkan on the PC, Doom / Wolfenstein being the most notable as the engine was written for it I think.

Apple built Metal to get more out of the GPU of iPhones rather than for gaming in general. Probably all part of the plan of moving to their own GPU's and I think Metal 2 is integrated into their latest chips.

The same Vulcan supporting games on Windows would run on OSX. Unreal 4 and Unity 5 both support it and modern engines are capable of switching APIs quite easily. The new Hitman runs on all sorts of different APIs as does Doom. The people who write the engines have / are already doing that work.

I would guess that with Metal 2 most if not all the commands are transferable and there is a framework called Molten, used by Valve, where you can do that in your own application if you wish. They do OpenGl 2.0 as well. You don't need Cider these days.

It isn't as it was back in the early 2000's. The hardware has standardised, the API's and engines have matured and they are all designed to scale from a PS4 / XBOX One upwards, each of those with their own APIs in tow. Look at a few releases on the PC over the past 2 years. No Mans Sky, Mafia 3 suffered from being designed to run on the PS4 X68-64 cpu implementation and a good few AMD owners found their CPU lacked all the instructions necessary to run the game.

Most engines are designed to scale, so if Metal 2 lacks a feature you just wouldn't see it in the Mac version of the game, just as someone with a with a PS4 doesn't see the advanced effects a 1080 Ti is pumping out. Or how you don't get the Nvidia cloth effects on a AMD powered PC.

AppleTalk was fantastic in the day. Compared to trying to get a bunch of Windows 95 / 98 PCs networked, it was miraculous. So was Firewire compared to USB, Apple Display Port compared to DVI. 1 port for power, display and USB. Thunderbolt has done pretty well and USB C is becoming a standard. You cant complain about Apple not supporting standards and then complain when they do. They should provide a dongle for that though with the MBP, the tight sods. Given the numerous dongles you used to get in the box a few generations ago, it was annoying, more so that the power lead extension is also left out now.

But what nobody talks about is the new power block with a USB C connection on it. No more having to buy a new one once a year when the cable goes.

Metal was a step in the right direction. No doubt about that but we still haven’t seen much adoption by AAA devs outside of iOS gaming. Mafia 3 was an absolute disaster. Due to the way it was developed it requires Crysis type hardware for a game which just isn’t worth it when GTA 5 provides superior gameplay and is extremely optimized and scalable. Honestly every Mafia game had its problems. Mafia 1 remains the best one in terms of the story as well as the code. Mafia 2 while also good suffered from really sketchy controls. They were just not tight and this took a lot of the fun out of the game.

This Nvidia/AMD situation is not new though. It’s been this way for a long time. Doom 3 always ran better on nVidia hardware while HL2 was heavily optimized for ATI. I remember my 9500 Pro running HL2 as smooth as butter with high settings while I only got 30 FPS on Doom 3 with as much eye candy as possible. I never got to run the game on Ultra since no hardware at launch could really handle it, similar to Crysis 1 at launch. For a while everything was about being able to run Crysis well. That was the standard.

ID softwares work as always is top notch. Their only misstep was Rage which was a radical departure with the introduction of megatextures designed for outdoor environments. It was finally perfected for ID Tech 6. Doom 4 and Wolfenstein 2 are both gorgeous, smooth games and both are 2 of the best single player FPS of the decade IMO.

 

[Millah]

Good, because it's deserved. If Apple didn't treat it's consumers like garbage releasing garbage product after garbage product filled with garbage limitations, perhaps the criticisms would stop?

My comment has absolutely nothing to do with Apples products. I’m simply refuting a statement you made about this forum being nothing but fanboys “drinking the kool aid.” You are just flat out wrong.

 

[827538]

If only Apple would adopt Vulkan.

 

[krause734]

No, you don't have to be a jerk to get things accomplished. Actually, being a jerk in a leadership role has the exact opposite long-term effect on your team's morale -- they will only work the absolute requested minimum and start looking for other opportunities elsewhere. And with external peers, things get worse even quicker -- why the heck would ANYBODY in their right mind want to interact and do business with a jerk?

There was a study about social behavior in an ant farm. The study revealed that ants that demonstrated more social behavior and stopped to share food reserves with other ants actually made it faster to their destination than those who didn't.

Case in point:
Steve Jobs was a jerk/perfectionist when it came to product development. Ground breaking innovative products.
Tim Cook is a nice guy. Stagnation and quality issues.
Sure you can be a nice guy and get stuff done but it takes a certain type of personality to demand the best and fear (and money) can be a good motivator.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

AppleTalk was fantastic in the day. Compared to trying to get a bunch of Windows 95 / 98 PCs networked, it was miraculous. So was Firewire compared to USB, Apple Display Port compared to DVI. 1 port for power, display and USB. Thunderbolt has done pretty well and USB C is becoming a standard. You cant complain about Apple not supporting standards and then complain when they do.

There's a difference between supporting a "standard" (I assume you mean USB-C on the exactly ONE lowest possible model Mac while not supporting on any other Macs for YEARS) and REMOVING STANDARDS. It's great to ADD USB-C. That doesn't mean you should remove every single other port on the damn notebook! (And then leave only ONE stinking port that's shared with the power!) I really don't want to have to carry a hub with me in order to use more than one device. It kind of defeats the purpose in making these things thinner and thinner, etc. if I have to carry more equipment around in order to connect anything.

Since Apple has long since chosen to ditch the internal expansion port on Macbook Pros, this is pretty much unavoidable. They don't even include a handy micro-SD reader anymore (keep that reader dongle with you too on vacation for your REAL camera). Hell, they don't even include a lightning port and that's their stupid non-standard! If the iPhone came with USB-C, you'd be all set! But NO!!!!! Let's go USB-C on one thing and Lightning on another thing and full-sized on another thing and still use ancient spinning hard drives on iMacs, etc. etc. And don't forget bringing us that keyboard "strip" thingy instead of supporting touch-screen monitors that are useful for you know, using Windows on the same hardware and being able to draw on the screen, etc. that Apple just doesn't support!? Horrible, horrible designs in terms of functionality lately. Sadly, it used to be Microsoft that had the horrible designs. Their Surface Pro is actually becoming quite attractive lately by doing what Apple used to do and then doing it better (touchscreen/drawing/tablet capability).

I can't help but wonder if Steve were still alive, if some of the worst offenses would have been wiped clean by execute ORDER. Jony Ive seems to need a heavy hand to do good work and Tim Cook knows almost NOTHING about technology (unlike Steve) and so there's no one to watch Jony but Jony and look what we get from him.... Trash Can Mac Pros with no expansion and no updates. Mac Minis that are now worthless and not updated. A $5000 iMac Pro that is useful for very few. External graphics card support that works with almost no cards at all and poorly with all and doesn't support them in Windows mode and doesn't support older model TB1 & TB2 Macs.....

But hey, they have lots and LOTS of (overpriced) phones! Yay Apple! Those of us that loved OS X based Mac Computers have been first stripped of the "Computer" in "Apple Computer" and are now more or less ignored while Apple slowly forces Macs to run their App Store only...the one store everyone HATES.

I think there is perhaps no better time to bring back the name CRAPPLE than now.

 

[rboerdijk]

NO ONE really wants to build an entire new API around a single system that has probably less than 1% of the gaming market.

That's so true... but with Khronos recently having announced Vulkan coming to mac opens up at least the possibility. Metal being used in AAA titles: I doubt that's going to happen (at least not on a larger scale).

 

[ErikGrim]

Metal being used in AAA titles: I doubt that's going to happen (at least not on a larger scale).

Plenty of AAA titles here:

Feral Interactive
- F1 2016 (Ego Engine 4.0)
- F1 2017
- Hitman (Glacier Engine)
- Total War: Warhammer (Total War Engine 3)
- Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War III (Essence Engine 4)
- Bioshock Remastered (Unreal Engine 2.5?)
- DiRT Rally (Ego 2.5)
- Deus Ex: Mankind Divided (Glacier Engine)
- Rise of the Tomb Raider (Foundation Engine)
Announced:

Aspyr
- Mafia III (Illusion Engine)

Blizzard
- World of Warcraft (WoW Engine)
Open beta:
- StarCraft II (SC2 Engine)
- Heroes of the Storm (SC2 Engine)

Epic Games (Unreal Engine 4)
- Obduction
- Refunct
- Everspace
- Fortnite
- Ark: Survival Evolved
- Observer
Open Beta:
- Unreal Tournament
Announced:

Unity (Unity 5)
- Ballistic Overkill
- Cities: Skilines
- Micro Machines World Series
- Universe Sandbox 2
- Battletech
Announced:
- Space Pirate Trainer (VR!, version running on the Mac mentioned at WWDC)

Telltale Games (Telltale Tool)
- Marvel's Guardians of the Galaxy: The Telltale Series
- Minecraft: Story Mode - Season Two
- Batman: The Enemy Within - The Telltale Series

Others
- The Witness (custom engine) - Thekla
- Headlander (Buddah Engine) - Double Fine Studios
- War Thunder (Dagor Engine 4) - Gaijin
Open beta:
- Fugl (custom engine) - Team Fugl
- Arma III (Real Virtuality 4) - Virtual Programming
Announced:
- X-Plane 11 (custom engine) - Laminar Research
- Dota 2 (Source 2 via MoltenVK) - Valve

 

[rboerdijk]

With Apple being as secretive an closed-door as they are in macOS development, it's unlikely that Vulkan will be available for the Mac.

Vulkan on mac ( no thanks to Apple ):
https://www.khronos.org/news/press/vulkan-applications-enabled-on-apple-platforms
[doublepost=1526423459][/doublepost]

Plenty of AAA titles here:

Surprising it's so many... still, I think it would have been better for everyone if Apple would have gone with Vulkan (at least developers and gamers).. but well, at least there is MoltenVK bringing Vulkan to macOS, so there's hope for ports of Vulkan games.

 

[tipoo]

I'm reminded of this clip with the half jab of "Apple finally got its act together on graphics", there was clearly some friction between them, and how could there not be, but also respect.

 

[VictorTango777]

Good leaders are sometimes jerks. They have to be to get things accomplished.

It's curious that people who act this way don't seem to like it when others act the same way towards them.

Outside observers justify that kind of behavior because they only see it from one person at a time (their hero) and they are fascinated by the novelty. But what happens when everybody in the room decides to start behaving that way all at the same time?
[doublepost=1526427096][/doublepost]

He was notorious for vigorously disagreeing with people, then going off and realizing he was wrong after thinking about it, only to come back and position it like it was his idea in the first place

Best comment so far.

if we go back far enough in people's comment histories, I'm sure we would find many people agreeing that Apple should not allow developers to create third party applications, and that nobody needs copy/paste on iPhone.

 

[Stella]

And that list is a drop of water in the Atlantic Ocean when comparing against aaa games available on the PC!

Plenty of AAA titles here:

Feral Interactive
- F1 2016 (Ego Engine 4.0)
- F1 2017
- Hitman (Glacier Engine)
- Total War: Warhammer (Total War Engine 3)
- Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War III (Essence Engine 4)
- Bioshock Remastered (Unreal Engine 2.5?)
- DiRT Rally (Ego 2.5)
- Deus Ex: Mankind Divided (Glacier Engine)
- Rise of the Tomb Raider (Foundation Engine)
Announced:

Aspyr
- Mafia III (Illusion Engine)

Blizzard
- World of Warcraft (WoW Engine)
Open beta:
- StarCraft II (SC2 Engine)
- Heroes of the Storm (SC2 Engine)

Epic Games (Unreal Engine 4)
- Obduction
- Refunct
- Everspace
- Fortnite
- Ark: Survival Evolved
- Observer
Open Beta:
- Unreal Tournament
Announced:

Unity (Unity 5)
- Ballistic Overkill
- Cities: Skilines
- Micro Machines World Series
- Universe Sandbox 2
- Battletech
Announced:
- Space Pirate Trainer (VR!, version running on the Mac mentioned at WWDC)

Telltale Games (Telltale Tool)
- Marvel's Guardians of the Galaxy: The Telltale Series
- Minecraft: Story Mode - Season Two
- Batman: The Enemy Within - The Telltale Series

Others
- The Witness (custom engine) - Thekla
- Headlander (Buddah Engine) - Double Fine Studios
- War Thunder (Dagor Engine 4) - Gaijin
Open beta:
- Fugl (custom engine) - Team Fugl
- Arma III (Real Virtuality 4) - Virtual Programming
Announced:
- X-Plane 11 (custom engine) - Laminar Research
- Dota 2 (Source 2 via MoltenVK) - Valve

 

[RedKite]

I wouldn’t think very highly of someone who had the arrogance to think I’d reschedule something of importance such as a wedding, in the way SJ.

SJ was plain wrong on web apps back then. The iPhone wasn’t 3G, slow connection, and data plans expensive. Things are different now, much more mature, web apps work well. Native apps have their place, as do web apps.

Gotta agree..... but data plans weren’t apple’s fault surely?? That’s the fault of the networks. In Europe they weren’t too bad.... I recall using a wap phone that had a meagre but usable amount of data with it, like despite using it frequently I never overran my data allowance. Was good for checking out my local cinema times
[doublepost=1526433214][/doublepost]

Plenty of AAA titles here:

Feral Interactive
- F1 2016 (Ego Engine 4.0)
- F1 2017
- Hitman (Glacier Engine)
- Total War: Warhammer (Total War Engine 3)
- Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War III (Essence Engine 4)
- Bioshock Remastered (Unreal Engine 2.5?)
- DiRT Rally (Ego 2.5)
- Deus Ex: Mankind Divided (Glacier Engine)
- Rise of the Tomb Raider (Foundation Engine)
Announced:

Aspyr
- Mafia III (Illusion Engine)

Blizzard
- World of Warcraft (WoW Engine)
Open beta:
- StarCraft II (SC2 Engine)
- Heroes of the Storm (SC2 Engine)

Epic Games (Unreal Engine 4)
- Obduction
- Refunct
- Everspace
- Fortnite
- Ark: Survival Evolved
- Observer
Open Beta:
- Unreal Tournament
Announced:

Unity (Unity 5)
- Ballistic Overkill
- Cities: Skilines
- Micro Machines World Series
- Universe Sandbox 2
- Battletech
Announced:
- Space Pirate Trainer (VR!, version running on the Mac mentioned at WWDC)

Telltale Games (Telltale Tool)
- Marvel's Guardians of the Galaxy: The Telltale Series
- Minecraft: Story Mode - Season Two
- Batman: The Enemy Within - The Telltale Series

Others
- The Witness (custom engine) - Thekla
- Headlander (Buddah Engine) - Double Fine Studios
- War Thunder (Dagor Engine 4) - Gaijin
Open beta:
- Fugl (custom engine) - Team Fugl
- Arma III (Real Virtuality 4) - Virtual Programming
Announced:
- X-Plane 11 (custom engine) - Laminar Research
- Dota 2 (Source 2 via MoltenVK) - Valve

I remember when I sold my pc and just had a mac to get by on. The games.... oh the games. They were always so poor and delivery methods pathetic. Steam was just taking off on pc and I already had a few titles so was left with sourcing disc games on mac. Picked up Halo. That was great but pretty much the only lasting experience I have of those games..... though buried in my memories is an old ball rolling game that used a powerbook’s hdd accelerometer as a control input method. And some dinosaur flying game? Had to abandon computer gaming and took up consoles. Even now I haven’t gone back to pc gaming. But I do find consoles easier and nicer to use

[as I wrote this post my iPad on display keyboard froze up. You wouldnt get bugs like this with Steve jobs. I mean an iTunes syncing bug that had like 10k replies on the Apple support forum yea....]

 

[shadowmatt]

That's so true... but with Khronos recently having announced Vulkan coming to mac opens up at least the possibility. Metal being used in AAA titles: I doubt that's going to happen (at least not on a larger scale).

Already is Unreal Engine 4, Unity 5 and Steam VR all support it.
[doublepost=1526467679][/doublepost]

There's a difference between supporting a "standard" (I assume you mean USB-C on the exactly ONE lowest possible model Mac while not supporting on any other Macs for YEARS) and REMOVING STANDARDS. It's great to ADD USB-C. That doesn't mean you should remove every single other port on the damn notebook! (And then leave only ONE stinking port that's shared with the power!) I really don't want to have to carry a hub with me in order to use more than one device. It kind of defeats the purpose in making these things thinner and thinner, etc. if I have to carry more equipment around in order to connect anything.

Since Apple has long since chosen to ditch the internal expansion port on Macbook Pros, this is pretty much unavoidable. They don't even include a handy micro-SD reader anymore (keep that reader dongle with you too on vacation for your REAL camera). Hell, they don't even include a lightning port and that's their stupid non-standard! If the iPhone came with USB-C, you'd be all set! But NO!!!!! Let's go USB-C on one thing and Lightning on another thing and full-sized on another thing and still use ancient spinning hard drives on iMacs, etc. etc. And don't forget bringing us that keyboard "strip" thingy instead of supporting touch-screen monitors that are useful for you know, using Windows on the same hardware and being able to draw on the screen, etc. that Apple just doesn't support!? Horrible, horrible designs in terms of functionality lately. Sadly, it used to be Microsoft that had the horrible designs. Their Surface Pro is actually becoming quite attractive lately by doing what Apple used to do and then doing it better (touchscreen/drawing/tablet capability).

I can't help but wonder if Steve were still alive, if some of the worst offenses would have been wiped clean by execute ORDER. Jony Ive seems to need a heavy hand to do good work and Tim Cook knows almost NOTHING about technology (unlike Steve) and so there's no one to watch Jony but Jony and look what we get from him.... Trash Can Mac Pros with no expansion and no updates. Mac Minis that are now worthless and not updated. A $5000 iMac Pro that is useful for very few. External graphics card support that works with almost no cards at all and poorly with all and doesn't support them in Windows mode and doesn't support older model TB1 & TB2 Macs.....

But hey, they have lots and LOTS of (overpriced) phones! Yay Apple! Those of us that loved OS X based Mac Computers have been first stripped of the "Computer" in "Apple Computer" and are now more or less ignored while Apple slowly forces Macs to run their App Store only...the one store everyone HATES.

I think there is perhaps no better time to bring back the name CRAPPLE than now.

USB-C is the new standard and it supports numerous older standards, but yes you do need a dongle.

I went from a 17" MBP with all the ports you ever needed to the new 15" MBP with USB-C. Half the ports on the 17" were never used, or hardly used. Ethernet, display port and half the USB ports were never occupied as it was a laptop, along with the DVD drive there was a lot of wasted space.

The thinking is, that for the brief time you want to transfer files from an SD Card you can use a dongle and not be that disadvantaged. Another train of thought goes alone the lines of why not buy a £10 USB-C SD Card reader than a USB1/2 reader. Why compromise the design & speed of a £2000 bit of kit because you wont pay £10 for a new reader.

Im still not convinced by touch screens in a professional environment. Desktop apps are not really designed for them and no one likes reaching up to the screen all the time. Windows touch screens didn't really take off, Win 8 design was rolled back for Windows 10 and while the surface adverts look nice, 99.9% of the world doesn't work like that, and those that do would already have drawing tablets. The surface laptops, with their very high failure rate, are even more poorly designed with a alcantara cover which you cant remove or clean. How long is a material cover going to last compared to aluminium?

"External graphics card support that works with almost no cards" Meaning you have no concept of external graphics cards. You have been able to do this for years with the editing of 2 lines, in 2 plist files. Hence why I own one of the worlds fastest Mac Minis https://www.3dmark.com/fs/1839002

You may also notice that benchmark was in Windows (8) and that OS has supported external GPUs since 7, 8 auto configures them if you install Windows under UEFI rather than bootcamp.
[doublepost=1526468367][/doublepost]

PC gaming is still making a ton of dough, but I do my gaming on console now. It's around $1,000 for just a Titan video card, right? You can get a 50" 4K TV and a PS4 Pro for less than that! LOL

I have a PS4 connected to the HDMI input of my Dell monitor (second monitor) on my desk right here. It was $229 for a Slim on Amazon. Favorite games of the last year are both by Ubisoft in Canada – Assassin's Creed Origins, Far Cry 5.

I'm never going to buy a Windows computer ever again. Last one I bought was a Gateway!

Now I need powerful video cards to push Final Cut Pro X and Motion (I prefer Motion over After Effects). A new Mac Pro with a Vegas video card will be my next system, probably.

Running Far Cry 5 on a 1080Ti in 4K with all the settings on max is a world away from the PS4 struggling to keep 30fps.

Even loading the game etc... a NVMe drive compared to an SSD or the slow ass HD in a PS4 is a world apart.

Sea of Thieves being one. I could boot my PC, load the game, start a crew and be in the game waiting for my friends whilst their XBOX is still booting.

It is expensive, but so is buying a PS4 Pro, adding an SSD and then paying double the cost per game compared to PC. A PS4 Pro can either hit 60fps at 1080 or 30fps with nice rendering. On a PC do don't need to compromise and you can enjoy the game as it was designed.

 

[Donoban]

Good leaders are sometimes jerks. They have to be to get things accomplished.

You keep believing that.

 

[ipponrg]

[doublepost=1526433214][/doublepost]
I remember when I sold my pc and just had a mac to get by on. The games.... oh the games. They were always so poor and delivery methods pathetic. Steam was just taking off on pc and I already had a few titles so was left with sourcing disc games on mac. Picked up Halo. That was great but pretty much the only lasting experience I have of those games..... though buried in my memories is an old ball rolling game that used a powerbook’s hdd accelerometer as a control input method. And some dinosaur flying game? Had to abandon computer gaming and took up consoles. Even now I haven’t gone back to pc gaming. But I do find consoles easier and nicer to use

[as I wrote this post my iPad on display keyboard froze up. You wouldnt get bugs like this with Steve jobs. I mean an iTunes syncing bug that had like 10k replies on the Apple support forum yea....]

Not listed was also Riot's League of Legends.

Remember that back then, Macs were running off RISC processors. That coupled with the lack of Direct3D caused a lot of hurdles for software companies to port over from PC to Mac. Since Intel chipsets came to the Mac ecosystem, it's been slightly better.

There just simply aren't enough gamers in the Mac ecosystem (due to obvious reasons) to warrant the cost of porting. Most serious gamers have a PC rig, and it doesn't help that e-sports is heavily promoting PC accessories. Even Blizzard stopped porting their games to Mac, and they used to be reliable for porting their games.

 

[Kirb112]

Lol. Doom

 

[Stella]

Gotta agree..... but data plans weren’t apple’s fault surely??
[/doublepost]

Of course not. I don't think anyone has ever suggested otherwise, and rightfully so.

 

[LordVic]

Lol. Doom

Greatest action movie ever right?!

 

[antonis]

Vulkan will be available for the PC and Linux. It's an uphill battle to displace DirectX, for sure, but at least it's technically possible to do so. With Apple being as secretive an closed-door as they are in macOS development, it's unlikely that Vulkan will be available for the Mac. So then what? Valve should make a special version of a game JUST for the Mac? If the Mac had a huge gaming market, this would make sense despite the extra effort involved. But it makes far less sense when the Mac is regarded as "not for gaming" as it is. By using Metal, Apple has ejected the Mac to the realm of ALMOST NO SUPPORT (i.e. Pre-Steam era) just as Steam and Valve were actually finally getting a lot of games to appear on the Mac. One had to notice how many fewer games appeared from ASPYR after Metal as adopted and OpenGL put on permanent hiatus.

This. When your share in a specific market is close to zero, you HAVE to follow the open/common standards. Going proprietary in this said market doesn't make much sense.

 

[FactVsOpinion]

I wonder why he and others had a falling out with Steve Jobs... ?

The common denominator suggests that Steve Jobs was the problem.

famous man with countless interactions. even a problem with 1 in 1000 gives a bunch when you deal with enough people
[doublepost=1526626935][/doublepost]

This is my biggest disappointment with Apple, and my most negative viewpoint about Steve.

Just because, HE, INDIVIDUALLY did not want/like gaming, he utterly destroyed Apple in the gaming market for literally decades and still to this very day it's nowhere.

Apple could have RULED gaming, and right now even have a world beating console out as part of it's product line, but no. Steve single-handedly destroyed this from being a reality.

And I think it's to late to recover. Tim and Ive are so far each other's butt holes re the whole health and fitness sales pitch, and saving the planet, blah blah, blah, I cannot see until they go (hurry up) and fresh bllod may come in to start to develop something for the "Entertainment Market"

you may have the casual direction backward.... it's possible that he said gaming wasn't important BECAUSE Macs were not good options for gaming

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

famous man with countless interactions. even a problem with 1 in 1000 gives a bunch when you deal with enough people
[doublepost=1526626935][/doublepost]

you may have the casual direction backward.... it's possible that he said gaming wasn't important BECAUSE Macs were not good options for gaming

Why wouldn't gaming be good options for Macs unless Apple is Apple and ignores the Mac hardware? In the early 21st Century, Apple actually had some reasonable hardware for gaming (all the PowerMacs were capable of using flashed PC gaming cards and they weren't incredibly overpriced like the later Mac Pro that just kept climbing and climbing for the entry price while PCs were getting cheaper and cheaper for something gaming capable. The move to Intel processors should have been absolute GOLD for Apple and gaming. No, this is when they decided to make Mac Minis and iMacs the virtual only standard desktops while making the Mac Pro priced out of most gamers' budgets (it's not for gaming that's why it's "PRO" except that it was the ONLY Mac even remotely appropriate for gaming at that point and the term "PRO" soon became a fracking JOKE as Apple decided ALL their notebooks were "PRO" computers as the name drove more sales even if it came to mean anything but professional.

No, the problem with Macs for gaming was Apple's continual stupid decisions. They refused to keep up with OpenGL updates as they became available. They were YEARS behind most of the time. This made it rather difficult to do quick and easy ports from Windows even when there were equivalent hardware calls available. It didn't matter too much, though as most of the GPUs Apple chose to use in Macs didn't support newer calls anyway! I remember when I found out the NVidia chipset in my 2008 Macbook Pro (one of the better ones they ever made, IMO for hardware) had HD video hardware support if you ran Windows on it, but not in OS X because Apple chose to skip that generation of chips for hardware decoding support. Thank you Apple! The question in my mind was always, WHY IN HELL can't Apple put a DESKTOP GPU in a "desktop" Mac? By this, I meant the Mac Mini was already TINY. If they made it just a little bit bigger (still less than half the size of a Playstation), it could have supported a full size desktop GPU or even a desktop video card SLOT to allow one to put high quality GPUs in the machine.

The Mac Mini at one point had incredible CPU potential (e.g. My 2012 Mini has a quad-core i7 with RAID0 internal drives that can be upgraded to RAID0 solid state drives! Even in 2018, the machine is not "slow" for most uses other than modern gaming. Imagine if Apple had included a desktop GPU option in that machine? My config was already only $1100! They could have sold it at $1500 with a real GPU and/or slot and it would have been a KILLER gaming rig, even just running Windows. Tiny, portable and high-powered??? Apple BLEW IT. Instead, they decided to LOWER the power options for the Mini, feeling it was "cannibalizing" iMac sales or even Mac Pro ones (for "server" use). Way to go Apple! You are run by MORONS when it comes to having ANY share of the gaming market what-so-ever. An upgraded Mini couldn't possibly "cannibalize" sales when there is not a single gaming focus Mac for sale! The iMac has issues with heat dissipation, so it wasn't a good gaming candidate unless they moved the bus to the base like the early "flower pot" model had its electronics. But the Mini in a slightly expanded form would have been PERFECTS for a portable gaming rig that would be great for LAN parties, (again even running Windows to start while the Mac made progress in its own expanded gaming market with the help of STEAM). But no no no. Apple dropped the ball as usual since all they REALLY care about are phones these days.

 

[NathanWind]

Because human psychology.

Not an argument.