doubts about voice turn by turn GPS

[iJon]

Apple stands to gain a lot by not addressing this issue themselves. They will release Core Location and let people like TomTom make the turn by turn navigation. TomTom will charge whatever they like, Apple will then get 30% of their money for doing nothing.

Brilliant idea.

 

[t0mat0]

Apple stands to gain a lot by not addressing this issue themselves. They will release Core Location and let people like TomTom make the turn by turn navigation. TomTom will charge whatever they like, Apple will then get 30% of their money for doing nothing.

Brilliant idea.

Technically, i'd say a royalty is nearer doing nothing. Apple would be sorting out all the back end App Store stuff for any app.
It would be interesting to find out if some of these kind of developer work has got shelved by Apple a bit e.g. due to with MobileMe, the carnage that was the launch 24 hours, and the massive discrepancy between stock and demand.

 

[pj rage]

I thought I'd pop back in here to note a few things that I've noticed lately:

-Since 2.0.1, my gps has been locating me at least twice as fast, and seems to be more accurate and tracks a little smoother too. There's still a little room for improvement, but it seems much better.

-I never tried before 2.0.1, so I don't know if it's a new feature, but I tried locating myself while my phone said "No Service," and it WAS able to locate me, but, of course, it was not able to load the map data.

-I tried to further support the above by putting the phone into airplane mode and trying to locate me, but this did NOT work, it gave me a gray dot instead of blue and was not updating the position on the blank grid as it was with "No Service." While in airplane mode, it did appear to be tracking me for like 10 seconds, but then it cut to the gray dot. Perhaps the "No Service" tracking would have eventually cut out too, I don't know, but I did leave it tracking with "No Service" for several minutes and it didn't gray out, so ? By the time I got out of Airplane mode, I was back in service, so I couldn't test further.

I'm not sure if it TRULY had no service, or if it just said that but it was a bug and it actually had service. Considering it said No Service for quite a bit of time and was definitely not loading any map data, I think it really did have no service. This would indicate to me that it should be possible to locate yourself without having service, which will make turn-by-turn apps that much better, assuming they can cache an area of map for the dead zone you are in, or for an area you plan to visit.

 

[trihard]

When???

I read every post in this thread this am, and I just want to know when will a turn by turn app come out? The iPhone will have its 4 week birthday in 2 days, and all we have is rumor, and some apple quotes. Nothing on TeleNav's website. Nothing on TomTom's website. All we have is places like Engadget and others saying they have heard stuff, etc. Why won't either of these (or a third party) actually advertise this for real (that it is coming), if in fact they are working on it? Other developers sure have, especially for upcoming games (like Star Wars).

 

[wreckshop]

If a turn by turn GPS app comes out, it will most likely be from telenav. Unless I'm mistaken, companies like Tom Tom require local map and voice data, which takes up gigabytes of space, and I just dont see the app store allowing a single app to hog up that much bandwidth from its servers.

I could be wrong, but it looks like to me anytime an app is updated, you redownload and install the whole thing all over again.

 

[marksman]

If a turn by turn GPS app comes out, it will most likely be from telenav. Unless I'm mistaken, companies like Tom Tom require local map and voice data, which takes up gigabytes of space, and I just dont see the app store allowing a single app to hog up that much bandwidth from its servers.

I could be wrong, but it looks like to me anytime an app is updated, you redownload and install the whole thing all over again.

There is a 2gig application limit.

Both Tom Tom and Telenav have publically stated they are working on iPhone products.

 

[d21mike]

If a turn by turn GPS app comes out, it will most likely be from telenav. Unless I'm mistaken, companies like Tom Tom require local map and voice data, which takes up gigabytes of space, and I just dont see the app store allowing a single app to hog up that much bandwidth from its servers.

I could be wrong, but it looks like to me anytime an app is updated, you redownload and install the whole thing all over again.

I hope that TomTom or anyone else that requires a local map does not include the map data with the initial purchase (or upgrades) of the app but allows you to download only the maps you need. I live in California and seldom travel out of state (maybe to Las Vegas). It would be nice to only download the maps I need. If I travel to New York then maybe I could do a temp download of New York for that short amount of time. With a WiFi Connection it should not take that long to download maps as needed (I don't mean in real time like Google Maps).

 

[pj rage]

There is a 2gig application limit.

Both Tom Tom and Telenav have publically stated they are working on iPhone products.

FWIW my magellan maps for my 500 series take up like ~1.5gig for the whole country - they fit onto a formatted 2gig card (which means less than 2gig actually available) with a little space left. So it's possible to get an app in the store that can do the whole country locally. Come to think of it, this also includes the database of store/restaurants/gas stations/etc that comes with it, so if they don't end up including that (or grab those on the fly), it could be even less space. It would be cool with me if they released a 2gb app for turn by turn, though. I'll put it on my phone as I know alot of others would. But they should also leave another "on-the-fly" option for people who don't want to do that.

Relating to the "when," I could have sworn I heard something about the end of august. Either to expect an announcement or a release by then? And I think this was for telenav, which is the only company I've heard of that is planning an app store release "for sure." The last I've heard from tom-tom is that they had it working on the iphone, but there were some issues that they didn't disclose but assured weren't due to the app store restrictions of voice prompted navigation.

 

[Ozzhead]

I think it is really possible.. Look there 2 apps at the appstore need built in. Theres a speed tracker and a cumpas already in the store. Now all we need is some kind of software with maps and voices and i can see it wokring fine.

Also far as being to big, they can just make 2.. one for east or west. It will still be a great hit.

 

[lordhamster]

I need North American and Europe maps on the unit. If I can do that, then I'll be able to get rid of my Nuvi 760

 

[Jeremy1026]

I thought I'd pop back in here to note a few things that I've noticed lately:

-Since 2.0.1, my gps has been locating me at least twice as fast, and seems to be more accurate and tracks a little smoother too. There's still a little room for improvement, but it seems much better.

-I never tried before 2.0.1, so I don't know if it's a new feature, but I tried locating myself while my phone said "No Service," and it WAS able to locate me, but, of course, it was not able to load the map data.

-I tried to further support the above by putting the phone into airplane mode and trying to locate me, but this did NOT work, it gave me a gray dot instead of blue and was not updating the position on the blank grid as it was with "No Service." While in airplane mode, it did appear to be tracking me for like 10 seconds, but then it cut to the gray dot. Perhaps the "No Service" tracking would have eventually cut out too, I don't know, but I did leave it tracking with "No Service" for several minutes and it didn't gray out, so ? By the time I got out of Airplane mode, I was back in service, so I couldn't test further.

I'm not sure if it TRULY had no service, or if it just said that but it was a bug and it actually had service. Considering it said No Service for quite a bit of time and was definitely not loading any map data, I think it really did have no service. This would indicate to me that it should be possible to locate yourself without having service, which will make turn-by-turn apps that much better, assuming they can cache an area of map for the dead zone you are in, or for an area you plan to visit.

If you have no CELL service you can still get your GPS location, just no maps will download and show you where you are. But with Airplane Mode on ALL the receivers in your device are turned off (cell, gps, bluetooth, wifi) and thats why it was unable to locate you in Airplane Mode. Your signal strength (as shown in the top left corner of the device) has no role in whether or not the GPS will be able to find your current location.

 

[Deguello]

I need North American and Europe maps on the unit. If I can do that, then I'll be able to get rid of my Nuvi 760

The screen on my 760 is almost as big as the entire iPhone. I'm not sure I'd be willing to give that up plus having to mount it somewhere easily viewable while driving in exchange for managing one fewer item, particularly one that works as well as the 760.

Still, if the price of the app and the updated maps is reasonable, and they include Karen's "voice," it would be worth a look to see what the developers can do.

 

[lordhamster]

The screen on my 760 is almost as big as the entire iPhone. I'm not sure I'd be willing to give that up plus having to mount it somewhere easily viewable while driving in exchange for managing one fewer item, particularly one that works as well as the 760.

Still, if the price of the app and the updated maps is reasonable, and they include Karen's "voice," it would be worth a look to see what the developers can do.

Sure it won't be as nice as the 760 to look at, but the compromise may be worth it. I travel internationally with checked baggage only. Anything I can leave behind would be good.

What would really sway me is if they would use the cellular radio to actually do some things that make sense.

For example, no need for a POI database, they could have the POI database be over the air. Saves space and your POIs are always up to date.

Real time traffic conditions and reporting (like the DASH not like FM traffic).

 

[pj rage]

If you have no CELL service you can still get your GPS location, just no maps will download and show you where you are. But with Airplane Mode on ALL the receivers in your device are turned off (cell, gps, bluetooth, wifi) and thats why it was unable to locate you in Airplane Mode. Your signal strength (as shown in the top left corner of the device) has no role in whether or not the GPS will be able to find your current location.

I think some AGPS implementations REQUIRE cell service in order to ever locate you. I wasn't sure how the AGPS was implemented on the iphone, but I'm glad to hear it doesn't require cell service. This means that nav apps can buffer/predownload/install maps and use the phone as a standalone navigation device independent of cell service.

 

[Jeremy1026]

I think some AGPS implementations REQUIRE cell service in order to ever locate you. I wasn't sure how the AGPS was implemented on the iphone, but I'm glad to hear it doesn't require cell service. This means that nav apps can buffer/predownload/install maps and use the phone as a standalone navigation device independent of cell service.

The "A" in AGPS for the iPhone is only used to pin down the location quicker. It will search for satellites as it searches for cell towers. If you are 3000 miles from the last place you had the GPS locate you it would take a while to find the proper satellites, so the iPhone will search for the satellites as it triangulates your position via cell towers. If it finds the cell towers before the satellites it tells it where to look for the satellites to get a proper lock.

 

[pj rage]

The "A" in AGPS for the iPhone is only used to pin down the location quicker. It will search for satellites as it searches for cell towers. If you are 3000 miles from the last place you had the GPS locate you it would take a while to find the proper satellites, so the iPhone will search for the satellites as it triangulates your position via cell towers. If it finds the cell towers before the satellites it tells it where to look for the satellites to get a proper lock.

I know what aGPS is, but I think some implementations require the cell network.

I got it from here: http://wmexperts.com/articles/gps_vs_agps_a_quick_tutorial.html

This story of aGPS so far seems fairly reasonable and straightforward, but alas it is not. See aGPS is not some monolithic, written-in-stone-standard. In fact, Qualcomm, who makes the most popular aGPS chips (called GPSOne) has four different possible configurations for aGPS. How aGPS is actually implemented on the device appears to be up to the device OEM/cellular carriers.

These four options are:

* Standalone - Your handset has no connection to the network, and uses only the GPS satellite signals it can currently receive to try and establish a location.
* MS Based - Your handset is connected to the network, and uses the GPS signals + a location signal from the network.
* MS Assisted - Your handset is connected to the network, uses GPS signals + a location signal then relays its 'fix' to the server, which then uses the signal strength from your phone to the network towers to further plot your position. You can still maintain voice communication in this scenario, but not 'Internet/Network service' ie Web Browser, IM, streaming TV etc..
* MS Assisted/Hybrid - Same as above, but network functionality remains. Normally only in areas with exceptional coverage.

Standalone mode is important. This means you do not need the carrier network at all to use GPS and usually you can install any GPS mapping software to boot. This is how the HTC Tilt and modern BlackBerries work and the Sprint Q9c (a review of which will be posted on WMExperts next week). Here there is virtually no difference between a standalone SiRFIII GPS system and a standalone (aka “autonomous”). The fact that the Sprint Q9c operates in standalone should be a sign of how Sprint plans to adopt aGPS systems in their Windows Mobile lineup (read here and here regarding possible updates for GPS for the Mogul and Touch). Interestingly, someone came up with a hack to enable the assistance servers for the Q9c to give all the benefits of a true aGPS system.

So which configuration of aGPS is important to how you can utilize the service. If it 100% relies on assistance-servers, then using it off-network is not an option, which may be the case with the BlackBerry 8830 (Sprint Worldphone):

Q – Does GPS work internationally?
A – No, the GPS chipset on the 8830 is disabled when the device is in GSM/GPRS mode due to Qualcomm requirement.

I was under the impression after reading that, that if your chip doesn't have standalone mode, or the carrier does not implement it as a possibility, your device would need the cell network also. But I suppose I could have misinterpreted what he said too.

 

[Geckotek]

I know what aGPS is, but I think some implementations require the cell network.

I got it from here: http://wmexperts.com/articles/gps_vs_agps_a_quick_tutorial.html


I was under the impression after reading that, that if your chip doesn't have standalone mode, or the carrier does not implement it as a possibility, your device would need the cell network also. But I suppose I could have misinterpreted what he said too.

You are correct, but it appears that Apple's implementation is along the lines of the standalone and hybrid configurations.

This finally explains a lot of what I've been trying to say. AGPS is not exactly this superior form of GPS that everyone makes it out to be. It depends on the chipset, configuration, and implementation of the carrier. (And it has evolved over time.) Although I'm guessing Apple has made all those decisions here and cut the carrier out of the equation.