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Downsides of Touch Bar??
- Thread starter hoodafoo
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I find the Touch Bar much more convenient for this purpose. Sliding controls are much more useful than discrete keys.
Not true.
The price of the first 13" TB MBP was US$1799, the price of the first 15" TB was US$2399. These prices are identical to the models they replaced (higher-end 13" MBP and 15" with discrete graphics). Apple dropped the cheaper 15" with the integrated graphics and replaced the base 13" MBP with the two-port model. And now with the M1 machines we again have the entry-level MBP 13" with the Touch Bar — for the same price this model has been selling in the last 10 years or so.
Yeah, it's quite funny that Xcode uses Fn-keys for debugging, even though this violates macOS human interface guidelines. Well, I am a developer to and I have absolutely no use for function keys. They simply do not belong on a Mac.
You can press a single button and go from 70% volume to 30% volume in an instant? I kind of agree that buttons are better if you only care about modifying the volume by a single tick. When I change the volume though I rarely work with ticks. Slider is more convenient for me.
Haven't had this problems in years. Yeah, I remember some Touch Bar freezes. Back in 2016. You are mentioning issues that have long been fixed.
The downsides for me is:
- I’ve been so used to physical function keys there for a long time, that it just doesn’t feel right
- I find myself accidentally hitting something not he touchbar like the Siri button to mute...and I couldv’ve sworn that I didn’t touch it (though of course there must’ve been some sort of touch).
- I’ve been so used to physical function keys there for a long time, that it just doesn’t feel right
- I find myself accidentally hitting something not he touchbar like the Siri button to mute...and I couldv’ve sworn that I didn’t touch it (though of course there must’ve been some sort of touch).
This part was a common problem with the first-gen Touch Bar. In newer models the bar is slightly elevated, with more spacing and separate escape and power key. I was regularly triggering accidental touches on my 2016 model which was annoying, but nothing like that on the 16" or the M1.
As someone who does use the Touch Bar... but doesn't mind seeing it go, here's the downsides for me:
1. It adds build cost for little benefit. Apple could probably shave off $200-$300 off the MSRP if the Touch Bar was nonexistent and IMO it just doesn't add $200-$300 worth of aded value.
2. The app support is sparse. For me, this is a key drawback. The Touch Bar has a lot of potential but it spends most of its time as a wasted black screen. Apple marketed the Touch Bar as a "Pro" tool for artist and developers. In reality, most of the "Pro" software has no Touch Bar support. For the programs that do have Touch Bar support, the quick actions shown on the Touch Bar are sometimes easier or just as easy to access on the main screen. In other cases, the Touch Bar tools just don't offer the level of precision that the good old mouse curser can.
3. It can be buggy at times. Most of the time it works great but there are times when it locks up, behaves jittery or just goes blank.
As someone who never really used the function keys, I was excited when the Touch Bar came and offered something new to fill that space. The sad thing is, the Touch Bar could have been much cooler if Apple invested more time and development funds. I think plugins like Better Touch Tools really shows how good the Touch Bar can be. The ability to create custom buttons to use in any program would have been a great tool to have built in. Alternatively, they could have put the dock on the Touch Bar and opened up more screen real estate.
The one thing I will miss is having the word autofill when typing.
1. It adds build cost for little benefit. Apple could probably shave off $200-$300 off the MSRP if the Touch Bar was nonexistent and IMO it just doesn't add $200-$300 worth of aded value.
2. The app support is sparse. For me, this is a key drawback. The Touch Bar has a lot of potential but it spends most of its time as a wasted black screen. Apple marketed the Touch Bar as a "Pro" tool for artist and developers. In reality, most of the "Pro" software has no Touch Bar support. For the programs that do have Touch Bar support, the quick actions shown on the Touch Bar are sometimes easier or just as easy to access on the main screen. In other cases, the Touch Bar tools just don't offer the level of precision that the good old mouse curser can.
3. It can be buggy at times. Most of the time it works great but there are times when it locks up, behaves jittery or just goes blank.
As someone who never really used the function keys, I was excited when the Touch Bar came and offered something new to fill that space. The sad thing is, the Touch Bar could have been much cooler if Apple invested more time and development funds. I think plugins like Better Touch Tools really shows how good the Touch Bar can be. The ability to create custom buttons to use in any program would have been a great tool to have built in. Alternatively, they could have put the dock on the Touch Bar and opened up more screen real estate.
The one thing I will miss is having the word autofill when typing.
I have seen this argument mentioned a lot, so a brief comment: Touch Bar did not increase the price of the MBP and if Apple decides to remove it, they are unlikely to lower the prices. Case in point: the new M1 13" MBP also got the Touch Bar treatment, without changing the price from it's predecessor. If Apple does what you suggest, and drops the Touch Bar while reducing the price, this will put the MacBook Air in an awkward position.
In almost a year w/ my 16" MBP, I've never used it. I use a 32" monitor and standalone keyboard and mouse as my primary w/ the laptop open off to the side for a second screen when needed, so it's just inaccessible. I don't mind that it's there, but would rather have saved a few bucks.
I have no specific downsides to the touch bar but no real upsides either.
I did use it for a few things but in reality, the time used wasn't really justifying it being there.
It seemed to me that Apple really directed it more at developers and said 'hey, here is a thing you can use to help it connect to your app and do things, go ahead and make something of it', and they didn't, not really. There were some really useful implementations of what the bar could add to user experience but overall it was lacking.
I did use it for a few things but in reality, the time used wasn't really justifying it being there.
It seemed to me that Apple really directed it more at developers and said 'hey, here is a thing you can use to help it connect to your app and do things, go ahead and make something of it', and they didn't, not really. There were some really useful implementations of what the bar could add to user experience but overall it was lacking.
Convenient? Ok, that's subjective. I find F-keys more convenient. Also subjective.
But more useful? How?
99.99% of things you do with touch bar, you can do with kb shortcuts. And those are way faster than touch bar.
In an instant? Of course not. You can't do that in an instant on touch bar as well.
But I can press a key and hold it, without looking at it, or looking for it. You can't do that on a touch bar. Too slow, too clunky, too gimmicky.
We can agree to disagree. But if Apple does remove touch bar, and they probably will, they will remove it because it was so useful? Because people loved it?
Even Apple didn't do anything to touch bar in 5 years. Nothing. Only change was bringing back esc key. That was a great change I will admit. Now they will remove entire touch bar and bring back f-keys. Now that is an excellent change
Starting price for 13" MBP 2015 was 1299$. LINK
Starting price for 13" MBP with touchbar was 1799$. LINK
So no change in price?
Touch Bar was only introduced on the higher-tier 13” which already was $1799. They didn’t increase the price (to be fair, they did reduce the SSS size which is essentially a hidden price increase). The cheaper entry-level 13” was replaced by the two-port model. Finally, the M1 MBP brought the Touch Bar to the s try level without increasing the price.
Obviously, Touch Bar is more expensive to make than function keys. But it’s introduction didn’t change anything about existing Mac prices. People who say “drop the Touch Bar and reduce the price” essentially are saying just “reduce the price”. Apple is not going to reduce the price. If they decide that Touch Bar is a failed experiment and remove it from the future Macs, prices won’t change much.
By the way, I don’t believe the rumour that Touch Bar is supposed to be discontinued. If it were, why would they bother adding it to the M1 MBP?
Between abandonment of touch bar and the abandonment of Intel, I think their is a lot of room to either lower the cost or provide upgraded features elsewhere for the same price. In fact, it may do both.
With veterans discount my MacBook Pro 16 GB memory and 256 SSD an AppleCare+, and 7% tax, was $1702.00, $68 more than the MacBook Air with 512 Gb SSD 16 Gb memory.
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Apple never developed the Touchbar to what it could have been, and, consequently, it's often as much as an annoyance as it is a benefit for many users (I like some aspects of it, but I hate others...such as the location of it). Strangely, it sounds like it may be discontinued, which boggles my mind because they spent all of this time and energy getting it to be compatible with the first generation of Apple Silicon Macs...if they were going to kill it, why wouldn't they do it with Apple Silicon?
I don't even see prices in either link. A search of 13" '15 v '16 in everymac reveals a starting price discrepancy entirely explained by taking away the horrid, claustrophobic 128GB build.
Again, not true. 256GB version with 8GB of ram costed 1499$ in 2015.
1799$ for Touch Bar 256GB version in 2016. You can easily check original prices on everymac.com
We can agree on that one. I would be shocked if they actually reduce price.
But honestly, if I were to purchase a new MBP, I would pay extra just to get rid of touch bar.
I use the Touch Bar everyday countless times. I like the contextual nature of the Touch Bar that changes based on the selected / active program. I miss it while travelling when I carry my MacBook Air which doesn’t have it.
It just depends on personal preference.
It just depends on personal preference.
There two basic "standard" 13" MBP models in 2015
MF839LL/A (dual-core i5-5257U, 128GB SSD) - $1299
MF841LL/A (dual-core i5-5287U, 512GB SSD) - $1799
The 256GB version you talk about is a CTO of the entry-level model (same entry-level CPU, upgraded SSD).
In 2016, Apple has replaced the lower-end model with a two-port MBP that had a 15W CPU, no Touch Bar and one fan, while replacing the higher-end model with one that had four ports, a 28W CPU, faster RAM, T1 chip and a Touch Bar. At the same time, they have reduced the SSD size on that model from 512GB to 256GB. Prices for both models didn't change. Now, you might argue that the SSD cut was a hidden price increase to offset the Touch Bar costs, but the Touch Bar is not the only thing that has changed between these iterations. You could also pin this hidden price increase on the T1 chip, thunderbolt controllers, redesigned thermal management or just on Apple wanting to increase their margins.
BTW, what is also noteworthy is that the $1799 model got quad-core treatment in 2018 (and subsequently Ice Lake), where the $1299 model had to wait a year longer for quad core and was stuck with Coffee Lake. Another indication that these were completely different Mac models, with different set of features or priorities. And the price didn't change either, no matter how differentiated they became.
This we can absolutely agree upon.
Opinion: The problem with Apple reportedly killing the MacBook Pro Touch Bar - 9to5Mac
Ming-Chi Kuo, a reliable supply chain analyst for TF International Securities, predicts a bold new class of MacBook Pros this...
9to5mac.com
wow, you REALLY know your product line!
It's just so interesting to me that those who hate the Touch Bar, REALLY hate it with all their guts! I wonder if it's an age thing where an old dog can't learn new tricks and the younger gen can more easily adapt and embrace new stuff
It's an unfortunate byproduct of sending way too much time on forums. Also, I used to oversee the IT department of a largish research unit, which included purchase strategies, so I had to have an overview what's there on the market. Not to mention that everymac and wikipedia are two great resources to look up historical Mac specs and prices.
Personally, I am rather ambivalent. I don't see any point in having function keys — macOS delegates them to multimedia controls and apps that use them do so in violation of Mac UI guidelines, but the Touch Bar is not the holy grail either. Personally, do I prefer the Touch Bar ever so slightly, but I won't go storm Tim Cook's office if they decide to remove it.
But yeah, I get your point. If people don't like something, they go to great length to find arguments to corroborate their point of view, even if the arguments end up being somewhat stretched. I think that a good solution to this conundrum is simply accept that some things are a matter of taste, and we all know that those can't be rationalized
After hearing people's main complaint about the TB, I think Apple needs to double down and add Haptic Touch to it as well as tweak the UI to temporarily superimpose what's being pressed (touched) onto the main user screen so that people can't complain that their fingers accidentally traversed TWO rows of keys and "accidentally" triggered a function they didn't mean to 😁Personally, I am rather ambivalent. I don't see any point in having function keys — macOS delegates them to multimedia controls and apps that use them do so in violation of Mac UI guidelines, but the Touch Bar is not the holy grail either. Personally, do I prefer the Touch Bar ever so slightly, but I won't go storm Tim Cook's office if they decide to remove it.
But yeah, I get your point. If people don't like something, they go to great length to find arguments to corroborate their point of view, even if the arguments end up being somewhat stretched. I think that a good solution to this conundrum is simply accept that some things are a matter of taste, and we all know that those can't be rationalized
I love the Touch Bar. It's not perfect and might not be for typing pro users. There is many things to improve for better usage. The native customisation is ridiculous. Many things I though it could handle for sure are missing, or I just don't know how to use them (such as using for alerts or emojis on all apps). I rarely use any function keys beside volume (and this works imo much much more quicker with just one touch and slide).
So why do I love it?
1. I use it for picture editing (and video editing in the near future) and real estate at my screen is expensive. I love that I can have stuff like sliders, colours, brushes out of the main screen. I haven't used video editing with my Mac yet, but I have an suspicion that timeline will be in the Toch Bar - that would be so cool.
2. As you can guess Im not a native English speaker. So, I rely on text corrections. With the touch bar I see the different word recommendations while I type. Oh, and there is the emoji button most of the time 😄.
3. The usage for instructions such as Touch ID prompt is imo great. I see clearly when the system needs my password /fingerprint for something. This is maybe my favourite thing about the Touch Bar. I hope more similar usage of the screen.
Do I rest my fingers on top of the Touch Bar while I type - no, but I can see it a problem if you are custom to do so. Do I have problems touching the right button - no, it would be nice if the spacing could be adjusted. Do I miss a haptic feedback - no, my iPad does not have a haptic feedback and I don't know if I wanted to.
Maybe the bottom line for my opinions comes from my extensive usage of iPad and the fact that I keep screen estate in great value. I also like to keep screen distractions at my main screen to the minimal.
So why do I love it?
1. I use it for picture editing (and video editing in the near future) and real estate at my screen is expensive. I love that I can have stuff like sliders, colours, brushes out of the main screen. I haven't used video editing with my Mac yet, but I have an suspicion that timeline will be in the Toch Bar - that would be so cool.
2. As you can guess Im not a native English speaker. So, I rely on text corrections. With the touch bar I see the different word recommendations while I type. Oh, and there is the emoji button most of the time 😄.
3. The usage for instructions such as Touch ID prompt is imo great. I see clearly when the system needs my password /fingerprint for something. This is maybe my favourite thing about the Touch Bar. I hope more similar usage of the screen.
Do I rest my fingers on top of the Touch Bar while I type - no, but I can see it a problem if you are custom to do so. Do I have problems touching the right button - no, it would be nice if the spacing could be adjusted. Do I miss a haptic feedback - no, my iPad does not have a haptic feedback and I don't know if I wanted to.
Maybe the bottom line for my opinions comes from my extensive usage of iPad and the fact that I keep screen estate in great value. I also like to keep screen distractions at my main screen to the minimal.
Apple used 28W chips in 2015 version. And like you said it yourself, 2 TB3 port in 2016 is a gimped version with slower CPU and GPU. Not comparable at all with 2015 MBP. Also, Apple said that version replaces Macbook Air themselves.
So I still don't understand why you use that model as reference?
MBP 13 with 28W CPU from 2015 vs MBP 28W from 2016 = 200$ price increase.
You can argue this all you want, but it's plain and clear.
True, they have significantly changed 13" MBP line in 2016 (to everyone's confusion). And you are not wrong, if you wanted a 30W CPU, you had to pay more. Still... what does it have to do with the Touch Bar? What Apple did was put a weaker CPU in the base model (without changing the price) and putting the Touch Bar (+other things) in the higher-end model, again, without changing the price. The price didn't change. What changed is what you are getting for it.
To put this in a different perspective, imagine that Touch Bar never happened. The 28W 2016 version would still start at $1799 — because that's how Apple has been setting its pricing tiers for years.
So while I kind of agree with your that 2016 13" lineup can be considered a hidden price increase (weaker CPUs, less SSD storage), I don't see how you can claim that it's all because of the Touch Bar. There are a lot of factors. CPU pricing, increased display panel cost, more expensive RAM, T1 chip, thunderbolt controllers... tons of components that affect Apple ability to manufacture these things as well as their product margins.
Year prior to TB versions of MBP, you could get 28W CPU for 200$ less. True or false?