Dual-Sided Touch Panels for iPhones, MacBooks, Tablets?

[Tosser]

A post worthy of your user name.

Ah, yes, gildred. Be proud, you managed to reach kinder garden levels there

 

[sterlingindigo]

Since when? Have you even thought about _why_ it's called "touch typists" and what that entails?

he he, as opposed to thinking the characters, which I'm sure there's a patent pending.

 

[cthomet]

ya theres no way they will have a stylus with it. jobs hates the lil things

 

[Tosser]

What part of "touch typist" doesn't go well with "touch screen"? Being able to physically feel the keys can be useful sometimes, but it's really not necessary.

Speaking like someone who don't actually type, but go the hunt-and-peck route.

There may be a learning curve but it's not that hard at all to type without the physical feedback of a physical keyboard.

Wow! What a statement! You're telling me you can actually feel without physical feedback – that it's a "learning curve" no less. Good job, son.

Unless you look, without any physical feedback, your hands will drift. Look at your F and J-keys, and you'll notice there are small bumbs on them. They're there so touch typists can feel their way to correct placement _without_ looking.

It's no different from switching from a fretted guitar to a fretless guitar. Yes, it's a little harder, but when you get used to it, you have much more power over what you're doing than before.

Stupid example, as you still have physical feedback in that example.

A while back, someone said that typing without physical feedback is difficult, and to try typing on a flat desk to see how hard and unnatural it is. I tried it. It was easy. Felt more natural than a physical keyboard. I know where the keys are. For any touch typist, it'll take maybe a week at most to get used to the flat surface.

You claim you tried it? So what did you do? Draw a keyboard, perhaps? How do you know you didn't miss any keys or made a huge number of typos? "It's easy", lol. Did you ever try one of those laser-"keyboards"? Come back when you have typed a letter blindfolded on one of those.

In your own words: what a load of BS. There'll still be a keyboard. The method of entering letters won't go away. The only difference is that you'll be able to do much more than that. Imagine being able to move the mouse without taking your fingers away from the keyboard. You'll still have the keyboard. You'll just have a whole world of other input options open to you along *with* the keyboard.

It's still BS, because in reality it will be a huge touch pad, for want of a better term: Flat, sleek and not a keyboard at all, even if it will resemble one (being a screen so it can _show_ the letters and all).

Why would you respond to a post if you don't understand it?

The point isn't that you'd use something other than letters, obviously.

The point is that the best way to use a multi-touch surface to enter letters is yet to be discovered.

LOL, ah yes, and you still don't think it's BS?

"After thousands of years of basing communication on words and letters, Apple introduces a computer without a keyboard. The fanboys claim it's a hit, because as they say "we just have to find another way of communicating. Thank god for the foresight of Steve," they chant."[/sarcasm]

You have got to be kidding me.

It's probably not to just display a keyboard on the surface, for various reasons. But the variety of gestures that you can make on a surface of this size is probably large enough to compensate for the lack of tactile feedback.

Well, if you were _only_ to communicate in traditional chinese, I think I could agree a little with you. But since you're writing here, I think it's safe to say you're not.

None of the tablet PCs have a multi-touch screen... why would you bring those up? Do you know what multi-touch is? Did you hear that Apple might make a phone?

Are you Captain Slow, there or what? I brought up tablets, because even though they don't have "Multi touch", they don't have a keyboard, and as such, this doesn't either. But that's right, you base your horrendously stupid BS on the "potential" multitouch has, that we "merely have to invent another way of communicating".

As I said: What a load of BS. Stop watching Startrek.

 

[Tosser]

he he, as opposed to thinking the characters, which I'm sure there's a patent pending.

Oh, yeah, there it was!

 

[erd787]

Just pointing out manners that most learn in 2nd grade.
If you want to be taken seriously, avoid ad hominem labels like 'sheep' and 'fanboy' when introducing yourself.

Yeah it's all good man. I appreciate the lesson in manners, but it was probably my first and last post... usually I have better things to do than comment like this on blogs--this was just one of the first examples I've seen where the criticism I mentioned seemed justified. There's absolutely no reason in my opinion that this idea should be rated so highly.

 

[eliotschreiner]

So what might it be called? MacBook Touch? Mac Touch?

 

[Tosser]

Yeah it's all good man. I appreciate the lesson in manners, but it was probably my first and last post... usually I have better things to do than comment like this on blogs--this was just one of the first examples I've seen where the criticism I mentioned seemed justified. There's absolutely no reason in my opinion that this idea should be rated so highly.

I'm totally with you. And it was correct. Notice how people are such big fanboys around here, that they will defend obscure patents, and claim they're good – "all we have to do is invent a new way of communicating instead of using letters (and therefore words)."

 

[deputy_doofy]

I think the idea is excellent (in theory). I realize that theory ≠ practice, but I'd love to see something like that. After using my friend's iPhone for a short time, I could definitely see myself using a touch-keyboard-pad-screen device.

 

[apple101]

Their new MacBook is just going to be called: TOUCHBook

 

[cthomet]

Their new MacBook is just going to be called: TOUCHBook

who knows if it will become a product, but if it did it would be macbook touch. think about it. macbook air. macbook. macbook pro.

 

[Niiro13]

Wash your hands?

Washing your hands isn't patented.

He said patented.

Hmm...can I patent washing hands? XD

 

[wesk702]

would love to see this on a phone

 

[MattInOz]

Ok so it was only published a few days ago, but the priority date is Sept2006.

Is this the iPhone Steve rejected?
Or even just an idea that cropped up during round 2 redesign.

Although it could be a great an idea on MacBook air with a glass trackpad so you can see part of the screen when closed.

Ever time I see a patent application from Apple an we haven't seen a product yet, I have to remind myself not likely to happen.

 

[michelepri]

Just patents. We don't see most of this stuff. It's just like artist fantasy. And if they ever come up with those things it will be probably for the next generation to have.

 

[jhesse]

TV news portrays artist concept as fact

Good catch he says.
Anyways here is an artist's concept on what an iphone nano might look like based on this new patent.......awesomeness! :

Ugh. ABC New's "TechBytes" just (6 am Tuesday morning local TV newscast) ran this picture as imminent "No word on when it will be available" Apple product...

 

[ibwb]

It's still BS, because in reality it will be a huge touch pad, for want of a better term: Flat, sleek and not a keyboard at all, even if it will resemble one (being a screen so it can _show_ the letters and all).

"After thousands of years of basing communication on words and letters, Apple introduces a computer without a keyboard. The fanboys claim it's a hit, because as they say "we just have to find another way of communicating. Thank god for the foresight of Steve," they chant."[/sarcasm]

You have got to be kidding me.

Well, if you were _only_ to communicate in traditional chinese, I think I could agree a little with you. But since you're writing here, I think it's safe to say you're not.

Are you Captain Slow, there or what? I brought up tablets, because even though they don't have "Multi touch", they don't have a keyboard, and as such, this doesn't either. But that's right, you base your horrendously stupid BS on the "potential" multitouch has, that we "merely have to invent another way of communicating".

As I said: What a load of BS. Stop watching Startrek.

I don't know who you're quoting, but I never said anything about inventing another way of communicating. This idea that you'd do something other than entering letters was invented out of whole cloth, by you, and exists only in your mind. So you can stop arguing with it. The grownups here are talking about the METHOD of entering LETTERS, which is a different notion from whether there is a keyboard. Ever seen Dasher? That's a way of entering letters without a keyboard. Maybe you didn't know this, but people actually invented letters long before they invented keyboards.

Back to the idea of typing, and those laser keyboards you bring up. We've seen that there is clearly a problem with emulating a keyboard on a touch surface by displaying virtual "keys" and registering touches on those keys as a "keypress". But this is not the only way to do it. For instance, suppose we define a "home" position as placing all ten fingers on the surface (and stationary). Maybe for "A", you stroke your left index finger up a little, then back into the home position; for "B" you do the same with the right, for "C" you stroke your left index down, "D" is right index down, "E" is left index right, "F" is right index left. That's six letters on two fingers. The middle finger can move easily up and down only, so you have four letters there. You could move the index and middle fingers up or down together for four more letters. Oops, I forgot that you could move your right and left index fingers up, down, or inward together, so that's three more. So that's, what, thirteen letters using four fingers? Not bad so far. Of course you couldn't use this on a touch pad like most current tablets, that can only detect one touch at a time.

You are just thinking small. I'm sure this example isn't the best solution, and to find the best solution you'd want to do lots of R&D. But your argument seems to be that a keyboard is the best possible way of entering letters, and I find that less than compelling.

 

[Tosser]

I don't know who you're quoting, but I never said anything about inventing another way of communicating.

LOL, you don't know who I am quoting, even though you can read the name of the person I quoted? Nice effort at playing dumb.

What the hell do you call these (bold=my emphasis):

I think we can all assume that Apple is hard at work on a replacement for the physical keyboard.

Think about it -- on a multi-touch surface of this size, you could really express way more information with your hands than you can with a keyboard. In other words, the overall bandwidth is potentially greater. It should be possible to use this in a way that improves on a physical keyboard, if you're willing to branch out a little beyond the touchscreen keyboard metaphor.

It's true that people have tried to replace the keyboard before and met with limited success, but it's usually been because the devices have a lower inherent bandwidth. Consider the stylus method of the early Palms, or the chorded keyboards limited to 20 buttons or so -- low bandwidth. Ten fingers on a multi-touch surface could do much better than that, though it would take years of R&D to perfect it.

But, no, things like that was never said, right?

This idea that you'd do something other than entering letters was invented out of whole cloth, by you, and exists only in your mind. So you can stop arguing with it.

Really? How about these:

Take a look at these examples and tell me, they're not talking about typing – however, even without that, you guys are still creaming your pants over something you yourself admit will "only" need a completely new way of communication.

What part of "touch typist" doesn't go well with "touch screen"? Being able to physically feel the keys can be useful sometimes, but it's really not necessary. There may be a learning curve but it's not that hard at all to type without the physical feedback of a physical keyboard. It's no different from switching from a fretted guitar to a fretless guitar. Yes, it's a little harder, but when you get used to it, you have much more power over what you're doing than before.

A while back, someone said that typing without physical feedback is difficult, and to try typing on a flat desk to see how hard and unnatural it is. I tried it. It was easy. Felt more natural than a physical keyboard. I know where the keys are. For any touch typist, it'll take maybe a week at most to get used to the flat surface.


In your own words: what a load of BS. There'll still be a keyboard. The method of entering letters won't go away. The only difference is that you'll be able to do much more than that. Imagine being able to move the mouse without taking your fingers away from the keyboard. You'll still have the keyboard. You'll just have a whole world of other input options open to you along *with* the keyboard.

And this one, from your own hand, nonetheless - even though you now claim differently (bold=my emphasis):

Why would you respond to a post if you don't understand it?

The point isn't that you'd use something other than letters, obviously. The point is that the best way to use a multi-touch surface to enter letters is yet to be discovered. It's probably not to just display a keyboard on the surface, for various reasons. But the variety of gestures that you can make on a surface of this size is probably large enough to compensate for the lack of tactile feedback.

Still not sure, what you're saying or not saying?

The grownups here are talking about the METHOD of entering LETTERS, which is a different notion from whether there is a keyboard.

Really? All I see are immature technogeeks creaming their pants because it would be so great (you think) if we could "touch type" with gestures instead of spelling.

Ever seen Dasher? That's a way of entering letters without a keyboard. Maybe you didn't know this, but people actually invented letters long before they invented keyboards.

Excuse me, but people here are thinking that gestures should be used instead of letters (go read the the thread, there are numerous idiotic posts like that – you yourself even made a couple of those posts).

Back to the idea of typing, and those laser keyboards you bring up. We've seen that there is clearly a problem with emulating a keyboard on a touch surface by displaying virtual "keys" and registering touches on those keys as a "keypress". But this is not the only way to do it. For instance, suppose we define a "home" position as placing all ten fingers on the surface (and stationary). Maybe for "A", you stroke your left index finger up a little, then back into the home position; for "B" you do the same with the right, for "C" you stroke your left index down, "D" is right index down, "E" is left index right, "F" is right index left. That's six letters on two fingers. The middle finger can move easily up and down only, so you have four letters there. You could move the index and middle fingers up or down together for four more letters. Oops, I forgot that you could move your right and left index fingers up, down, or inward together, so that's three more. So that's, what, thirteen letters using four fingers? Not bad so far. Of course you couldn't use this on a touch pad like most current tablets, that can only detect one touch at a time.

Ah, yes. And how fast do you figure you'd be able to do that? Come now, how about introducing some reality in those wet technodreams of yours?

You are just thinking small.

Ah, yes, I see your point. Just because I don't go "Excellent patent. Now all we have to do is invent an entirely different method of input to make it work," doesn't mean I'm thinking small. In this case it simply means I'm being realistic.

I'm sure this example isn't the best solution, and to find the best solution you'd want to do lots of R&D.

Again you go "we just have to invent a completely new method, then this will be better than a keyboard with tactile feedback". As I said, perhaps you should stop watching Startrek, or whatever unrealistic sci-fi show you're watching.

But your argument seems to be that a keyboard is the best possible way of entering letters, and I find that less than compelling.

I don't give a rat's arse if you find my argument "less than compelling". Why should anyone care how you feel about that?. The reality is, your argument goes like this: "This is much better way of input even though I have no clue as to what that would be, because we have yet to discover a method that would work with this technology". So, excuse me for not falling heads over heels on a mere patent. Hell, it's not even a concept for what you think it can "if we just discover an entire new way of input".

 

[sleepingworker]

Ugh. ABC New's "TechBytes" just (6 am Tuesday morning local TV newscast) ran this picture as imminent "No word on when it will be available" Apple product...

Well, the only TV media to trust is Jon Stewart. And that iP rendering looks cheap. Whatever touch device comes out of that patent (when and if it comes out) will look much different than that ... I hope.

 

[ibwb]

LOL, you don't know who I am quoting, even though you can read the name of the person I quoted? Nice effort at playing dumb.

I'm referring to the statement you made, which you put in quote marks, as follows: "merely have to invent another way of communicating." You put it in quote marks, but I don't know who you are claming said it.

What the hell do you call these (bold=my emphasis):

But, no, things like that was never said, right?

I suppose I should clarify that the phrase "replacement for the physical keyboard" means "replacement for the device known as a keyboard that consists of some 100 mechanical buttons".

Really? How about these:

Take a look at these examples and tell me, they're not talking about typing – however, even without that, you guys are still creaming your pants over something you yourself admit will "only" need a completely new way of communication.

None of those seem to be talking about anything other than entering letters, but I guess the other posters should respond. I don't see anyone else taking them the way you're taking them, though. The idea of a "completely new way of communication" is not supported in the least by your clippings.

And this one, from your own hand, nonetheless - even though you now claim differently (bold=my emphasis):

Still not sure, what you're saying or not saying?

You've bolded the phrase "something other than letters, obviously" from a sentence that begins "The point isn't". So you're taking a sentence where I explicitly said one thing, and using it to claim that I said the opposite.

Really? All I see are immature technogeeks creaming their pants because it would be so great (you think) if we could "touch type" with gestures instead of spelling.

Excuse me, but people here are thinking that gestures should be used instead of letters (go read the the thread, there are numerous idiotic posts like that – you yourself even made a couple of those posts).

Gestures can be used to enter letters. That's all anyone ever suggested.

Ah, yes. And how fast do you figure you'd be able to do that? Come now, how about introducing some reality in those wet technodreams of yours?

How fast could I move my fingers? I don't know. I'm not seeing how an up-and-down motion on a surface is slower than an up-and-down motion in free space, but that remains to be seen. The point is that this patent strongly suggests that Apple has been exploring the possibilities in this realm, and I think there is a lot of potential. Nobody has developed a working product, but I think it's OK for us to discuss and consider possible future products. This is a rumor site after all. I won't get into whether some people here are more excited than they ought to be, as it's their prerogative to have fun.

One final note: though I've enjoyed the sophomoric insult game you brought into this thread, I've decided to drop it for the sake of the discussion, and I hope you'll do the same.

 

[sleepingworker]

Come now, how about introducing some reality in those wet technodreams of yours?

Have you ever heard of a man named Jeff Han? Maybe this video might interest you ... it certainly interested Apple. And Microsoft. And almost every other company in the PC world.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=884017118027634444

"wet technodreams"?!!! Uh, sounds like you've read too much Gibson but certainly Jeff Han deserves to have had them if anyone does. And if you hate the work he's done at NYU, you can always do and create something better.

 

[Tosser]

I'm referring to the statement you made, which you put in quote marks, as follows: "merely have to invent another way of communicating." You put it in quote marks, but I don't know who you are claming said it.

It's called "paraphrasing", and I have quoted you and others for saying the exact same thing, only with different words.

I suppose I should clarify that the phrase "replacement for the physical keyboard" means "replacement for the device known as a keyboard that consists of some 100 mechanical buttons".

Did you miss all the quotes from you and that other bloke, or do you want them again? You are obviously stating, that all we have to do is invent a different type of communicating, if this is to work, you're obviously stating, that you have no clue as to how that would work, or if it will work, yet you're adament it will be a much better way. You even claim that it's just a learning curve to touch type with out being able to feel your way, and other such nonsense claims.

None of those seem to be talking about anything other than entering letters, but I guess the other posters should respond. I don't see anyone else taking them the way you're taking them, though. The idea of a "completely new way of communication" is not supported in the least by your clippings.

Again? You have got to be kidding me! No wonder you think that this will be a great idea, when you're not even able to see what it is you two have written.

You've bolded the phrase "something other than letters, obviously" from a sentence that begins "The point isn't". So you're taking a sentence where I explicitly said one thing, and using it to claim that I said the opposite.

Actually I'm not. I'm not trying to say you're saying the opposite. I bolded that part because it would be ridiculous bolding everything in the entirety. If I wanted to misquote you, I propably wouldn't have quoted the whole thing, now would I?
No, you know what, you're merely trying to make it look like I'm misquoting you, so you can run away from what you said. But I guess that's how it is around here.




[quotes]Gestures can be used to enter letters. That's all anyone ever suggested.[/quotes]
Ah, yes. You guys see a touch pad and go cream you pants, thinking "wowza! this one's from Apple, that means our speculating about foregoing the (physical) keyboard must be a better way of typing and communicating in general". I'm sorry, but you have brought absolutely nothing to the table in ways of arguments. Nothing. All you have is some sci-fi dream that this would somehow be better, "if only" someone would sink enough R&D into it to make it a good way of inputting (letters or whatever else we have). Without even thinking, you're arguing this on the basis of a patent of a see
-through touch pad. Get real, will you.

How fast could I move my fingers? I don't know. I'm not seeing how an up-and-down motion on a surface is slower than an up-and-down motion in free space, but that remains to be seen.

Ah, yes, good point Especially since you'd not have to do anything more than going up and down to use the equivalent of the keys on your physical keyboard. Not to mention with the option and/or shift down. Just up and down. How many times up and down do you figure you'd have to go for each letter? Yes, the first ones are just a single up and/or down, but when you get to three or four up and/or downs, it's really much quicker to just press a key.
Oh, and I haven't even begun to talk about the memorising of those gestures.

The point is that this patent strongly suggests that Apple has been exploring the possibilities in this realm, and I think there is a lot of potential.

Yes, I am fully aware of the "potential" you see in this. In fact, you seem to think this not only has potential, but it is much better than we currently have, even though you have no clue how much feel matters when touch typing, nor any idea as to how anyone would implement, learn and use this sort of thing in the manner you hope it could b used. You even admit that these methods have to be discovered, all the while claiming these methods somehow would be better.

Nobody has developed a working product, but I think it's OK for us to discuss and consider possible future products.

First of all, of course noone has developed a working product, since noone has developed even a _concept_ of what you're suggesting. And all the while you may speculate all you want, hoping this will somehow be a holy grail for _everything_, just realise that others might pull you back to reality. Because a touch screen (can be) good for some things, doesn't mean it's the best, and the best for everything. Hell, where's those skip-buttons on the Touch and the iPhone, so you can use it in your pocket? Ah that's right, the same place as the iPod 3g: Nowhere.
Yet another example where touch isn't the holy grail.

This is a rumor site after all. I won't get into whether some people here are more excited than they ought to be, as it's their prerogative to have fun.

Ah, I see what you're doing. Since you weren't able to argue your case, you're now playing a victim, so you can get a carte blanche to not have anyone argue against what you say. It's classic rhetoric, but because of that, it's also sadly transparent.

One final note: though I've enjoyed the sophomoric insult game you brought into this thread, I've decided to drop it for the sake of the discussion, and I hope you'll do the same.

Haha, the "sophomoric insult game" _I_ brought into this? Still playing a victim, all the while knowing full well who "began that game", I see:

A post worthy of your user name.

Why would you respond to a post if you don't understand it?
[…]
Do you know what multi-touch is? Did you hear that Apple might make a phone?

Now, if you click those little arrows, you will be taken to the posts in question. Guess who thinks hes such a grown up, yet adores these types of "games".

I guess though it comes with the turf around these boards

 

[Tosser]

Have you ever heard of a man named Jeff Han? Maybe this video might interest you ... it certainly interested Apple. And Microsoft. And almost every other company in the PC world.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=884017118027634444

"wet technodreams"?!!! Uh, sounds like you've read too much Gibson but certainly Jeff Han deserves to have had them if anyone does. And if you hate the work he's done at NYU, you can always do and create something better.

Ooh, sorry to break it to you, but there's a difference in what JH is showing and then replacing the keyboard and letters with this sort of thing.
I guess it's the small and not so small things technodreamers seem to miss. Like how a multitouch pad, even as great as that is, cannot replace everything and be better at everything. It certainly has its uses, but good luck touch typing on the thing …

 

[7on]

People still plug external mice into laptops. Don't for one second think the trackpad has replaced the mouse. This will be just like the trackpad is for mice, this will be the keyboard on laptops.

I already plug in an external kb when I want to type. The MB keyboard is only good enough for casual use, something this touch keyboard would be equally good at.

 

[sleepingworker]

Ooh, sorry to break it to you, but there's a difference in what JH is showing and then replacing the keyboard and letters with this sort of thing.
I guess it's the small and not so small things technodreamers seem to miss. Like how a multitouch pad, even as great as that is, cannot replace everything and be better at everything. It certainly has its uses, but good luck touch typing on the thing …

Don't apologize You haven't broken anything. What is happening with multi-touch R&D is just amazing - especially for those of us who are in creative fields. And the posts of yours that I read seemed to dismiss it (and people like Jeff Han) as if the technology was just something on a bad episode of Star Trek.

If your only point is that you want to type on a physical keyboard - and that has been the reason you have typed what seems to be thousands of words on this thread, then use a keyboard for the rest of your life. However, at some point a younger generation will feel comfortable typing without the analogue input. I mean, does everyone hate typing on an iPhone? And if the answer if "yes" then the technology will continue to evolve and the all touch keyboard will eventually improve and become more intuitive.