DuckDuckGo Integrates Apple Maps for Map and Address Searches

[Abazigal]

Reap what benefits? DDG on its own isn't a formidable search engine compared to the rest of the playing field.

If Apple built their own proxy, they can gather more data points about their users in the way they want. 1st party user data is very important to future innovations. I'm not sure why you would even try to make a case that 3rd party data is more important than 1st party.

The money that google is paying Apple to keep google search as the default. The stronger DuckDuckGo is, the more leverage Apple has to negotiate for even higher prices down the road. It’s rumoured to be 9 billion today, it could be 10 or 12 next year.

It is therefore in Apple’s interest to prop up Google alternatives in a way that makes it believable that the company might switch away from Google after all. You lose that leverage the moment you have your own search engine, because why then wouldn’t you favour it over all other alternatives?

 

[ipponrg]

The money that google is paying Apple to keep google search as the default. The stronger DuckDuckGo is, the more leverage Apple has to negotiate for even higher prices down the road. It’s rumoured to be 9 billion today, it could be 10 or 12 next year.

It is therefore in Apple’s interest to prop up Google alternatives in a way that makes it believable that the company might switch away from Google after all. You lose that leverage the moment you have your own search engine, because why then wouldn’t you favour it over all other alternatives?

You should stop reiterating Ben’s Stratechery opinion and form your own.

 

[Abazigal]

You should stop reiterating Ben’s Stratechery opinion and form your own.

I reiterate it when it agrees with my own.

 

[ipponrg]

I reiterate it when it agrees with my own.

I’ll point out a few flaws in your own opinion.

1. I’m not arguing about Apple building their search engine from scratch. I am saying Apple can build their own DDG replacement if they wanted to, specifically the proxy part. If they did this, they will learn more about their users than ever before. Obviously there is the high risk that they build another Apple Maps and have to play catch-up.

2. The rhetoric to have Google pay more to be the search engine for Apple only helps with their revenue but makes their mission statement of being a privacy company hypocritical.

3. I doubt that Google considers DDG even remotely a threat. The DDG engine is crippled by itself without help from 3rd party engines. If Google did pay Apple more money, it’s because their budget allows it.

 

[Abazigal]

I’ll point out a few flaws in your own opinion.

1. I’m not arguing about Apple building their search engine from scratch. I am saying Apple can build their own DDG replacement if they wanted to. If they did this, they will learn more about their users than ever before. Obviously there is the high risk that they build another Apple Maps and have to play catch-up.

If Apple would ever build their own search engine (either from scratch or by acquiring DuckDuckGo), it would definitely occupy a default position like they did with maps and Siri. That’s at odds with being paid by Google and I think that right now, they are not willing to give up billions of dollars a year, plus the resources it takes to develop and maintain their own search engine (not forgetting that they won’t be able to monetise it via ads the way google can).

What even would Apple with all this user data anyways?

2. The rhetoric to have Google pay more to be the search engine for Apple only helps with their revenue but makes their mission statement of being a privacy company hypocritical.

Apple can’t be held responsible for the privacy stances of other companies like facebook or google. Rather, Apple is helping by offering users the option of choosing service providers based on their privacy preferences. Such as the ability to choose DuckDuckGo as their default search option.

Likewise, Apple isn’t on some crusade to excise Google from its platform. Rather, it simply wants to encourage these companies to treat user data with more respect, the same way it is.

I am not seeing the hypocrisy here.

3. I doubt that Google considers DDG even remotely a threat. The DDG engine is crippled by itself without help from 3rd party engines. If Google did pay Apple more money, it’s because their budget allows it.

It did not stop Apple from replacing google maps with maps. That’s probably what Google doesn’t want to risk - antagonising Apple to the point where Apple decides that maybe they should just make their own search engine.

 

[wigby]

Which would be a straw man argument. Apple taking money from google in no way contradicts its stance on privacy, because it isn’t out to excise companies like google or Facebook from its platform. Rather, the intent is for these companies to treat their users’ data and privacy with respect.

One way to give that respect is to ask customers if they want to share their data and then keep asking them over and over again, to borrow Steve Jobs' view on privacy and data collection.

That’s why Apple provides users the option of choosing service providers based on data collection and privacy protocols. For example, iPhone users are able to make DuckDuckGo their default search option on iOS devices.

If anything, Apple’s recent partnership with DuckDuckGo will simply strengthen the leverage Apple has at the bargaining table, when it comes to negotiating how much google has to pay to keep search as default. I estimate google may have to pay even more than what they are forking out now.

Apple has already been called upon by many to sever ties with these companies. These calls will only grow so long as Apple positions themselves as a security and privacy haven whether they act hypocritically or not.

I'm likening this to their environmental efforts. Apple touts the great things they do for the environment but they also produce massive amounts of industrial waste and pollution through their manufacturing partners. People called them out on this so they try to regulate their partners to the extent that they can. Apple will only continue to face criticism by some until they do one of two things: clean up their manufacturing efforts completely (impossible) or they can stop highlighting their environmental efforts. No one was asking them to create recycling robots or recycled aluminum iPads so those efforts do little to dissuade criticism. Apple mostly maintains their eco-friendly status by cutting ties with certain supply sources and manufacturers.

So it's up to Apple to decide how much they want to tout privacy as a human right because the more they do so, the more criticism they will face. At some point, their words will ring hollow no matter how much privacy they can truly offer over competing platforms.

 

[ipponrg]

What even would Apple with all this user data anyways?

They can profile the type of people that use the search on their devices. From there you can pivot your product (including services) offerings. This is just the basics of how companies use user data. How else does Google figure out what SaaS products to test or launch?

Likewise, Apple isn’t on some crusade to excise Google from its platform. Rather, it simply wants to encourage these companies to treat user data with more respect, the same way it is.

I am not seeing the hypocrisy here.

Apple is on a crusade to promote privacy. If they openly promote privacy but work with companies (I.e. accept money) that contradict their privacy mission statement, it says it there in their actions.

It did not stop Apple from replacing google maps with maps. That’s probably what Google doesn’t want to risk - antagonising Apple to the point where Apple decides that maybe they should just make their own search engine.

Many companies will pay for that spotlight. Whether it’s for TVs, set top devices, app stores, or OS level defaults, it’s all part of their marketing and promotion spend. This is normal.

If you work with Google product managers directly, you would know they welcome the competition. They are very confident in their products and don’t consider Apple much of a threat to anything. After all, their goals are quite different than Apple’s.