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'Dune Case' for PCs Copies Mac Pro's Cylindrical Design
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Apples and oranges... Anandtech is publishing core temps, Alex is citing heat spreader temp (Tcase vs Tjunction), or something more misleading. Big difference. What you see in the Anand's review is what you would expect from Apple engineering. The 130w CPU hits thermal limiting and throttles only under an artificial testing scenario, in Anand's words "I have to stress that I haven’t been able to get this to happen in any normal workload, only what’s effectively a power virus for the GPUs and something quite unrealistic for the CPUs."
Who knows what you're seeing in Alexander's "test", he won't say what prototype it's on, he has repeatedly avoided answering a straightforward question about whether he even has tested a prototype that is anything like the renderings - the only prototype pictures he's posted are from a completely different case with an ATX power supply. He claims on his site that the case will work with "any i7 CPU", while he has only tested his prototype with a 84w i7, yet the more powerful i7's are up to 140w, or 67% more thermal output. This was pointed out to him before and, as usual, he ignored it.
I've noticed a strong pattern in this thread of Alexander ignoring inconvenient facts and questions, and instead when anyone asks a fact-based question or points out an inconsistency in his thin data, he thanks them for posting, acknowledges there are "differences in viewpoints", cherry picks out everything that could be construed as positive and moves on. Standard sleazebag marketing communication techniques.
I think anyone who backs this case will get what they deserve. It's not going to live up to the claims, and it's going to ship late, if ever. Based on what I've seen in this thread and on his website, there's been a lot of inconsistent claims, facts that don't add up - even by Kickstarter standards.
Rob
Just drag them into new folder. Now it's my turn. How do you scroll two windows at the same time without having to click them first. It's easy for a comparison.
Hi Rob ... Thanks for you comment but I am a little concern with your last response ... until that last response you actually made, they were some valid points and worth looking at .. debatable .. and I would regard you as a person of great detail in research .. but I am concern because you missed some very important details which I didn't expect from you. Let me address your points...
Im not sure where you got the comments "I have to stress that I haven’t been able to get this to happen in any normal workload, only what’s effectively a power virus for the GPUs and something quite unrealistic for the CPUs." I didn't didn't say that in this forum or any other place. However I have not tested the Dune case with every application out there but have tested the CPU with industry standard software called Prime95 and the GPU with Furmark. I tested in the summer time and the humidity was 85-95%. Prime95 stress test at 100% load all cores on a i7 4770k factory standard and I was getting min 57-59 degrees Celsius. That is a worse case scenario and all cores consistently load at 100%. I did the same test on the GPU, 100% stress test using Furmark in the same conditions. The result was 65 degrees Celsius with 100% stress test. This was done over a min 6 hours. These software bench marking tools were not created by me but other people. And I do believe that reviewers around the world use these tools as well. What I have said has been well documented in this forum and on my Kickstarter site in update 3 .. Technical details... I have used the Dune case on a day to day basis using Photoshop, illustrator, premier and the case is very quiet and cool.
I have tested this in all prototypes and it would be not wise if I didn't. The reason of having 4 prototypes was to design, test, validate the results, and then fine tune. I have a simple test script that we looked at and we validate. In every stage we are not just doing heat tests with software. We also use Solidworks which is an engineering tool to identify heat spots inside that case. We use simple process improvement methodology when doing this case. Define, measure, analyse, improve, control. And through this improvement cycle and four prototypes later we have the Dune Case.
I was concern as to your knowledge in power supplies as you couldn't recognize the power supply in all the pictures. Hint: I was always using a Silverstone 450W SST-ST45SF-G SFX Modular 80PLUS GOLD PSU. Also it is very clear that the Dune case is only using SFX power supplies. I used this in all prototypes and its the only one I have been using as it is a high grade PSU. If you have read my story on how I brought this to life I did originally use standard GPU for this case but the case was too long as you can see in the picture below. In the last two prototypes we only changed the GPU from full size to Mini ITX and in the last picture (prototype 4) we are still using the same SFX PSU. This has been consistently the same.
Unfortunately I do not have the luxury to buy all the i7, i5, i3 cpu's in the market. Yes more powerful i7 have came out and will continue. But I was very clear that we tested the Dune case with a Intel i7 4470k with standard cooler. The purpose of Kickstarter is help small startups like me to make a product come true. We have a limited budget and spent money on prototypes and due diligence. With all that done we have come to the point were Dune Case can be put into production and Kickstarter is the platform we choose to help make that happen.
The facts I have stated have been consistent and has not changed. I believe your comments have been consistent but your recent comments quoting me from inaccurate sources, failing to recognized the difference with ATX and SFX power supplies, and not understanding why I am doing a Kickstarter campaign really concerns me as it has not been the same with previous comments ...
I am how ever appreciate your attention to this thread and to all those who have viewed and commented so far. My purpose here is to educate people about the Dune Case and assure the audience that this project will be successful. We have a very creditable team on this. Kip Kokinakis is the co-founder with 30 years experience in manufacturing and previous CEO of MyVu and Aureal 3D audio. We have a very talented European designer, world class manufacturing partner in China. We tested and validated all the results and I believe we have taken a different approach on the PC case.
Thanks you all
Alexander Gomez
That was from the Anandtech review of the Mac Pro - that comment was directed at the other poster who mentioned the Mac Pro 98 degree temperature in comparison with your posted temperatures in the 60 degree range.
Alexander - your kickstarter page states “it supports mini-ITX components, including…the fastest i7 CPU (to date)”, yet you’ve only tested it with an 84w i7 from 2013, using a small heatsink & fan. It's been pointed out a few times that there is a large jump to go from a 90mm x 50mm heatsink on an 84w CPU to a high performance 140w CPU (+66% thermal output) i7 and an appropriately sized heastsink, not only in thermal output, but also in physical size. So that’s a claim that you can’t back up, and you ignore this when it’s pointed out to you. That should be a giant red flag to someone considering giving you money to make this.
None of the prototype pictures that you’ve posted show a working prototype that has the configuration of the renderings - this has also been pointed out a few times, and you also skipped direct questions about whether you have tested a machine in the configuration you are advertising on the kickstarter page. That’s relevant because
- if you aren’t prototyping something pretty damn close to the final product, the already aggressive 120-day to ship time seems even less likely
- if you are testing on a prototype that is significantly different in size/layout/components, the thermal characteristics, and therefore the cooling requirements and performance are going to be dramatically different
I don't think the cooling is going to be sufficient unless you’re running low-performance (low-wattage) components, that fan is not a quiet fan and it’s going to have to run fast, and that is not at all how you’re representing this case to backers. All your vague statements of “trust me, I have great people working on it” remind me a bit of someone whose been dominating the news lately. It's one thing if you’re developing it on your own dime, but you are here asking people to fund your venture based on a non-binding promise that you’ll ship them something. I’m just pointing out to potential backers what I think are a few big red flags.
Rob
You mean like the iPad Pro is clear rip-off of Microsoft's Surface Pro?
Hi there Rob, Thanks for your response and I will answer your questions as you have asked.
First if i quoted you incorrectly I do apologize for that. My name is Alexander and many people call me Alex, Ander, Xander, and even Anander .. So when you used the word "Anand's" in your sentence I must of read it wrong and to others it could have been misleading. I apologizes for misreading that.
I have yet to hear a response on your comments on the Power Supply as you did point out and strongly believe that I was using completely different cases with an ATX power supply. Can you please clarify your point as I have genuine concerns of the pictures you are looking at? I did 4 prototypes using the same SFX PSU. I'm still waiting your reply.
I do have a limited budget, I cant test all CPU's, and I based my build on the i7 4770. As technology progresses CPU's may get more hot and Fans may get smaller. The CPU cooler clearence hight is 60mm. It's clear, and you should check the processor CPU cooler fan before putting one into this case.
Lets take it to the basics ... simple question. Why am I doing a Kickstarter campaign? I have build 4 prototypes for the Dune Case and the last prototype is what I have posted on this forum and website. The prototype 4 which I tested is the image bellow.
Based on this prototype I got the temps that I stated before. 57-59 degrees on CPU and 65 on GPU using Prime95 and Furmark on 100% stress on all cores. Let me make it clear those "temps are based on prototype 4". This is not a render and is the actual picture of the case. The final version does have slight pattern changes in the case for production but the temps are not based on those pictures. Its base on a real prototype (prototype 4). How can I give temps on a production version when this case is not in production. If anything the production model will be better in temps.
Once again we have optimized the airflow for this case using engineering tools and CAD. We used solidworks to identify heatspots inside the case and made modifications to the design to achieve optimal air flow. Those design changes are shown in all stages of prototyping. The PSU bracket vital to this as this splits the airflow into two chambers and aids the optimal airflow.
"but you are here asking people to fund your venture based on a non-binding promise that you’ll ship them something. I’m just pointing out to potential backers what I think are a few big red flags."
Let me assure you that before we measured the delivery of this cases, we consulted some of the best manufacturer and consultants in the industry. We have Kip Kokinakis as the co-founder who has 30 years experience in manufacturing, proven track record and was previously the CEO of Aureal 3D audio and MyVu. We also have a manufacturer in China that is world class and has capability to deliver with proven track record. We flew our European CAD engineer / designer to Asia for him work specifically with the manufacture. We looked at all aspects and the delivery time was calculated and measure by people with experience and track record.
So why am I doing a Kickstarter? The answer is simple. We have build and tested this concept (prototype 4) that is a new take on the PC case and if funded we will use those funds to put this into production. The goal amounts have been measured to cover the cost of manufacturing tooling, molds, assembly to put this in to production. This is really a quality build product and its not cheap to manufacture but we have been fortunate to put a talented team together to make this happen.
Alex
First if i quoted you incorrectly I do apologize for that. My name is Alexander and many people call me Alex, Ander, Xander, and even Anander .. So when you used the word "Anand's" in your sentence I must of read it wrong and to others it could have been misleading. I apologizes for misreading that.
I have yet to hear a response on your comments on the Power Supply as you did point out and strongly believe that I was using completely different cases with an ATX power supply. Can you please clarify your point as I have genuine concerns of the pictures you are looking at? I did 4 prototypes using the same SFX PSU. I'm still waiting your reply.
I do have a limited budget, I cant test all CPU's, and I based my build on the i7 4770. As technology progresses CPU's may get more hot and Fans may get smaller. The CPU cooler clearence hight is 60mm. It's clear, and you should check the processor CPU cooler fan before putting one into this case.
Lets take it to the basics ... simple question. Why am I doing a Kickstarter campaign? I have build 4 prototypes for the Dune Case and the last prototype is what I have posted on this forum and website. The prototype 4 which I tested is the image bellow.
Based on this prototype I got the temps that I stated before. 57-59 degrees on CPU and 65 on GPU using Prime95 and Furmark on 100% stress on all cores. Let me make it clear those "temps are based on prototype 4". This is not a render and is the actual picture of the case. The final version does have slight pattern changes in the case for production but the temps are not based on those pictures. Its base on a real prototype (prototype 4). How can I give temps on a production version when this case is not in production. If anything the production model will be better in temps.
Once again we have optimized the airflow for this case using engineering tools and CAD. We used solidworks to identify heatspots inside the case and made modifications to the design to achieve optimal air flow. Those design changes are shown in all stages of prototyping. The PSU bracket vital to this as this splits the airflow into two chambers and aids the optimal airflow.
"but you are here asking people to fund your venture based on a non-binding promise that you’ll ship them something. I’m just pointing out to potential backers what I think are a few big red flags."
Let me assure you that before we measured the delivery of this cases, we consulted some of the best manufacturer and consultants in the industry. We have Kip Kokinakis as the co-founder who has 30 years experience in manufacturing, proven track record and was previously the CEO of Aureal 3D audio and MyVu. We also have a manufacturer in China that is world class and has capability to deliver with proven track record. We flew our European CAD engineer / designer to Asia for him work specifically with the manufacture. We looked at all aspects and the delivery time was calculated and measure by people with experience and track record.
So why am I doing a Kickstarter? The answer is simple. We have build and tested this concept (prototype 4) that is a new take on the PC case and if funded we will use those funds to put this into production. The goal amounts have been measured to cover the cost of manufacturing tooling, molds, assembly to put this in to production. This is really a quality build product and its not cheap to manufacture but we have been fortunate to put a talented team together to make this happen.
Alex
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At the moment there is 2 x (HDMI 2.0) or 2 x (DP 1.2) ... and potentially USB-C with a HUB that has 2 x (HDMI 2.0) or 2 x (DP 1.2) just to be clearer
Would you not look into more than 2 display links. As a lot of people are starting to adopt triple screen set-ups.
Antother potential issue i identify, is that some graphics cards have power connectors on the back and not on the top, that would essentially further limit the length.
Overall i really like it, and would be willing to buy it. Would you consider a white gloss case?
This is neat and all, and it will be interesting to see if this kickstarter comes to fruition, but why would anyone choose to use this form factor?
No censorship has happened. Instead, there is a rather lively discussion about the product. (Something you claimed later in the same post that is in the consumer's best interest to give.)
This is especially ironic, when paired with your *incredibly* incorrect 'armchair lawyer' statement later.
Not to mention the fact that we're not discussing *copyright* here, but rather trade dress, and design patents.
And yet, prospective consumers are showing *great* interest in the 'source of inspiration' for this case, while the 'designer' tries very, *very* hard to pretend that the elephant in the room is, in fact, a house cat.
That's *exactly* what's happening, and yet you told them to "shush".
So, it's in their best interest to pay money and *hope* that the project is allowed to ship, with no guarantee that they'll ever see anything for their money, despite the rather obvious elephant in the room, and the absolutely unrealistic timeline promised by the project?
I've never seen anyone claim that it was in someone's best interest to pay money for *hope* before...
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Hi there tbrinkma ... Thanks for the comments .. The purpose of kickstarter is to help those who have an idea or concept that they have worked on and for the community to help that person to bring there project to life. It is the essence of entrepreneurship. But this is not anything new. Some of the most famous companies started like this. They simply built a concept and had a business plan to make it work. Steve Jobs and woz started building in the garage and so did Micheal Dell and the list goes on. Dune case is no different. We built a prototype and tested it and now it is ready for production. We spent the money and sacrificed time. We built a business plan and now we are ready to deliver. I hope that gives you a better understanding of what we are trying to do and I encourage anyone that has an idea to give it a try. I don't fear in Dune Case not getting funded because I believe it will succeed, I am afraid of not doing something I have always wanted to do.
Replying to my post without actually addressing any of the concerns in the post. I guess you're still trying to pretend that the elephant in the room is a house cat?
Hi tbrinkma .. thanks mate ... but I was simply addressing the issue of your last comment. You seemed concern that I am not able to deliver the project within deadlines and that ...." never seen anyone claim that it was in someone's best interest to pay money for *hope* before.."
I have mentioned many times on this forum that we do have an experienced team with track record to deliver. Kip kokinakis is the co-founder with 30 years experience in manufacturing and being the previous CEO of Aureal 3D audio and MyVu. We have a manufacturing partner that is more than capable. With that expertise and their judgement on the case of delivery we measured carefully what we could deliver. Please look into the background on those involved.
As said in my last comment we are using Kickstarter platform as it enables us to make this into a product. I suggest you look into kickstarter and see the projects that were prototypes that became a product because people believed in their concept and hope. Some good examples of "Hope" the community believes in, are Oculas Rift, Ouya, Pebble watch and the list goes on .. They all build concepts and asked the community to join together to help them make the prototype a reality. It is that same "hope" and determination in something new that changes the place we live in.
Thanks .. Alex
Just wanna say that the Ouya was a piece of junk.
This case = DENIAL. That is all.
In this particular instance, the stale quip of "trash can" actually has some meaning; it is, after all, going to be containing some trash.
[doublepost=1456973496][/doublepost]I think Apple should buy ALL of these, melt them down and forge them into REAL Mac Pro casings
[doublepost=1456973722][/doublepost]Dune will be Duly sued, which would be most august
[doublepost=1456973870][/doublepost]
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I don't understand the objections to this case here.
The liability issues are for the manufacturer to consider, not us. We should be concerned with whether or not the product is interesting or useful to us.
I find amusing the contradictions of finding this to be a "crap" case and finding the MacPro beautiful. If the MacPro is beautiful, then so is this case. The fact that we can then take a beautiful case and do more or different things with it than the MacPro allows is a great thing.
Kudos to Alexander for doing this. Ignore the naysayers/haters. Thank you for having the balls to do this.
I'm all for product creators out there giving me options that Apple doesn't. I also feel like Apple's most beautiful machines are in its past.
I'm waiting for someone to make a case exactly like the tablelamp iMac G4, that could either house a MacMini or a full blown Hackingtosh, or exactly like a G4 (clear) cube but with today's internals (even if the dimensions are not quite exact to account for card size, etc).
Or better yet, for Apple to get its head out and give us "classic/modern" machines like the 2 above. I'd pay MacPro prices for those beauties.
The liability issues are for the manufacturer to consider, not us. We should be concerned with whether or not the product is interesting or useful to us.
I find amusing the contradictions of finding this to be a "crap" case and finding the MacPro beautiful. If the MacPro is beautiful, then so is this case. The fact that we can then take a beautiful case and do more or different things with it than the MacPro allows is a great thing.
Kudos to Alexander for doing this. Ignore the naysayers/haters. Thank you for having the balls to do this.
I'm all for product creators out there giving me options that Apple doesn't. I also feel like Apple's most beautiful machines are in its past.
I'm waiting for someone to make a case exactly like the tablelamp iMac G4, that could either house a MacMini or a full blown Hackingtosh, or exactly like a G4 (clear) cube but with today's internals (even if the dimensions are not quite exact to account for card size, etc).
Or better yet, for Apple to get its head out and give us "classic/modern" machines like the 2 above. I'd pay MacPro prices for those beauties.
There are only 3 days left to support this project, and it still needs to raise another $50K. I personally am backing this, and I wanted to let others who have been thinking about backing it that they need to do it soon.
