Dutch Antitrust Probe Targets Contactless Payments Like Apple Pay

[damnhandy]

All banks DO have access to Apple’s NFC. They simply need to allow their cards to work in Apple’s Wallet

The idea that one of these banks is going to create their own app and payment network with retailer support is ludicrous

Accessing cards the Apple Wallet is not the issue. Of course you would not be able access the payment instruments in another vendors application. The W3C Payments request API doesn't permit that either. That is not the issue.

The issue is that Apple explicitly prohibits the development Payment solutions that would function like Apple Pay in that it such an app would a combination of FaceID or TouchID and NFC. This is akin to how only Safari can use ApplePay or Signin with Apple via Touch ID. This why solutions like PayPal, ChasePay, etc. can't offer a solution like Apple Pay. It's not that they don't have the talent to do it, the license simply does not permit it.

 

[Stridr69]

Oh mercy. Apple Card is just a card. It is not a bank. Apple uses Goldman Sachs bank and MasterCard as the payment processor. Apple Card would not exist without Goldman Sachs and MasterCard. Apple Card is just a Goldman Sachs card with Apple branding and their app.

So does ANY bank. No bank has their own card. It's either MasterCard or Visa. And believe me, they get their cut too!

 

[subi257]

Apple earns a small fee on every transaction. Apple Pay is free for the consumer, but not for the bank.
Those fees add up over time. Lost revenue for the banks.

And why should Apple not get a fee, they put the money, time and engineering to develop it. Why does everybody think that Apple should create things and then give it away for free? I don't really want any changes to Apple Pay that will compromise security or I would just stop using it...and so would many others. When people use credit cards in person at a store, the store pays a fee for each swipe to the bank and different banks charge more than others.

 

[_Spinn_]

The only way this could help consumer choice would be if Apple was allowed to require banks that want to create their own payment app to also support Apple Pay. Otherwise banks would pull support from Apple Pay the minute they had their own payment app.

I bought an iPhone because I want to be in Apple's ecosystem - I don't feel like I'm being harmed by Apple Pay or the App Store. I use Apple Pay because I trust Apple to make it safe, secure, and private and it is convenient to have all my payment options in one place. I don't trust my banks to produce a secure app and I don't want to switch between a handful of payment apps just to use contactless payment. I like being able to launch Apple Pay from the lock screen with the double click of the power button - this wouldn't work with multiple apps to pick from.

Where I live many places don't even accept Apple Pay because they want to track customers' shopping habits. I can use Apple Pay at some restaurants, 4 gas stations (same chain), and 1 smaller grocery store while none of the big-box stores do. Home Depot accepted Apple Pay at one point but then dropped it when they "upgraded" their self-checkouts. Walmart forces you to use their terrible Walmart Pay (which I would never use even if Apple granted them access to use NFC). Kroger also refuses to take Apple Pay. It is maddening that these places still accept Samsung Pay while actively blocking Apple Pay.

I was really hoping that with the rise of Covid more places would accelerate contactless payments but so far that hasn't really been the case for where I shop.

 

[Deguello]

Why don’t they make their own phones then or digital wallet platform and add their own NFC chip in it if they don’t like it?

Zod, I bet macrumors was fun to read when it was MS getting reamed.

“Why don’t they write their own OS if they don‘t want IE to be the default browser?” Right?

 

[Deguello]

I haven't looked into those camera claims, so can't really speak to them. I carry insurance for my computing devices (super-cheap on the homeowner's policy, btw), so any repairs are getting done correctly, or the device gets recycled and replaced.

The very last thing I want is to be forced to use some sh***y app from an untrusted source with access to information that I don't want gathered or sold.

Here's some relevant information about Apple Pay:

How Apple Pay keeps users’ purchases protected

Apple Pay transactions use the Secure Element and NFC controller to keep users’ purchases and data protected.

support.apple.com

That’s an interesting idea. Does the deductible on your homeowner’s policy make it cost effective to use it in this way?

 

[PianoWonder1]

I wanna use the NFC chip on my debit card to gain access to my apartment building. Can't do it. Guess I should call Chase and have them look into it. When they say no, I'll reach out to a antitrust lawyer to have them look into it.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic. I just don't see the difference in the situation.

I have good news for you. The NFC chip in your card doesn't require your bank's approval to be read. You can actually already program the doors in your building to open upon reading it!

 

[PianoWonder1]

All banks DO have access to Apple’s NFC. They simply need to allow their cards to work in Apple’s Wallet

The idea that one of these banks is going to create their own app and payment network with retailer support is ludicrous

I don't get the need for a payment network. Pretty much every business here already has a NFC-capable debit card reader, and Android's bank apps can already be used to pay. This is akin to Apple restricting third party apps from using Bluetooth headphones unless they pay a commission per song played.

 

[rjohnstone]

And why should Apple not get a fee, they put the money, time and engineering to develop it. Why does everybody think that Apple should create things and then give it away for free? I don't really want any changes to Apple Pay that will compromise security or I would just stop using it...and so would many others. When people use credit cards in person at a store, the store pays a fee for each swipe to the bank and different banks charge more than others.

No one is complaining about Apple getting a fee.
The issue here is Apple locks out the NFC chip. No non-Apple app can use the NFC chip.
Apple claims this is for security reasons, but anyone who has developed NFC based apps knows this is complete BS.
This means no other contactless payment option is available for Apple users. On the Android side, you have many options to choose from. Banks and stores can offer contactless payments directly from their own app.
The NFC restrictions are just plain protectionist, and have nothing to do with security.

 

[rjohnstone]

I don't get the need for a payment network. Pretty much every business here already has a NFC-capable debit card reader, and Android's bank apps can already be used to pay. This is akin to Apple restricting third party apps from using Bluetooth headphones unless they pay a commission per song played.

Apple is not a "payment network", they are an intermediary in the transaction. Apple Pay is simply part of the tokenization process.
Credit/Debit cards would not work without a payment network. Decentralized processing would be a nightmare to manage.

 

[rjohnstone]

The only way this could help consumer choice would be if Apple was allowed to require banks that want to create their own payment app to also support Apple Pay. Otherwise banks would pull support from Apple Pay the minute they had their own payment app.

I bought an iPhone because I want to be in Apple's ecosystem - I don't feel like I'm being harmed by Apple Pay or the App Store. I use Apple Pay because I trust Apple to make it safe, secure, and private and it is convenient to have all my payment options in one place. I don't trust my banks to produce a secure app and I don't want to switch between a handful of payment apps just to use contactless payment. I like being able to launch Apple Pay from the lock screen with the double click of the power button - this wouldn't work with multiple apps to pick from.

Where I live many places don't even accept Apple Pay because they want to track customers' shopping habits. I can use Apple Pay at some restaurants, 4 gas stations (same chain), and 1 smaller grocery store while none of the big-box stores do. Home Depot accepted Apple Pay at one point but then dropped it when they "upgraded" their self-checkouts. Walmart forces you to use their terrible Walmart Pay (which I would never use even if Apple granted them access to use NFC). Kroger also refuses to take Apple Pay. It is maddening that these places still accept Samsung Pay while actively blocking Apple Pay.

I was really hoping that with the rise of Covid more places would accelerate contactless payments but so far that hasn't really been the case for where I shop.

I wish this myth would die already.
Merchants and card issuers can still track purchases even with Apple Pay.
My system generates these merchant reports everyday. Depending on the type of inventory tracking and terminal used, we can track down to the individual items purchased.
The Bank/Card Issuer sells these reports back to the merchant. The reports are only specific to THAT merchant, but they can get the transaction info if they want it. Certain PII data is stripped from the reporting, but there is enough there to develop shopping habits.
They don't need to know WHO you are to track purchases. The card identifier can be recognized at the register and identify repeat customers.
Apple Pay only tokenizes the PAN (primary account number) for each transaction, the generated card number, DAN (device account number) the register sees is always the same, the tokenized version sent to the bank is always different for each transaction. Banks decode this on their end so you can be charged accordingly.

Open up Apple Pay and notice that your card has a unique last 4 digits associated with your device in Apple Pay... that number never changes.
Samsung Pay and Google Pay use the same tokenization process as Apple Pay. They will either use EMV (preferred) or MSD (mag stripe emulation) modes to complete the transaction if the terminal doesn't support EMV, but still accepts Apple Pay.
Oh and the Bank/Card Issuer creates their own tokenization applet (basically the crypto keys for the token) used in Apple Pay. Apple hosts it in the secure element. Apple does not create this applet for varying legal and regulatory reasons.

 

[Contact_Feanor]

Dude you just proved my point. No one wants to open up their services to another company but the banks have to open up their servers to allow Apple Pay to access it. Apple certainly wants that privilege but does not want to give anything back in return.

well... No, because the banks can just refuse or negotiate with apple. Apple does give something back: customers. There's a bunch of people that opened a new bank account specifically with a bank that offers Apple Pay.

 

[djphat2000]

Do you use FaceID on your phone? Do any of your apps use FaceID? So what happens when a developer exploits a hole in FaceID or TouchID and then has your fingerprint or facial scan on file. Anything can be hacked, that's not a reason to stifle competition. Do you use a messenger other than iMessage? What happens if a developer exploits a hole in said messaging app and then has access to all the logs of your chats? Apple could say that about every facet of the iPhone and then use that as a reason to exclude all third parties from the iPhone. Then you would be left with a phone with a few first party Apple apps.

I use it all the time. People that purchase an android device DON'T! You have choice. Why pretend that we don't? Why is it so hard to understand that Apple makes the whole widget? That is what they do. They don't have to let anyone else develop for them. Nor is anyone forced to. You want access to Apple's customers, then you play by their rules. Same as Microsoft or google or anyone one else.

Saying it's not fair business practices to not let a developer have access to technology on YOUR device is just laughable. It wasn't built with that in mind. It's not discriminatory, since EVERYONE can't use it. Not, this company gets to but that company can't. Simply put, the EU doesn't like it. And that is pretty much it. They just don't like it. So fine, don't buy it.

And if someone hacks FaceID, guess who we get to blame for it? Apple.. Not Banco De EU.
They created TouchID and FaceID to allow secure login, and keep it separate from the rest of the device. Not something for EVERYONE to interface with. Same with NFC. Yes, they could have enabled it to be used by third party developers. But they choose not to due to security concerns. As you possibly "could" hack into it and steal access to all your sensitive data (passwords, logins, face map, fingerprint, etc). Which is why they DON'T.
Gov't officials don't know $#!T about technology, they just pretend too. Just like when the FBI said they need a backdoor into iPhones. What? Said every hacker ever...

 

[britboyj]

A concise post advocating for consumer choice on MacRumors! I didn’t think I’d live to see the day.


I wonder how many people over the millennia have bet on Europe becoming a wasteland? Still doesn’t seem to have happened. Almost like they know what they’re doing over there or something.

They certainly know how to protect their own interests. They're certainly within their national rights to do so, and once other regions without the restrictions (and insane potential fines) equal Europe's buying power, companies will be within THEIR rights to say "Nah, bye."

Europe is trying to do digitally the global colonialism they lost in the 20th Century. GDPR trying to levy fines against non-EEA companies just because an EU resident visited their website once (or that they weren't allowed to visit because of a geo-gate!) is insane overreach. If China were trying that you people would be screaming from the rooftops.

 

[Powerbooky]

Actually the banks don't do any of this. In Holland ICS runs the show controlling the issuance of Mastercard and Visa cards of behalf of the banks and this company is completely CORRUPT. The main reason why ApplePay took so long was that ICS wanted more money as they would lose out in the whole transaction.

Interestingly enough, this dutch organisation should look at the way the 3 big ones (ING, ABN and RABO) control the whole space with regard to retail banking...

The ACM always will look the other way, especially when banks are involved. Keeping job safety for failing politicians.