Dutch Court Orders Apple to Replace Customer's Broken iPhone With New, Not Refurbished, Model

[JayLenochiniMac]

Apple won't jack up the prices because they already accounted for it in their pricing.

No, they've been giving remanufactured units up to this point and have accounted for that in their pricing. If they're forced to start giving out the more expensive brand new units, you can rest assured they'll jack up the prices over time.

Besides, if anyone dares to do something like that be assured that the authorities will put it under investigation. The risk of being fined is not worth jacking up the prices.

They're not going to be fined because it'll just be a silent increase in retail prices. You already know Apple products are more expensive in Europe compared to the US for a myriad of reasons.

 

[617aircav]

Little do they realize that Apple refurbs are generally better than new...

Absolute Bs.

 

[saross0219]

I'm no expert, but don't we already have the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act that prohibits this?

If you read up on it you'll find they have and can provide clauses to void a warranty by having the conditions stated.

"may not exclude or limit consequential damages for a breach of any written or implied warranty on the product, unless the exclusion or limitation conspicuously appears on the face of the warranty; and"

After 9 months a company has full right to look at a product under warranty, the first month typically is a no argument replacement for most places. If they added clauses, which can be added at any time, your little drop from your pocket that later leads to your phone not working properly could void your warranty replacement, even if your drop is not the direct cause. If your phone has been exposed to water for instance, they know because of items in the phone that will go off. This voids a warranty as that water damage cannot be controlled on what it does and could have been prevented.

The same if you dropped a phone. Better care of said phone could prevent this. Think of your iPhone and how small and compact the components inside are. All apple needs to do is add or look at the history of devices in the phone to determine if your phone has seen considerable shock and or drops and if they add that to a warranty list of exclusions, your new phone that looks perfect is a paper weight.

Only a few people will keep a phone 9 months without it being dropped at all. Even a hard placement on a table, desk, or counter could cause damage. Damage that could days, weeks, or months later cause the phone to stop working.

 

[rdlink]

We don't take the piss out of this case cause we believe McDonald's was in the right.

We take the piss cause she got nearly $3 million dollars. Heck she only wanted $20 000.

It's called punitive damages. It's a very valid tool that the courts use to punish companies who use their wealth and power to quash people with small resources, and continue to ignore what they know to be the right thing.

You fail to mention that yes, all she wanted was $20,000 to cover her expenses, both incurred and expected (she had already spent $18,000 at the time, and had more therapy to go). But McDonald's kept stonewalling her, and would only offer $800, even though they had knowledge of an issue. The evidence in the case clearly showed that McDonald's systematically ignored a known issue, and instead of addressing it in a reasonable way, and owning up to their liability they tried to bully the victim into taking a token payment that would have come nowhere near making her whole. Two days' revenue from coffee sales, which is what the $3 million amounted to was really kind of a slap on the wrist for their overt and intentional tort, if you ask me.

Oh, and she didn't get nearly $3 million. The judge reduced the punitive damages to treble substantive damages.

 

[dyn]

No, they've been giving remanufactured units up to this point and have accounted for that in their pricing. If they're forced to start giving out the more expensive brand new units, you can rest assured they'll jack up the prices over time.

They already accounted for that by giving that 1 year warranty. They are just milking it by refurbishing the products. Refurbishment is not cheap though. Rules and regulations concerning wast (more specifically e-waste) still have to be followed and new components still have to be produced. If the biggest cost is the circuitboard and that one needs replacing than refurbishment has about the same costs (could be higher, could be lower) than new.

They're not going to be fined because it'll just be a silent increase in retail prices.

That's what many corporations thought when they formed a cartel...until they got discovered or a whistleblower went to the authorities. I don't think Apple is as naive as you are. Considering the fact that the company is already under investigation in the EU (multiple investigations even) and has been in the USA for the eBook prices. Any strange thing Apple does is going to show up like a huge bright blip on the radar screen of the investigators.

You already know Apple products are more expensive in Europe compared to the US for a myriad of reasons.

Products in Europe are not more expensive than in the USA. What you mean is that products in the EU are more expensive than the USA and even more specifically in the EU members that use the Euro as their currency. The main reason for that are duties & taxes which are included in the pricing in EU but not in the USA and the fact that VAT in the EU is about 21 to 25% now. But I can tell you that any product within the EU (aka local produce) is cheaper than any product outside the EU that we have to import. Why do you think the Britts are so eager to still get to use the EU internal market without being an EU member?

 

[milo]

When your dishwasher or fridge breaks down, do you demand a brand new one rather than repair it?

The NL law says replacement if the company is unable to repair it.

If my dishwasher or fridge breaks down under warranty and the manufacturer is unable to repair it, I absolutely want them to replace it. There's nothing "nanny" about basic consumer protections.

 

[nikhsub1]

Absolute Bs.

Super intelligent rebuttal! I'm guessing you are a wildly successful attorney

 

[JayLenochiniMac]

The NL law says replacement if the company is unable to repair it.

If my dishwasher or fridge breaks down under warranty and the manufacturer is unable to repair it, I absolutely want them to replace it. There's nothing "nanny" about basic consumer protections.

That's perfectly normal. The point is if they insist on getting a brand new fridge or dishwasher when they can easily repair it, it'll lead to an increase in retail prices to cover the manufacturer's costs. All costs are passed to the customers.
[doublepost=1468425097][/doublepost]

They already accounted for that by giving that 1 year warranty. They are just milking it by refurbishing the products. Refurbishment is not cheap though. Rules and regulations concerning wast (more specifically e-waste) still have to be followed and new components still have to be produced. If the biggest cost is the circuitboard and that one needs replacing than refurbishment has about the same costs (could be higher, could be lower) than new.

Nope, they've accounted for that by giving a one-year warranty AND with the expectation that they'd be able to provide the cheaper remanufactured units rather than brand new as replacement.

You can look forward to a silent price increase in your nanny state.

 

[MH01]

It's called punitive damages. It's a very valid tool that the courts use to punish companies who use their wealth and power to quash people with small resources, and continue to ignore what they know to be the right thing.

You fail to mention that yes, all she wanted was $20,000 to cover her expenses, both incurred and expected (she had already spent $18,000 at the time, and had more therapy to go). But McDonald's kept stonewalling her, and would only offer $800, even though they had knowledge of an issue. The evidence in the case clearly showed that McDonald's systematically ignored a known issue, and instead of addressing it in a reasonable way, and owning up to their liability they tried to bully the victim into taking a token payment that would have come nowhere near making her whole. Two days' revenue from coffee sales, which is what the $3 million amounted to was really kind of a slap on the wrist for their overt and intentional tort, if you ask me.

Oh, and she didn't get nearly $3 million. The judge reduced the punitive damages to treble substantive damages.

I get the legal aspect , not debating it. Though you must understand that to many non Americans and Americans it is a urban "legend" legal decision we use in sarcastic posts....

 

[JayLenochiniMac]

I get the legal aspect , not debating it. Though you must understand that to many non Americans and Americans it is a urban "legend" legal decision we use in sarcastic posts....

True, although it was brought up in this thread to debate the "nannyness" of the US vs. other countries such as the Netherlands.

 

[sulpfiction]

That's extremely incorrect. But nice try.

Why would you say it's extremely incorrect? New Apple products are coming off a mass assembly line somewhere in a giant factory on the other side of the world. Refurbs are generally repaired and thoroughly tested individually by hand and any cosmetic flaws to the screens and shells are hand inspected and fixed using new or perfect replacements. There is no way to tell any difference in quality or performance between new and refurbished units aside from the external packaging. And yes, I am fully aware that bad or damaged units, both new and refurbed slip through the cracks from time to time.

 

[MH01]

True, although it was brought up in this thread to debate the "nannyness" of the US vs. other countries such as the Netherlands.

I'm just pointing out how we got the urban legend about a coffee spill and others ...

Never let the facts get in the way if a good story

http://www.out-law.com/page-3396
[doublepost=1468427566][/doublepost]

That's perfectly normal. The point is if they insist on getting a brand new fridge or dishwasher when they can easily repair it, it'll lead to an increase in retail prices to cover the manufacturer's costs. All costs are passed to the customers.
[doublepost=1468425097][/doublepost]

Nope, they've accounted for that by giving a one-year warranty AND with the expectation that they'd be able to provide the cheaper remanufactured units rather than brand new as replacement.

You can look forward to a silent price increase in your nanny state.

Also Apple has designed thier devices on purpose so they are no longer repairable. Thier choice !! While it maximises profit , it also means repairs are not an option , neither are customer upgrades. Live my the sword, die by the sword.

 

[NOSFERATU]

they actually are allowed, that is why I posted the article. the USDA has approved the "heat to 165 degrees" labeling. that action is supposed to kill all the pathogens the food ships with. an unreasonable expectation as 165 is a lot hotter than necessary to bring your average frozen dinner to eatable temps and difficult to do evenly through the whole item.

so basically, Con Agra, Hormel, Swanson... are allowed to sell contaminated processed foods because they ship with instructions for dealing with the contamination.

Imagine if the sign in the bathrooms at restaurants was, "Employees are unlikely to keep their hands clean so please be prepared to decontaminate any items you purchase from us." That is effectively what you have in the frozen food aisle.
[doublepost=1468365200][/doublepost]
we will all insist on calling them refurbs as that is what Apple calls them,
http://www.apple.com/shop/browse/home/specialdeals/mac
View attachment 639996

That is SALES, NOT replacement devices.

 

[thats all folks]

That is SALES, NOT replacement devices.

okay, what word should we be using? and please, site a source.

 

[JayLenochiniMac]

Also Apple has designed thier devices on purpose so they are no longer repairable. Thier choice !! While it maximises profit , it also means repairs are not an option , neither are customer upgrades. Live my the sword, die by the sword.

Which is fine because they give out remanufactured units, which are better than repairs as you also get a brand new screen (with fresh oleophobic coating), shell and battery.

Point is still if the law insists on brand new, then it'll eventually lead to an increase in retail prices. No regulatory body can dictate what retail prices they can impose on manufacturers (well, they can try considering how nanny these countries are).

 

[kd5jos]

It makes each peace of technology last longer if every manufacturer knows he has to replace faulty units for free with brand new units for two years. I don't see what is wrong with that or calling it nanny state or whining. Just don't make crappy electronics. Its pro-consumer politics.

Definition of Pro Consumer:
A practice that causes a business to charge more for an initial purchase/warranty because...
perception.

The difference between new and refurbished is perception, and that is all.

If a damaged product, or a product that won't last the two years were provided, then people making this argument would have a point. But they don't because a refurb is physically indistinguishable from new and lasts longer than the two years...

So, no. Expecting 100% of products to last two years or more is not reasonable. Expecting that you get brand new when it would be indistinguishable from refurbished and has the same guarantee...

You (the Netherlands) has chosen to pay more for emotional satisfaction. I'm sorry, this isn't pro-consumer, it's very pro-business because they can make more profit off your emotional reaction.

 

[MH01]

Which is fine because they give out remanufactured units, which are better than repairs as you also get a brand new screen (with fresh oleophobic coating), shell and battery.

Point is still if the law insists on brand new, then it'll eventually lead to an increase in retail prices. No regulatory body can dictate what retail prices they can impose on manufacturers (well, they can try considering how nanny these countries are).

This is a case of Apple having thier cake and eating it though .

i think you need to drop the whole "nanny" approach here , cause it's just going to cause an unecessary debate. A legal decision was made, and frankly we have little facts how we got there, so right now this is like the $3 million coffee spill, let's wait for the facts before critics info a whole country as a nanny state eh ?

Let them raise thier prices . Consumer will dictate if even more expansive macs are value for money .

 

[rdlink]

Also Apple has designed thier devices on purpose so they are no longer repairable. Thier choice !! While it maximises profit , it also means repairs are not an option , neither are customer upgrades. Live my the sword, die by the sword.

Hmmm, interesting. You may want to alert the 30 or 40 vendors local to me that popped up on my browser when I just typed in the search "iPhone repair." Or the 4 or 5 of them I see every week when I am out and about in town...

 

[MH01]

Hmmm, interesting. You may want to alert the 30 or 40 vendors local to me that popped up on my browser when I just typed in the search "iPhone repair." Or the 4 or 5 of them I see every week when I am out and about in town...

Official repairers are they ?? The same ones that apple bricked after a touchid replacement.

congratulations, you can go to ifixit and they also show you how to "repair" an iPhone using 3rd party screens etc....

 

[JayLenochiniMac]

This is a case of Apple having thier cake and eating it though .

i think you need to drop the whole "nanny" approach here , cause it's just going to cause an unecessary debate. A legal decision was made, and frankly we have little facts how we got there, so right now this is like the $3 million coffee spill, let's wait for the facts before critics info a whole country as a nanny state eh ?

Let them raise thier prices . Consumer will dictate if even more expansive macs are value for money .

I would actually say that this is a case of the Netherlands customers eating their cake and having it too. They want brand new instead of indistinguishable remanufactured units, while seemingly wanting to keep the prices the same.

It's not an unnecessary debate. This legal decision is simply the outcome of their being a nanny state. Just google its definition and you'll get the following:

"the government regarded as overprotective or as interfering unduly with personal choice."

 

[aristobrat]

Also Apple has designed thier devices on purpose so they are no longer repairable.

That's not the case with the iPhone, is it?

Below is iFixIt's latest repairability score.

Looks like it's the Samsung ones that can't be easily repaired without special tools and risk of damaging components.

Apple's been doing modular iPhone repairs for customers for a few years, IIRC. I remember them just having to replace the camera module on my iPhone 6 (vs. having to give me a replacement phone because they designed the device on purpose to no longer be repairable).

 

[baller1308]

The NL law says replacement if the company is unable to repair it.

If my dishwasher or fridge breaks down under warranty and the manufacturer is unable to repair it, I absolutely want them to replace it. There's nothing "nanny" about basic consumer protections.

Apple was just going to replace it with a refurbished model, which is normal practice. If anything that probably would have been better to get than to get it repaired. Any cosmetic issues with your current phone would have remained if they just did a repair. With a full replacement it's like getting a brand new phone. She probably wouldn't have even noticed if they just put it in a new box and shrink wrapped it.

 

[JayLenochiniMac]

Apple was just going to replace it with a refurbished model, which is normal practice. If anything that probably would have been better to get than to get it repaired. Any cosmetic issues with your current phone would have remained if they just did a repair. With a full replacement it's like getting a brand new phone. She probably wouldn't have even noticed if they just put it in a new box and shrink wrapped it.

Agreed. One small correction though: It's not refurbished but remanufactured. Members tend to use the two interchangeably, but this is incorrect as they're two different animals.

Actual refurbished iPhones that you purchase from a carrier in the US (rather than Apple) don't always or necessarily get a brand new screen, shell and battery, and may simply be cleaned up. White box replacement units from Apple are remanufactured (or may even be new especially right after a new iPhone launch).

 

[apolloa]

Huh? If the law says brand new unit as opposed to replacement unit is required, then it doesn't matter what the culprit is.

Eh? If the law stated a brand new unit then just why did this women take Apple to court to get one? Apple would need to oblige by the law of the land, not just give out reconditioned iPhones willy nilly.

 

[JayLenochiniMac]

Eh? If the law stated a brand new unit then just why did this women take Apple to court to get one? Apple would need to oblige by the law of the land, not just give out reconditioned iPhones willy nilly.

Yep, they'll do that from now on and you can look forward to more expensive iPhones in the near future. Congratulations.