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Morons. Even a "new" phone could have a potentially recycled part or contain recycled material. I guess the Dutch don't care about the environment or being wasteful.

Furthermore, the Apple service phones aren't quite "refurbished" in the tradition sense, as nobody else has ever used that phone before.

It's quite different than a refurbished phone from their carrier or insurance.

But I guess as long as this entitled cancer to our society feels superior with a brand "new" phone, then justice has been served.
 
No idea what story you read but it sure wasn't the one in the first post of this topic.

Europe has got nothing to do with it. Europe is a continent, no more and no less. This is something to do with consumer laws in a specific European country, namely The Netherlands. This country is a kingdom, not a state.

The consumer law of The Netherlands takes some of the EU (European Union, not to be confused with either the European Community or Europe!) regulations because they have to as a EU member. That same EU also gives them a certain amount of freedom in what and how to implement those regulations. This has led to a consumer law that at parts is quite different from the EU regulations. This applies to all EU members and thus one should not use EU regulations but use local law instead.

The consumer law does not say anything about warranty (in Dutch: garantie) at all because we use a completely different point of view: product lifetime. A product has to last for a certain amount of time and you get warranty for the entire (expected) lifetime. This is a huge deviation from EU regulations. The Dutch law simply states that a consumer is entitled to a fully working product (in simple English: a product that does what it says it does and without manufacturer issues/mistakes) for the expected lifetime (in Dutch this is called "non-conformiteit").The amount of warranty you get from the manufacturer influences this: if you have a 1 year warranty that is extendible to 3 (AppleCare) then the product should last for at least 3 years). For a notebook the expected lifetime would be 3 years and for a washing machine this is 10 years. The EU regulation speaks of 2 years in both cases. In the first 6 months after purchase the seller has to proof that the product is fully working, after 6 months the consumer has to proof the product does not and the manufacturer/seller is to blame (within reason). This is the same as in the EU regulations. Part of that law also states when you are entitled to a new product, a refund and when the product may be repaired (in all cases this is entirely free for the customer).

The reason for the consumer laws is quite simple: there have been many lawsuits concerning consumer rights and downright criminal acts from certain sellers (scams) as well as misleading commercials. Going to court in The Netherlands is not easy and very costly. Not to mention that it adds more cases to already very busy courts. So what the consumer laws do is lay out the rules for buying and selling products and services in order to prevent silly and/or complex lawsuits concerning products/services. It has rules for manufacturers, sellers AND consumers. To give an example: consumers have to do their homework. They have to get themselves informed about the product/service before buying. Something similar also applies to the seller: they have to inform the consumer about the product/service. As you can see it is trying to create a certain balance. Consumers don't have the big financial funds like companies (it's basically David vs Goliath) have so they get a bit more protection.

I hope people do realise that not every company uses the same definition of "refurbished". Some companies take in the broken devices, look at what is broken and fix it. Others do a complete overhaul of the device and replace other components just in case (think of things like seals, o-rings, etc.). It's more like a combination of refurbishment and a revision. The biggest difference is in testing. Most only test the repairs, not the entire device; others do some simple quick tests and some (like the ones doing the complete overhaul) really do extensive tests to make sure the device really is as good as new. Due to economics most do very simple tests and thus most refurbished products aren't free of defects. This is specially the case for products with water damage. Too often the defects occur only months after the damage was inflicted. That means that any testing will not pick it up and thus the device is falsely labeled "as good as new".

In The Netherlands there is hardly a culture of refurbished products like in the USA. A refurbished products is considered the same as a repaired product as that is what usually happens to those products in The Netherlands. There still is a risk of other defects. The biggest issue with refurbished products is the warranty. The warranty is much lower than for a new product. If you're lucky you get 1 year but all to often it will be no more than 3 months. On a new product you get the 2 year warranty (per EU regulation) or more (per Dutch consumer law). That's why it is better to buy new than to buy refurbishment and also the reason why refurbished is cheaper than new.

As for the ruling: the court looked at the consumer laws and in some cases they ask the European Court of Justice (ECJ) because they want to know how to interpret the EU regulations (for this ruling to looked at a previous statement by the ECJ in a case against the German company called Quelle; this is a well known and often referred to case). In this case the law stated that the consumer was entitled to a new product, not refurbished one. The court does not look and may not look at how sensible a law/regulation is because that is a task for the government (the Dutch system is based on trias politica). They also do not look at what the rule says but also at the reasoning behind the rule. This allows for a thief to be convicted even though the stolen goods have been returned by him.
The ruling does explicitly state that Apple deemed the iPhone unrepairable. Something that is unrepairable is also not able to be refurbished (refurbished requires repairs which is impossible). Furthermore Apple stated that the iPhone falls under its warranty regulation and not the so called "non-conformiteit" (the entitlement for a fully working product) because you have to look at when the iPhone was sold and if it functioned properly at that time which it did.

Hopefully this gives a better understanding of both Dutch consumer law, how it relates to the EU (not Europe!) and the issue plus ruling in this case. I tried to explain it as simple as I could, there will be things left out and the wording can be too simplistic.

So, ALL you've done is make sarcastic and rude comments! About my use of the word Europe! Because you aren't able to read that as short for European! And then you stated EXACTLY THE SAME AS I DID in a thousand word essay. Well done.
You have literally done nothing! And taught me nothing! New!

Was that enough exclamation marks for you?!! The only thing you've managed to achieve is waste your time by trying to be clever.
 
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Official repairers are they ?? The same ones that apple bricked after a touchid replacement.

congratulations, you can go to ifixit and they also show you how to "repair" an iPhone using 3rd party screens etc....

Oh, so "official" repairers are suddenly your standard, now? Way to move the ball.

If you're talking about "official" repairers you can take your iPhone to Apple and they will repair it for you. If it's a broken screen or something simple to fix so that they can get you back up in running in a short amount of time. If it's more complicated than that they'll swap it out for you, and either send your old one to be refurbished, or recycle it.
 
So what? How does that affect the price of fish, make the product properly in the first place man.

Perhaps that'll work with lesser manufacturers, but you're not going to get better products brand new compared with Apple's remanufactured units. Another member stated this quite nicely, and I'll quote him here:

"Definition of Pro Consumer:
A practice that causes a business to charge more for an initial purchase/warranty because...
perception.

The difference between new and refurbished is perception, and that is all.

If a damaged product, or a product that won't last the two years were provided, then people making this argument would have a point. But they don't because a refurb is physically indistinguishable from new and lasts longer than the two years...

So, no. Expecting 100% of products to last two years or more is not reasonable. Expecting that you get brand new when it would be indistinguishable from refurbished and has the same guarantee...

You (the Netherlands) has chosen to pay more for emotional satisfaction. I'm sorry, this isn't pro-consumer, it's very pro-business because they can make more profit off your emotional reaction."
 
Oh, so "official" repairers are suddenly your standard, now? Way to move the ball.

If you're talking about "official" repairers you can take your iPhone to Apple and they will repair it for you. If it's a broken screen or something simple to fix so that they can get you back up in running in a short amount of time. If it's more complicated than that they'll swap it out for you, and either send your old one to be refurbished, or recycle it.

If you want to keep your warranty yeah.

Why on earth would you introduce dodgey non official repair options into this thread? Not relevant.

And apart from the screen, what can you repair??
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Which is fine because they give out remanufactured units, which are better than repairs as you also get a brand new screen (with fresh oleophobic coating), shell and battery.

Point is still if the law insists on brand new, then it'll eventually lead to an increase in retail prices. No regulatory body can dictate what retail prices they can impose on manufacturers (well, they can try considering how nanny these countries are).

If apple wants to raise their prices they have every right.

Personally I'm disappointed everything they make is glued together these days, and it's throw away instead of repair.

I like apple refurbished products, but am anti new devices cause if something goes wrong after warranty, there is no repair option, complete replacement......this is how apple makes new sales....crap direction they are going for me.

After decades of owning computers, I'm not about to start throwing them out cause X component has died.
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That's not the case with the iPhone, is it?

Below is iFixIt's latest repairability score.

Looks like it's the Samsung ones that can't be easily repaired without special tools and risk of damaging components.

Apple's been doing modular iPhone repairs for customers for a few years, IIRC. I remember them just having to replace the camera module on my iPhone 6 (vs. having to give me a replacement phone because they designed the device on purpose to no longer be repairable).

View attachment 640107

Don't forget the more important aspect of this Apple computers. I can handle idevices glued together and replaceable instead of repair . You cannot even change a HD in a time machine....
 
If apple wants to raise their prices they have every right.

Personally I'm disappointed everything they make is glued together these days, and it's throw away instead of repair.

I like apple refurbished products, but am anti new devices cause if something goes wrong after warranty, there is no repair option, complete replacement......this is how apple makes new sales....crap direction they are going for me.

After decades of owning computers, I'm not about to start throwing them out cause X component has died.

Perhaps it's worse with computers, but it's not really a big deal with iPhones because they're only be useful for so long and you'll upgrade anyway. How long did you want? AC+ adds another year and you can easily extend that to the 3rd year with credit card extended warranty (at least in the US).
 
Perhaps it's worse with computers, but it's not really a big deal with iPhones because they're only be useful for so long and you'll upgrade anyway. How long did you want? AC+ adds another year and you can easily extend that to the 3rd year with credit card extended warranty (at least in the US).

I'm fine with refurb units for idevices . I've received 4 of them and been very happy with them.

These days i just buy AC+ and don't waste my money on cases. Love the AC+ option
 
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Remanufactured iphones are built from perfectly functioning parts of previously "new" phones, that someone got swapped out at the bar. You're still getting a brand new screen/battery/unibody enclosure. These devices are individually tested for quality, and are more likely to give you less headaches than a "new" device.
To corroborate, my dad worked for many years as a reliability engineer. I was the kid who knew what MTBF and MTTR meant. And it wasn't just an observation, it was a well-documented thing, which was figured into all their equations, that a part newly returned from service (where it was carefully and individually tested/inspected) was more reliable than a brand new-out-of-the-box part.
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Personally I'm disappointed everything they make is glued together these days, and it's throw away instead of repair.
Their equipment is designed to be quite reusable, in the bigger picture. Return an iPhone for recycling, and it is taken apart and basically everything is either recycled or reused. They design for this. It's not especially that they don't want other people repairing them, that's just not really on their radar. Mechanical fasteners make repairs by others easier, sure, but they also add mechanical failure points to the devices that the glue doesn't (screws can work their way loose), as well as taking space. But don't equate adhesive to "throw away". If you throw away an Apple device, it's you hurting the planet, not Apple. Take the device in for recycling (actually, I'm pretty sure they'll send you a mailer if you ask - you don't have to leave home); they'll take care of it, and you may get some credit towards a new device if you want one.
 
My point is more like if you make it a law that manufacturers have to give you a brand new washer and fridge when they break down, then you can look forward to them jacking up the retail prices as a result. All costs are passed to the customer.



It's already built into the prices. I.e., they would be lower if they didn't have the 14-day return policy.

Do you now have a law that requires Apple to provide you a brand new Apple laptop rather than repair it when it croaks? If not, then it won't make any difference.

The point all along is Apple will eventually jack up the prices across the board if they're forced to start giving out brand new units rather than remanufactured.

But they don't. Apple didn't used to have a 14 day return policy. They used to have a restock fee up until 2010 I believe? (Might be different dates in US and UK) Prices didn't change - as I said they still have products in all the same price points as they once did. Or maybe it goes deeper, maybe Ive is holding back tech so they cost less to manufacture but still charge us more!

I'm also pretty confused about this whole washer thing still, you might need to clarify because what situation involves a whole washer going back to the factory? I may have to do some research on this but surely they get scrapped, or simply no returns beyond the warranty date? There really must be a better example you could use here. Please have a think on it.
 
But they don't. Apple didn't used to have a 14 day return policy. They used to have a restock fee up until 2010 I believe? (Might be different dates in US and UK) Prices didn't change - as I said they still have products in all the same price points as they once did. Or maybe it goes deeper, maybe Ive is holding back tech so they cost less to manufacture but still charge us more!

Trust me they're still finding a way to pass the costs back to the customer. As you pointed out, components are getting cheaper, but they're still charging the same prices. However, they could be passing it indirectly through the higher AC+ deductible and Out-Of-Warranty replacement prices. They've jacked up the AC+ deductible from originally $49 to $79 to now $99, and the OOW replacement prices from originally $179 to $199 to $229 to $279 to now $299. They're pretty big price increases and could be indirectly subsidizing the more generous return policy.

I'm also pretty confused about this whole washer thing still, you might need to clarify because what situation involves a whole washer going back to the factory? I may have to do some research on this but surely they get scrapped, or simply no returns beyond the warranty date? There really must be a better example you could use here. Please have a think on it.

Again, that's besides the point. All I'm saying if if they were to pass a law requiring manufacturers to give you a brand new washer/fridge if it breaks down (rather than repair it), you'll see an increase in retail prices. Nothing more than that. Merely hypothetical and it has nothing to do with real-life situation that might involve a whole washer going back to factory.
 
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If you want to keep your warranty yeah.

Why on earth would you introduce dodgey non official repair options into this thread? Not relevant.

And apart from the screen, what can you repair??

Your argument gets more absurd with every iteration. If my phone is under warranty why would I not just take it in and have it fixed or replaced by Apple? How does them repairing or replacing my phone under warranty somehow cost me more money? Your logic and sliding fact set is twisting you into a pretzel.
 
Trust me they're still finding a way to pass the costs back to the customer. As you pointed out, components are getting cheaper, but they're still charging the same prices. However, they could be passing it indirectly through the higher AC+ deductible and Out-Of-Warranty replacement prices. They've jacked up the AC+ deductible from originally $49 to $79 to now $99, and the OOW replacement prices from originally $179 to $199 to $229 to $279 to now $299. They're pretty big price increases and could be indirectly subsidizing the more generous return policy.
Well yes building a 2002 laptop in 2016 would be a lot cheaper. All components have changed and improved, all need to be developed to reduce energy consumption, heat. And we have huge improvements too like how refined and precise the cases have to be these days compared to slapping quicker+cheaper made plastic panels together.
 
Your argument gets more absurd with every iteration. If my phone is under warranty why would I not just take it in and have it fixed or replaced by Apple? How does them repairing or replacing my phone under warranty somehow cost me more money? Your logic and sliding fact set is twisting you into a pretzel.

Mr genius ...... Though obvious to many here , and discussed many many times within the MR community.....did you at some point stop and consider what happens outside of warranty ???

Since you are struggling here....I said apple products , not jsut iPhones. Let me explain this in a way you will finally understand .

I have a 2009 iMac. Parts died on me. I've replaced the LCD, Hdd, super drive and a fan. User serviceable, it's still going strong.

Take a 2015 IMac..... Something dies....what can I fix.....???

Do you get the concept that when more and more components are soldered on, and the unit is glued together , not to be opened, the option OUTSIDE warranty is replacement. They are not cheap.

Do you get how the current generation of apple gear is meant to be replaced ?? And since warranty is only 3 years max, they are no longer facing scenarios like me and my 2009 iMac, which outside of warranty has been fixed and still going strong 2016. Current gen means replacement and more $$$$ for apple..... So hard to comprehend?

Also.....omg...have you not noticed how the prices of AC+ , repairs and replacements costs have gone up over the last 4 years..... Is this not costing you more.....wow! Think it through .
 
I never minded getting a refurb as long as the case and battery was new. I hate getting a refurb battery bc they never last long. If Apple could at least make this happen that would be great.

The problem with this case, Apple clearly states its terms and the judge ruled in her favor. So basically any conditions you write mean nothing in court. I'm now going to use this case when I break several laws saying they don't apply to me because I don't agree with them.
 
I never minded getting a refurb as long as the case and battery was new. I hate getting a refurb battery bc they never last long. If Apple could at least make this happen that would be great.

You must not be talking about refurbished iPods and iPads (at least those sold by Apple), or remanufactured iPhones. They all get a brand new battery.
 
News have new batteries
Refurbs have new batteries AND better assembly
Don't get why you were listing new battery as a pro for a refurbished phone. That's like me saying a new iPhone has an lcd, headphone jack, lightning port, etc as a pro...P.S. I have no issues with refurb. What I would perhaps have a problem with is getting a refurb within 1 month of purchasing a new device.
 
Don't get why you were listing new battery as a pro for a refurbished phone. That's like me saying a new iPhone has an lcd, headphone jack, lightning port, etc as a pro...P.S. I have no issues with refurb. What I would perhaps have a problem with is getting a refurb within 1 month of purchasing a new device.

In the context of this thread, it just means that's one less difference between brand new and remanufactured and hence irrelevant.
 
So I went in to buy a 2015 a Lexus and was so beyond happy. About 5 months in, there was a problem and the car wouldn't start. It seemed all the oil leaked out, the indicator did not show and pretty much destroyed the engine.

I got my car towed to the Lexus dealership and the person there was very nice and polite. He brought out paperwork and wanted me to sign up and exchange my car that was faulty (their fault) for a "re-conditioned" Lexus. Somehow I was feeling cheated and said give me my money back or give me a new Lexus..that is what I paid for. He said that was company policy and I had no recourse.

Naturally, the above is fiction but for some folks, that is exactly how they feel when the put out a fair sum of money for their iPhone and due to no fault of their own or by way of warranty (extended or not but covered) then handed a phone that is not new as a replacement. I can understand the person being unhappy.

All said and done, if an iPhone cannot be properly repaired Apple should replace it with a NEW iPhone if it is under warranty and no fault of the iPhone owner. Just an opinion.
 
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So I went in to buy a 2015 a Lexus and was so beyond happy. About 5 months in, there was a problem and the car wouldn't start. It seemed all the oil leaked out, the indicator did not show and pretty much destroyed the engine.

I got my car towed to the Lexus dealership and the person there was very nice and polite. He brought out paperwork and wanted me to sign up and exchange my car that was faulty (their fault) for a "re-conditioned" Lexus. Somehow I was feeling cheated and said give me my money back or give me a new Lexus..that is what I paid for. He said that was company policy and I had no recourse.

Naturally, the above is fiction but for some folks, that is exactly how they feel when the put out a fair sum of money for their iPhone and due to no fault of their own or by way of warranty (extended or not but covered) then handed a phone that is not new as a replacement. I can understand the person being unhappy.

All said and done, if an iPhone cannot be properly repaired Apple should replace it with a NEW iPhone if it is under warranty and no fault of the iPhone owner. Just an opinion.

They're perfectly capable of putting in a new engine, you know. Hence my example of demanding a brand new fridge when they can easily repair it and that'll only lead to an increase in retail prices if mandated by law.

You now have a used iPhone. A remanufactured iPhone that looks no different from brand new is better than your broken used iPhone, even if they take the time and have the capability to "properly repair it." There's no free lunch and you'll pay for this law.
[doublepost=1468481609][/doublepost]Do I understand correctly that Apple must either repair it or provide a brand new device?

Since they don't normally repair it, they offer remanufactured replacements that are indistinguishable from brand new.

Either one of two things will happen: 1) Apple will stop swapping out on the spot and you'll be forced to send out your iPhone to the depot while they repair it (instead of bothering building remanufactured devices since they can no longer offer them as replacement), and you'll be without your iPhone for weeks at a time, just like how they currently do it for the Apple Watch, or 2) you can look forward to them jacking up the retail prices as they'll pass the costs of providing brand new replacements to you.

Dumb, dumb law. You must enjoy living in your nanny state.
 
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