Early iPad User Complaints: Weak Wi-Fi, Charging Issues

[AidenShaw]

I repeat, so long as you maintain compatibility with the full spec, you can do whatever you want.

This is an absurd statement.

"If you obey the full spec, you can do whatever you want."

No. The spec sets quite a few limits, you cannot do "whatever you want". There's some freedom and leeway - but not "whatever you want".

If "I want to do 6000 mA at 9v" - can't do it, out of spec. Too much current, too many volts.
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The real point of the thread, though, is the Ipad charging fiasco. A fully compliant USB high-power 2.0 port has to provide 500 mA at 5v.

If the Ipad needs 501 mA at 5v, Apple cannot say that you can connect it to a high-power USB 2.0 port. That's why Apple says "Some USB 2.0 ports and accessories do not provide enough power to charge iPad" and is very vague about support.

Apple - "standards are good when they help us, but we ignore them if we think that we have a better idea".

 

[cmaier]

This is an absurd statement.

"If you obey the full spec, you can do whatever you want."

No. The spec sets quite a few limits, you cannot do "whatever you want". There's some freedom and leeway - but not "whatever you want".

If "I want to do 6000 mA at 9v" - can't do it, out of spec. Too much current, too many volts.
_______________________

The real point of the thread, though, is the Ipad charging fiasco. A fully compliant USB high-power 2.0 port has to provide 500 mA at 5v.

If the Ipad needs 501 mA at 5v, Apple cannot say that you can connect it to a high-power USB 2.0 port. That's why Apple says "Some USB 2.0 ports and accessories do not provide enough power to charge iPad" and is very vague about support.

Apple - "standards are good when they help us, but we ignore them if we think that we have a better idea".

What does the bold statement physically mean? You can't just supply current that isn't drawn by something. If the device draws 500mA and it's a 6A port, only 500mA will be supplied.

 

[AidenShaw]

If "I want to do 6000 mA at 9v" - can't do it, out of spec. Too much current, too many volts.

What does the bold statement physically mean? You can't just supply current that isn't drawn by something. If the device draws 500mA and it's a 6A port, only 500mA will be supplied.

It means - "If I want to make a port that is able to source 6000mA at 9v".

But, I can't do that - it's out of spec both on current and voltage.

The earlier claim is also absurd:

"If you obey the full spec, you can do whatever you want."​

It should be apparent that you can't do "whatever you want" *and* "obey the full spec". The latter obviously precludes the former.

 

[cmaier]

If "I want to do 6000 mA at 9v" - can't do it, out of spec. Too much current, too many volts.



It means - "If I want to make a port that is able to source 6000mA at 9v".

But, I can't do that - it's out of spec on current and voltage.

Well, the port can't be 9v, for sure. But assuming it's set to the right voltage, I don't think there would be an issue sourcing 6A if that was the current drawn by the device plugged into the port. I should think current requirements in the spec. are minimum requirements. (Of course, inrush current must be limited, but as long as the port sources the minimum specified in the spec. [so the device can operate], I can't see a reason not to supply more if the device actually demands it because its input impedence is high).

 

[Burger Thing]

The real point of the thread, though, is the Ipad charging fiasco.

Charging fiasco... Apple provided a wall charger with it for a reason, it seems. Connect it to your computer when you want to sync stuff and if it charges at the same time, fine. If not, just connect it to the wall charger. What is the big deal?

It is such a non issue, really

 

[OldBobsledGuy]

Works fine

I've tested mine at work, around a few coffee shops, a Chick-Fil-A (still managed to keep additional grease off of it) and it worked wonderfully. No complaints.

 

[Big-TDI-Guy]

"Hi-Power" USB: 2.5W
"Low-Power" USB: 0.5W
Firewire 800: (Apple) 7.0W

"Wags finger @ "

 

[AidenShaw]

Well, the port can't be 9v, for sure. But assuming it's set to the right voltage, I don't think there would be an issue sourcing 6A if that was the current drawn by the device plugged into the port. I should think current requirements in the spec. are minimum requirements. (Of course, inrush current must be limited, but as long as the port sources the minimum specified in the spec. [so the device can operate], I can't see a reason not to supply more if the device actually demands it because its input impedence is high).

No argument with you - I'm responding to Matticus' claim that "I repeat, so long as you maintain compatibility with the full spec, you can do whatever you want". To me, "following the spec" and "doing whatever I want" are mutually exclusive.

 

[AidenShaw]

Charging fiasco...

The fiasco is that Apple says "a high-power USB 2.0 port".

If it doesn't work with "most PCs and older Apples", is Apple claiming that most PCs aren't USB 2.0, and that older Apples weren't?

 

[Burger Thing]

The fiasco is that Apple says "a high-power USB 2.0 port".

If it doesn't work with "most PCs and older Apples", is Apple claiming that most PCs aren't USB 2.0, and that older Apples weren't?

Personally, I think this is a non-issue. Maybe a bit annoying for some. But "Fiasco"? Ha Ha. There are few other matters in life which are worthy to be called fiasco. But that the iPads can't be charged on some computers? Gimme a break.

 

[matticus008]

This is an absurd statement.

"If you obey the full spec, you can do whatever you want."

No. The spec sets quite a few limits, you cannot do "whatever you want". There's some freedom and leeway - but not "whatever you want".

Maintaining compatibility with the full specification is the limit. You can do anything you like within those confines. It's not difficult to parse. If a function does not interfere with any spec-compliant device, and it meets the minimum requirements of the spec, it's good to go. USB specifies minimums for cross-compatibility. It imposes very few maximums.

As I said, so long as you don't break anything, you're free to extend to your heart's content.

If "I want to do 6000 mA at 9v" - can't do it, out of spec. Too much current, too many volts.

That's outside of compatibility with the spec, and thus once again, violates the condition precedent of my statement.

The real point of the thread, though, is the Ipad charging fiasco. A fully compliant USB high-power 2.0 port has to provide 500 mA at 5v.

If the Ipad needs 501 mA at 5v, Apple cannot say that you can connect it to a high-power USB 2.0 port.

But it doesn't. 500mA is fine.

 

[MacPhilosopher]

Hmm...

"Hi-Power" USB: 2.5W
"Low-Power" USB: 0.5W
Firewire 800: (Apple) 7.0W

"Wags finger @ "

Charges when plugged into wall, wags finger at those complaining about something that is not an issue ;-)

 

[matticus008]

No argument with you - I'm responding to Matticus' claim that "I repeat, so long as you maintain compatibility with the full spec, you can do whatever you want". To me, "following the spec" and "doing whatever I want" are mutually exclusive.

They're not mutually exclusive. You can do whatever you want in life, so long as you obey the laws. Here, the law is the USB spec. If you don't break compatibility with any USB-compliant devices, you haven't broken the law.

As cmaier and I have explained, supplying additional power, subject to inrush limits, has no impact on any USB device and thus maintains full compatibility with the spec. The computer exceeds the minimum requirements of USB 2.0, but does not exceed any maximum requirement. It is thus completely 'legal'.

Likewise, the iPad can take advantage of power beyond 500mA/5V (=2.5W), but does not require it. Thus a standard high-power USB 2.0 port will either power the iPad or charge the iPad, depending on user action. It breaks no minimum or maximum of USB compatibility. It simply happens to be that the iPad draws 2.48W in operation (maybe even specifically targeted to stay under the 500mA USB limit), and so connected to a standard USB port, there is not any left over power to charge the battery when the iPad is not asleep.

 

[charlituna]

They can't do extensive "field" testing because Steve Jobs would never want one of his precious baby ipads to be seen in "The wild" so to speak, god forbid someone get a photo of the ipad before it actually comes out to the public.

Every other company is the same way,at least to a degree. But even then they test as many variations as they can come up with. but there are millions of possibilities.

So this is how the consumer now gets to suffer with a substandard product that has not been fully tested in the field.

the reported case count is only like 0.005% of all units sold. And there's no data to prove that it's the ipads and not a problem with the routers. so calling substandard is a bit much

 

[Apple Knowledge Navigator]

Just plug the the ****er into the wall and charge it!

Whats wrong with you people???????????

 

[twilson]

Older hardware is LOW-power USB 2.0

The fiasco is that Apple says "a high-power USB 2.0 port".

If it doesn't work with "most PCs and older Apples", is Apple claiming that most PCs aren't USB 2.0, and that older Apples weren't?

No, Apple isn't "claiming" anything. The evidence quite clearly points to non-working PCs/Macs having low-power USB 2.0 ports.

Or did that logical other option somehow pass you by?

If you have low-power USB 2.0 on a current PC it's because of cheap-ass hardware and cutting costs by the manufacturer. Most people will never know. But, you get what you pay for.

 

[dempson]

USB charging explained

And, is Apple talking about a USB-compliant high power port which supplies 500mA (and should have current-limiting to avoid exceeding 500mA per port) - or do these Apples have non-standard USB ports that are not compliant with the USB standard for current limiting?

There is a recent (April 2009) addendum to USB 2.0 which allows ports to output more than 500 mA for charging a battery. (As I see has been found later in this discussion.)

http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs/batt_charging_1_1.zip

Based on this, an iPad should be able to get up to 900 mA from a "charging downstream" USB port. (The 900 mA limit is due to the iPad being a high-speed device.)

The iPad power adapter is able to supply up to 1800 mA and remain within the USB battery charging specification, as it is a "dedicated charging port". That works out to 9W, not 10W. The "10W" figure may just be convenient rounding, or may refer to the power consumption rather than power output.

Apple has a document mentioning that recent Mac models can supply up to 1100 mA (at 5V) via one USB port:

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4049

After searching through Apple developer documentation and observing friends' Macs, it appears that the Mac models which support the battery charging specification include:

iMac: "Early 2008" (iMac8,1) and later.
MacBook: "Early 2008" (MacBook4,1) and later.
MacBook Pro: "Early 2008" (MacBookPro4,1) and later.
Mac Mini: "Early 2009" (Macmini3,1) and later.
Mac Pro: "Early 2009" (Macpro4,1) and later.

These are all models introduced from February 2008.

I haven't seen evidence for the 2009 Xserve and late 2008 MacBook Air, but they are probably in the above group based on their release date.

For all of the above models, Snow Leopard's System Profiler shows an "Extra Operating Current" field in the USB section for an iPhone 3GS, indicating they can supply more than 500 mA to that device. I expect the same will be shown for an iPad.

There is a group of slightly older models that have special support for Apple's aluminium USB keyboard, allowing it to supply 500 mA via one port on the keyboard (which requires 900 mA from the computer). This group includes all models introduced from June 2007, thus one more series of each Mac model. The original MacBook Air (Jan 2008) can also output more than 500 mA for the MacBook Air SuperDrive.

I don't know whether this group will supply more than 500 mA to other devices: there is no evidence in System Profiler if an iPhone 3GS is connected, and I don't have access to an iPad (yet) to test it, nor the appropriate USB keyboard.

 

[billyjoegibsonx]

As much as i wanted to get an iPad in all the hype surrounding it, This is why I'd have waited for Rev.B/C

I live in the UK, so hopefully Apple can get whatever problems fixed by the time its out here However, I think I'll still wait for Rev.B/C

 

[tibi08]

As much as i wanted to get an iPad in all the hype surrounding it, This is why I'd have waited for Rev.B/C

I live in the UK, so hopefully Apple can get whatever problems fixed by the time its out here However, I think I'll still wait for Rev.B/C

If the worse "rev A" problem is that you have to use the (supplied) wall charger to charge the iPad, then I will happily buy rev A! Christ, that makes it one of the most successful product launches ever by Apple.

 

[Aries326]

When I borrowed my friend's iPad the other night, I brought it home and tried to get it working with my AirPort Extreme. I had two networks set up on it. One for private, and one for public. For some reason, with the iPad, it asked me if I wanted to connect to the 5ghz private network. I don't ever recall ever setting up a specific 5ghz network. Nevertheless, I picked the the private network running on "G". I'm willing to bet that these people with signal issues are working on the 5ghz spectrum which have poorer range but better speed up close.

 

[AidenShaw]

There is a recent (April 2009) addendum to USB 2.0 which allows ports to output more than 500 mA for charging a battery. (As I see has been found later in this discussion.)

That's a nice summary of where we've ended up, plus useful information on which Apples have "charging ports". Thanks.


The real problem, then, is just that Apple's support document (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4060) on charging the Ipad should be using the term "charging port" rather than the term "high-power port".

The USB 2.0 spec clearly defines "high-power" to be a standard 500mA/5v (2.5w) port. The USB device class addendum defines a "charging port" which can safely deliver more than 500mA.

I will believe that "most PCs" don't have charging ports, but not that "most PCs don't have high-power ports".
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By the way, I found an interesting wall wart with 4 USB charging ports, in case anyone wants to charge a family of high current devices at once:

(click to enlarge)
http://www.usbfever.com/index_eproduct_view.php?products_id=1141

 

[Ries]

When I borrowed my friend's iPad the other night, I brought it home and tried to get it working with my AirPort Extreme. I had two networks set up on it. One for private, and one for public. For some reason, with the iPad, it asked me if I wanted to connect to the 5ghz private network. I don't ever recall ever setting up a specific 5ghz network. Nevertheless, I picked the the private network running on "G". I'm willing to bet that these people with signal issues are working on the 5ghz spectrum which have poorer range but better speed up close.

The 5Ghz N has almost double range of G and same range as 2.4GHz N.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11

 

[Aries326]

with all due respect, where the hell have you people been? The WiFi connectivity on my iPhone 3G is abysmal unless I'm standing next to the access point (which is an Airport Extreme) and has been over the last few updates. In fact, it doesn't even connect to WiFi half the time - it sticks to 3G.

Color me totally unsurprised.

Your unit must be defective. I've got an Airport extreme on the ground level, tucked in a built in cabinet in my great room. I've got a 3GS, my wife has a 3G and we have no issues with using wifi on our phones from either the basement or upstairs or outside. We have a 3300 square foot home, just to give you an idea on what kind of range we've been getting. Maybe you've got a huge house and that's why your signal is poor. Make sure the airport extreme is set to automatic radio mode and automatic radio channel selection.

I've played around with the settings a lot since I have another computer on the wireless network that I use as a media server, connected to a flat screen and some of the movies I have are actually streamed over from the HD connected to the Airport Extreme. Letting the router pick the radio more and channel has worked best for me.

 

[skyehill]

Really, you are still naive enough to call the iPad a big iPod touch? Do you know anything about the iPad or even seen a commercial? Spend 15 minutes with an iPad and you will understand. If so, you wouldn't make such foolish remarks.

I've spent the last two days with an iPad. It's a giant ipod Touch.

And come on, folks, this isn't a fiasco. Fiascos only happen to companies not named Apple. Fanboy Logic 101.

 

[adztaylor]

As much as i wanted to get an iPad in all the hype surrounding it, This is why I'd have waited for Rev.B/C

I live in the UK, so hopefully Apple can get whatever problems fixed by the time its out here However, I think I'll still wait for Rev.B/C

Well the first batches of iPads are arriving in the UK so I'm guessing they're gonna have these problems lol.