Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Early Palm Pre Review: WebOS Off to Great Start But Bad Keyboard
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
I prefer physical keys I like the tactile feedback and hate how the virtual keyboard takes up the screen
My question would be- did you find it great enough to ditch your iPhone completely or it was just a good polished device which is better than iphone in some areas but not enough to let go your iPhone. Palm needs the pre to be great to survive. Marginally better won't really do of for them.
There are all kinds of benefits. The custom keyboards for applications is one too. Some times the input just needs numbers so you get a big numeric keypad that is much easier to use than a micro-touch keyboard.
I honestly am puzzled on why anyone would prefer a hardware keyboard on a handheld device, so much so I think it must just be an issue of operator error on people who prefer the hardware option.
I hate how the hardware keyboard takes up space and weight on my phone and pocket 24x7.
I also don't get the tactile feedback argument. You don't type on a keyboard via tactile feedback. If I give you a keyboard and move the keys .2 inches further apart, you will just be putting your fingers in the same place the keys were before. All you know when you hit a key with tactile feedback is you know you hit A key not which key you hit. You know what key to hit because you learn that by doing it and memorizing it. The same way you use a software keyboard.
Try typing on a projected keyboard instead of a physical desktop keyboard then you can tell me you don't need real feedback.
I think the tactile preference is habit. Not just from typing but from buttons in general on all manner of things. People like what they're used to--and that's fair enough (whether it truly does a lot for typing or not).
Tactile also does let you rest your fingers in a "home" position of your choosing, which can also become a habit.
Me, I'm a speed demon with one index finger, and I LIKE not having physical keys to bump accidentally as I stab away
But that's for TOUCH typing, at full desktop size. Tactile keys ARE a part of touch typing, no question.
But desktop touch typing habits are very different from tiny handheld typing. No tiny keyboard will ever be an ideal match for touch typing on a full-size desktop. Tiny physical keys are one compromise. An intelligent touch keyboard is another.
Also, the iPhone DOES have feedback: tactile (you know you hit the screen--and that's all it takes to trigger), audio (clicks) and clear visual feedback in two places. (Which works well: unlike on a full computer, your typing keys and your display are mere millimeters apart and you can see both at the same time.)
You're being a bit broad with your definition of "feedback" here nagromme
. The iPhone has the equivalent tactile feedback to a banana.Has there ever been any doubt?twoodcc said:
What is the downside of being somewhat short on units on opening day? Versus paying to hold a huge inventory for an extended period of time in the current economy? Sure there will be a few "I have to buy a phone in the next several days or so or I'll explode" folks, but that's no where going to be the majority.
Rather dubious strategy of trying to sell all going to sell in the first 4-5 days. A better strategy is to get very good units in the hands of folks and let the demand build. They will be competing with the iPhone for a long amount of time if successful. If the Pre stops the "bleed" at Spring it will be a winner over the short term. Then they can incrementally move to a more competitive state after that.
Besides a scarcity generates hype in and of itself. Folks selling phones on eBay to make a fast buck ( like XBox, PS2 , etc. ). If you have to go down to a Sprint/BestBuy/RadioShack to play with one .... foot traffic through the store.. retailers hate that.
There is an upside to building up on a base of satisfied users versus some hot "fad". Palm doesn't need a 'what's hot' product they need a solid winner that can compete on merits. Fads dry up. Apple can leverage fads better because there is a cult following that drinks kool-aid like Jim Jones rally that follows them. [ Not that all the customers are looney but there is a lunatic fringe out there with Apple. ]
Finally if Sprint has been selling 100K smartphones in that price class the last 6-7 months then 200K would represent a 100% INCREASE in phones sold.
The Pre is going to sell in one country on the 3rd largest network (in terms of subscribers). Of course the numbers aren't going to be the same as iPhone numbers on opening day. To stockpile the same set of phones are iPhones would be silly. You have to normalize the markets being sold into.
Palm needs a good, relatively problem free (glitches) rollout. Effectively, the whole company is bet on this phone. If they did a quirky, glitched rollout like Apple did last summer they'd be toast. Apple does SNAFU lauches and folks camp out in droves anyway. Seriously, unless you want to go to a circus why does anyone show up on the first couple days of an Apple launch?
Exactly who is postulating the Pre as an iPhone killer. An iPhone competitor sure, but if Palm isn't hyping it as a "killer" why should they have to raise the money, etc. to hype it at a level that they never intended to support. To let external folks dictate the costs of your rollout would bea dumb move.
As they have done it so far seems reasonable.
So that whole year the phone was out and sold a substantive number of units without an apps store was merely a fluke??? The amount of revisionist history on this forum is kind of funny sometimes.
Furthermore, the App store probably sells more apps to Touches than to iPhones.
One of the competitve factors for Pre will be against the other phones on the Sprint network. For those who are for better or worse hooked to the Sprint network the iPhone isn't an option. Where the networks are competitive then the phones are more competitive. There are susbstantive folks who ran out bought iPhones and ATT's network sucks for them. For those folks where the Sprint network works better the Pre is competitive enough.
It is looney to state that the Pre has to exhaustively match feature to feature to the iPhone in order to have a change to be competitive. Some features matter more than other and lots of folks want different groupings of features.
If the Pre comes out on Verizon later in the year... at least you could conceptually take your Pre to another network if wanted to later. Right now there is no end in sight for the ATT binding.
If pre doesn't have a huge user base very soon then it'll prove to be very hard to shift the developer's attention away from iPhone. They needed a huge launch to be any where close to being an iPhone competetion. But it doesn't look like they are headed in the right direction for now. June 6 is just a week away now. Let's see if these miniscule launch rumor is true or not.[/QUOTE]
Because apple's web apps and pre's web OS are completely different! If you don't know what you're talking about then don't post.
You're being a bit broad with your definition of "feedback" here nagromme
Well feedback DOES go beyond tactile
But looking just at tactile, I was serious when I said you know you've hit the screen. For example: think about a tiny physical keyboard with rubbery keys and no obvious click. That's very poor tactile feedback--did you hit hard enough to trigger the press or not? A tactile click is vital to know you've actually hit something (whereas the act of simply touching the key surface does nothing). Then on the other hand there's the iPhone keyboard, which DOES let you know for sure if you hit something or not--you feel your finger hit the glass clearly. So it's actually got better tactile feedback than a bad physical keyboard does. (And I've used some of those ) This is not to deny that a Pre or Blackberry has great tactile feedback of a different (and pleasant) kind. It's just to point out that the iPhone DOES have a lot of useful feedback for typing, and some of that is indeed tactile. (Most is visual or audio.)Not unless the keys are only .2 inches across. If you move the keys less than a key width then you would feel that you just chomped down on two keys at once. You'd instantly know without looking that you had just made a mistake.
With software keyboards you don't. That should be glaringly obvious when most of these small ones come with visual feedback as to which key you are about to press.
There is a huge difference between folks who know how to type without looking at their fingers or at the screen and those who can type and look another source of text (or mutlitask on something else.).
Similarly the initial line up of fingers in proper position. Most desktop keyboards have numbs on 'f' and 'j' so can more easily get into "home row" position with hands without looking.
There is a difference. A huge difference? Perhaps not for many folks.
For folks who aren't touch typing it is much smaller since eyes and fingers are together.
The comments about the keyboards echo my own thoughts when I first tried to type a text message on an iphone in the store... it was a disaster.. even with the feedback effect of the screen. Tiny keys on screen meant frequent misplaced key presses... I hated it.
but you know what... you soon adjust.
Work supplies me with a black berry bold. That has a mediocre keyboard too. Especially when it comes to punctuation and numbers... is it ALT or SHIFT... well that depends on which blackberry model you are using!
I take these comments on the Palm pre's keyboard with a pinch of salt... each to their own. Try it first.
but you know what... you soon adjust.
Work supplies me with a black berry bold. That has a mediocre keyboard too. Especially when it comes to punctuation and numbers... is it ALT or SHIFT... well that depends on which blackberry model you are using!
I take these comments on the Palm pre's keyboard with a pinch of salt... each to their own. Try it first.
I didn't really like the iPod touch's keyboard at first
But then I got used to it. I'm sure people won't ditch this because they can't type super fast for the first week or two
But then I got used to it. I'm sure people won't ditch this because they can't type super fast for the first week or two
I hate the way onscreen keyboards take up most of the display.
Maybe you don't. Or I don't understand what you mean.
Most of us guys over the age of 14 have memorized the keys on every remote control in the house, computer keyboard or gamepad, and every phone.
That is utter drivel -- that's what XML is there for -- defining things, not running them.
Look, anyone who thinks that an interpreted language running on top of a browser engine can in way, shape or form compete with compiled languages like C and Objective C, they are delusional. Until Palm produces a real, NATIVE SDK, (in a year or two, if they are still in business) the Pre will never be able to compete with the iPhone. And of course the iPhone isn't standing still. Over the next 12 months, with iPhone 3.0 I suspect that some extremely sophisticated apps are going to get written.
But it doesn't give you feedback. It doesn't tell you if you've activated something! Just that you've touched the glass. That's tactile with no feedback.
Tactile feedback in this context means the device alerts the user that the interaction between device and user is successful.
Close your eyes and try to do location on a flat, uniform surface. How accurate is that going to be? Most likely less accurate than "too small" keys. Even if the keys are two small will know finger is on two of them. Don't know if you are on any of them on a uniform surface.
Now, given a visual feedback loop, can you toss the tactical one... yeah sure.
Most people learn how to henpeck keyboards, they don't really learn how to type.
If the keyboard is the same size/feel as a treo there are already tons of treo folks who are already conditioned to it.
If it is radically different in size then there would be a problem.
[ and isn't like the Pre doesn't have a touch screen anyway. ]
If you're telling me that I can go pick up and learn XML in and out, and do so as quickly (or nearly so) as I could, say, picking up Objective C or Java, and develop the same level of applications in a similar time frame, in similar environments, than I stand completely corrected.
But if you're saying that XML could someday be that great, than I stand by my original statement. As of right now, a C# or Java programmer can move to Objective C in a shorter period of time, in order to accomplish the kind of tasks they are used to, with an available fleshed out IDE.
I have not personally tried, naturally, to do both. But this is what I read, what I hear, and what I understand to be true. If XML has somehow progressed to the level of ObjC/C#/C++/Java/etc and it's just as easy both programatically and developmentally to create something like Enigmo or Dynolicious, I would love to hear it (or better yet, see examples).
300,000 text messages
For what it's worth some teen girl typed over 30,000 text messages on her iPhone in a month. I type faster on the iPhone than I did on my 2 Palms. So some people do adapt better to the iPhone's keyboard than others.
For what it's worth some teen girl typed over 30,000 text messages on her iPhone in a month. I type faster on the iPhone than I did on my 2 Palms. So some people do adapt better to the iPhone's keyboard than others.