Eddy Cue and Craig Federighi Discuss Bloated Software Accusations, Upcoming iTunes Plans

[John Mcgregor]

Decoupling the OS X release schedule could help, but overall it's not that simple. Again, they're a hardware company so hardware drives everything, which is expected. The root cause of the problem is not realizing the tremendous investment in software development resources to support all the hardware being released - so quality suffers. But also again, the trending mindset of "software is free" is undermining the entire software industry. I go back 28 years and have seen the "do it right"/quality mindset erode starting with the dot com days - quick and dirty to the IPO then cash out became the driving force in those days, and now it has become a series of rapid "2 week sprints" to cram features and just hack/fix the bugs that hurt the most. Just toss a few more offshore 'ants' on the hill to crank out more code features and fixes if you need more speed.... Rapid coding skills have replaced good design in the software employment market - the last interview I had was 6 hours of white board coding problems NO design or architecture problems because no one cares about that anymore. I bet Apple can't even find a qualified software quality expert because they've all walked away from the industry. Get used to poor quality software - from everyone. Quality was sold out for cheap labor via the H-1B corporate profits program.

What make's Apple's situation worse is that TV and watches are "hobbies" for them - so they certainly won't think to invest in the software development infrastructure needed to serve multiple platforms from a common code base.

I was able to get an ATV 4 for a buck via the developer program - and I still feel ripped off We shelved plans to port our games to it due to lack of discoverability features in the App store (this puts marketing costs and risk to high to make supporting the platform a viable business decision) - so now it sits unused.

It worked for them nicely in the past, i don't see why it shouldn't work now. I just hate current cycle. Public beta gets released (GM according to them) then 6 months get bywhile they make it usable and then another 6 months until new version is released and the cycle repeats.

Just horrible.

 

[bob24]

It's really very simple.

4 Separate Apps:

Music:​

• Apple Music, Radio, and Apple Music Store

Video:​

• Movies and TV Shows, and Apple Video Store

Books:​

• Books and PDFS, and Apple Book Store

Podcasts:​

• Podcasts, and Apple Podcast Store

As for the name iTunes, they could simply call it Apple Media Store, for when they are referring to the 4 individually stores.

Also, for iOS, they need to follow the same idea, and get rid of the iTunes app.

P.S can they finally give us the option to edit Movie movie meta? Its quite ridiculous to have to use 3rd party apps like Subler.​

Absolutely agreed. And your proposal would make the OS X apps consistent witht the iOS ones.

 

[matthewhuk]

Both iTunes and the iOS music app are abysmal, let's hope they finally do something decent with it, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[navaira]

I pointed this out before: "My Music", "For You" and "New". Now try and make one guess where to go for Apple Music.

+1 to split into Music, Video, Books and Podcasts + Sync. Call it the iTunes Suite if you must.

 

[MacHiavelli]

I wonder if iTunes is coming to the end of its life, along with OS X.

The march appears to be towards iOS and devices running ARM chips. Will give Apple so much more control over products and a single software-development stream.

Think we are close to seeing a laptop/desktop version of iOS, with apps all built on Swift. If that comes, how much longer will Apple waste time on Intel-driven devices when it can control everything as it wants and needs to? iOS is where the real income is.

I'm meeting a growing number of people who simply no longer need or use Intel-based devices.

 

[sofila]

I would also put a formal cease and desist order on those tired "we're the best" phrases and endless "excited, outstanding, revolutionary, mind-blowing, cool, etc." adjectives that rot the brain.

I do agree with the whole of your post, but this few lines deserve a special marker

 

[arobert3434]

If they were going to talk about software, the subject should have been bugginess, not bloat and slowness.

And if they were going to talk about bloat and slowness, the subject should have been iOS, not iTunes.

In my top ten of "I wish Apple would...", iTunes doesn't even make the list.

 

[emm386]

iTunes on MacOS X is slow, sluggish and...a bit weird. I am always super careful before changing anything, thinking twice before clicking on anything. I don't think this is how it's supposed to be.

iTunes on Windows though is an entirely different story: It's an utter catastrophe... And it has been like that for quite a while now. Slow and Crashy, unpredictable and sometimes erratic bahavior. A plugged-in iPhones being recognized straight away is a bit like gambling in a casino.

At this point, I think it's not fair to blame Windows here, anymore.

 

[arobert3434]

In case Apple isn't sure how it all should work for all the various platforms, they might want to check out this small company called Google. Google Play Music works great, from local music to cloud storage to streaming. Any platform including web.

It's a joy to look at and to use. Google Music Manager "watches" my music folder and if I add anything to it, it automatically puts it in my cloud collection which is then available to me on any device.

Shouldn't it be that easy?

Google Play, the service that assumes if I make a change to the metadata in a song, say to correct a typo in the title or change the genre, that it's a whole new song that needs to be uploaded and tracked separately? So I eventually end up with dozens of songs with multiple copies in my library? And there's no automated way to search for and eliminate these? No thanks.

 

[rctlr]

Splitting the Codebase might be trickier than initially thought, having to support multiple DRM systems, and platforms.

Breaking out the "Apple Music" Streaming and Beats Radio Service needs to be done - stat.

 

[Rogifan]

Since when it's not ok to ask a company about the quality of their products?

Specially when a large portion of customers are complaining about the quality of such products.

I never said it wasn't ok. And "large portion of customers"? What is your source for that? Apple has hundreds of millions of users. Forums like this are a tiny faction of Apple's customer base. If a "large portion" of customers were complaining Apple's sales would be dropping like crazy.

I don't think it is laughable at all to expect at least a teensy tiny "wow" from an interview with Apple executives.

When Steve Jobs spoke in the past, especially on stage, yes, he used doublespeak too; but Jobs always offered some kind of WOW. And at least on a subconscious level, I think the discussions Jobs had with people impact him to the impact his team at Apple. But in this Daring Fireball interview, it was no different than a paid placement ad by Apple. There was zero wow. You got to hear the vocal chords of two Apple executives. That's it.

That's why in my previous post I said that listening to the interview, sadly, was really a waste of my time. Perhaps it was for some of you too. And I for one don't like my time to be wasted. Furthermore, I like Apple. I want some "wow" factor in an interview with them. "We're the best, and we're constantly getting better" is typical of Apple, but it's really stupid to grab that and that alone in an interview and end it there. I'm rather fed up with that kind of response.

Sometimes I fantasize that Apple should hire me to be the thorn-in-the-flesh executive-empowered replacement for Steve Jobs. I doubt I could do as superb a job as he and I may end up with the boot in my fanny like Scott Forestall, but I would surely try to get the "wow" factor back at Apple. And during an interview as a representative of Apple, I would of course protect company secrets, but I would also say something that made any Q&A interview worthwhile for the listener. I would also put a formal cease and desist order on those tired "we're the best" phrases and endless "excited, outstanding, revolutionary, mind-blowing, cool, etc." adjectives that rot the brain. I am wowed by the tech, not words of an eloquent diplomat. That's the daring fireball I'd throw at Apple, with all the vigor I could muster.

I guess I just had different expectations. I didn't download the podcast expecting anything to blow me away. And I know Gruber would never get Apple execs like this is it was an hour long interview grilling them over software issues. I think my opinion of Eddy Cue is well known and I would be perfectly fine if he was demoted or let go. But I like Craig Federighi a lot and I think some of the things I'm enjoying everyday with iOS would never have happened under Forstall (and Jobs). And I think it's a fair question to ask if Apple software quality is really is worse or if it's a case of a lot more people using new software right away coupled with the internet and social media instantly exposing bugs. I'm not arguing that there aren't bugs or that Apple doesn't have issues (they do, especially within Cue's org). I'm just throwing it out there that it might not be worse than 5-10 years ago it just seems worse. Snow Leoppard happened on Jobs watch after all.

 

[Steve121178]

Meeting a growing number of people who simply no longer need or use Intel-based devices.

Who are these people?
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iTunes on MacOS X is slow, sluggish and...a bit weird. I am always super careful before changing anything, thinking twice before clicking on anything. I don't think this is how it's supposed to be.

iTunes on Windows though is an entirely different story: It's an utter catastrophe... And it has been like that for quite a while now. Slow and Crashy, unpredictable and sometimes erratic bahavior. A plugged-in iPhones being recognized straight away is a bit like gambling in a casino.

At this point, I think it's not fair to blame Windows here, anymore.

iTunes has always been a stinking turd of an application on OS X. It's even worse on Windows and that is only because Apple can't be bothered to develop the application properly which is bizarre seeing as it's the front-end to a store that generates so much revenue.

 

[RightMACatU]

a "gradual degradation" in quality

Hands down for me Yahoo! Mail on iOS comes to mind.
Just when you think that they hit rock bottom with speed and feature problems they release a worse version.

 

[American Hero]

Nothing like the two biggest morons at Apple discussing the future.

 

[bbridges]

I moved from iOS to Android because of the increasingly bad performance of iTunes. Never looked back. I still use a Macbook Pro but rarely listen to music on it anymore because starting up iTunes seems like such a commitment. Apple has done a terrible job with it as well as many other apps.

edit: I forgot, I abandoned the mail app a couple of years ago because of repeatedly poor performance and shifted to simply using the gmail web interface. That was a pretty big change for me since I'd used the mail app exclusively for many years. I can't imagine ever going back.

 

[odedia]

I can't believe Eddit Cue gave the example of "someone wanting to keep his bootleg live performance in his Apple Music collection" as a reason to keep iTunes. That's the number one thing that isn't working! Apple stopped using audio fingerprints and started looking only at metadata, therefore causing a lot of local music to get DELETED. That's the worst user experience you could think of. I can't believe John Gruber didn't challenge him on that. Too much Mr. nice guy in this interview.

 

[navaira]

I very quietly hope that when they talk about improved Music app in 9.3 and new iTunes they also mean fixing the idiotic iCloud "matching".

 

[Rogifan]

Nothing like the two biggest morons at Apple discussing the future.

Nothing like some nobody on an internet message board calling someone else a moron.

 

[macduke]

His inside view will last as long as he continues to skip daring questions. He is just another puppet whose main income depends on not hurting Apple's PR machine

He has been posting a lot lately (and even over the past year in the lead-up to iOS 9) about how Apple's software quality has been lacking. I agree that he often gives them a pass, but he does sometimes ask somewhat pointed questions. I think he asked Phil Schiller why Apple was obsessed with making devices thinner instead of giving them more battery life. But he could have pressed harder as Schiller's response was a bit fluffy talking about how it pushes technology forward, etc. He could have pointed out that there needs to be a better balance. He often writes smart pieces and is nearly always right in the end, despite coming off as a smug jerk from time to time. But I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn someday that Apple was secretly slipping him info under the stable—from official sources and not just some "birdie" as he likes to call them. But can you blame him? I'd totally love that gig lol and I bet most people on these forums would kill to have that kind of relationship with Apple.

 

[John Mcgregor]

Nothing like some nobody on an internet message board calling someone else a moron.

Doesn't mean he's wrong.

 

[dk001]

Some metrics are easier to measure than others. If you try to WiFi sync an iOS device and the connection fails, it might not be that easy to tell why it failed. When something crashes, it generates a crash log. Federighi explicitly mentioned in the podcast that the crash rate (of Apple's apps) was lower in iOS 9.0 than in any version of iOS 8. This was thanks to the public beta of iOS which was first offered for iOS 9 which gave them many more crash reports (and other user-provided bug reports) than they got from the developer betas in previous iOS versions.

...

Note that all of the above is referring to software quality. Software design as in user interface and functionality is yet another topic.
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My iTunes library is 450 GB though only about 120 GB of that is audio, the rest is movies and TV shows. And while there can be some slight sluggishness (on a 2012 dual-core laptop), I can hardly call it a very poor piece of software.

Thanks for the response. Not bad however it misses several "points".
There have been ongoing bugs in iOS since the release of iOS 7 and they still continue to visit us.
App crash ... it used to annoy me in iOS 7/8 when I would tap an app and it wouldn't launch finding all too often a corresponding entry in D&U. Now I tap an app / function and nothing happens ... not crash just that the animations precluded my quick tap. It's all relative and great for the developer / Apple SW engineer however the end result for the user is the same: the app didn't launch when tapped.
The benefit of the Apple Public Beta program ... tbd. I really wonder how much was a placebo, a real benefit for fixing issues ahead of time, a cost reduction for Apple, or ... Time will tell. Far too many issues identified early are still alive and well. How much do we really matter to Apple's time line any more? IDK.
AM ... with such a large music collection, let me ask how your album art is doing? Artists who have studio and live album version? Explicit vs. Clean albums? Albums not available in your market however you own? DRM vs. DRM free? Vanishing music? For far too many of us who tried AM (some more than once) and had one, some, or all of these issues plague us. If it is working great for you; awesome. Enjoy it. For the rest of us, we need to see a significant improvement (make that a really serious improvement) before we will even consider trying it again. If we even do.

There is a reason so many of my "stock" apps are not Apple. I'm tired of dealing with repetitive issues / bugs and having to "waste" hours my time fixing things, especially on roll-outs and major updates. When users look for alternatives and continue to develop work-arounds something is being missed by Apple. If they are using metrics to drive improvement, somebody has missed something. Something important.

/end soapbox
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Yeah, they should have thrown beta on there.

Also, can't speak for how he got along with others. I was just saying the maps issue might not have been his fault if it was a data thing.

I've lost track over the years, that for whatever reason the management comes back and gives us (development team) a "this is the launch date!" and doesn't want hear nor really seems to comprehend that it's going live with bugs; maybe a few major bugs.
End User Expectation Management. It's what's missing.
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Y...

Has no one in this forum actually listened to the podcast? Can no one wait to just jump in, bitch and moan? What's wrong with this place?

I did, 2x, and came away with the same outlook each time: "we have problems but pat me on the back and call me great 'cause we have made some really great stuff!"
Kind of sad.

 

[marty1980]

Quick to notice how Apple completely dodged answering directly in regards to the sluggish performance of iTunes and how people are resistant to use it, not because of its features as much as because of its dreadful user experience.

It's nice Apple has given tons of options to keep mobile devices disconnected, but there are still many reasons why people do connect their mobile devices to iTunes.

Apple Music is too focused on the new age of streaming music and keeping music in the cloud. I own plenty of music and buy the music I enjoy. Up until recently my cellular data caps were too low to even consider streaming music as an option. Apple Music actually gets in the way of me getting to My Music, the music I am interested in. There are good things about how they integrated the service but it had negative repercussions for those of us not interested in the monthly subscription service. I use iTunes Match to upload CDs that I purchase; ya know because I go to concerts and get those things signed (& other reasons). I like having just that option and Apple's focus worries me that the reasonable and affordable iTunes Match option will be taken away from me and I'll be forced to either switch to another music player app or pay nearly 10X the money to subscribe to Apple Music just for the Match feature.

I don't think Apple is doing the music thing right and I really don't like the changes made to the music app since the launch of Apple Music.

 

[dk001]

Craig is a pro in this interview. He's polite, funny (as always), and responds honestly to John, whether the question is favorable or unfavorable to Apple. Eddy is exactly what ticks people off about executives: he dodges questions and gives Apple lip service every second he can.

I mean, nothing wrong with liking the company you work for, but if your customers are giving you feedback it's really in your best interest to listen and not just blow it off. It's an interesting point they make that a lot of the supposed quality issues have to do with the scale they're playing at, and it has to be a vocal minority that complains about it (otherwise they wouldn't have literally a billion active devices). But not listening to your customers when they have problems is the quickest way for things to do a 180 and for Apple sales to start dropping every year instead of rising.

I would like to add one thing to this: it's amazing the number of Apple users (even well educated technical users) who accept work-arounds and "it's not quite right" as acceptable functionality just because it's Apple.

 

[Rogifan]

This Medium post is spot on:

https://medium.com/@AlexandraMint/apple-s-elephant-in-the-room-5383a43dc413#.hs2wzbhaw

This is in fact a perception problem, and one that originated from Marco Arment’s blog post over a year ago. A comment on a recent Reddit thread got to the crux of the matter:

There’s a reason why Marco’s “Functional high ground” post took off, it’s because it was vague enough that everyone could project whatever current bug they’re facing on to it.

As the comment noted there were no examples cited, which was a critical factor in it going viral. It suggested an urgency and a sudden onset of this crisis. Apple was great before but now they’ve lost their way.

What’s going on? It’s a little interesting that John Siracusa mentioned that he isn’t seeing anyone disagreeing with the notion of Apple’s declining software quality because he himself completely disagreed with it when Marco’s original post was first published. If you follow enough people on Tech Twitter and listen to enough podcasts, you will begin to see this small and insular group start to say and believe the same things, which eventually leads to their audience coming to believe it as well. This echo chamber phenomenon is what I believe is at the root of this narrative and something John identified.

There is a massive disconnect between the enthusiasts and Apple’s broader customer base on the perception of Apple’s software quality. That is a PR problem for Apple to solve, not a software one.

I quibble with this last paragraph because I do think there are software issues that need attention. It's not all a PR problem. But I don't think it's nearly as bad as the ATP guys would have you believe.

 

[colourfastt]

I would like to add one thing to this: it's amazing the number of Apple users (even well educated technical users) who accept work-arounds and "it's not quite right" as acceptable functionality just because it's Apple.

This doesn't have to do with just iTunes but the entirety of OS X, but I found this in a LinkIn article on Slack: "We’re really conscious of solving problems in a way that doesn’t fetishize the purity of UI design at the expense of the user," says Slack’s design director, Brandon Velestuk ..." (emphasis mine).

Apple could learn a lot about not fetishizing the ecosystem in favor of form over function.