Eddy Cue and Craig Federighi Discuss Bloated Software Accusations, Upcoming iTunes Plans

[69650]

I wish they would standardise the UI across the mobile and desktop apps.

Also, please for heavens sake will you sort out iBooks. Where the hell has Audiobooks gone? I don't want it buried in some menu option. Either make a seperate Audiobooks apps or add to the home screen side by side with books. I've had to switch to the Audible app instead because this made me so angry.

Heaven only knows how Eddie Cue keeps his job. Everything he touches turns to poo. iTunes is getting worse every year not better.

And will somebody please remove the annoying Apple Music promo that covers the screen every single time I open the Music App. I don't want it and don't want to keep getting reminded about. This is so annoying. Half the time I don't even get the option to bypass it and end up having switch my iPhone off and on again to get the options to carry on to my Muisc - you know Apple, the stuff I've paid my hard earned cash to purchase and which now you think I should just ignore.

 

[jwkay]

Also, please for heavens sake will you sort out iBooks. Where the hell has Audiobooks gone? I don't want it buried in some menu option. Either make a seperate Audiobooks apps or add to the home screen side by side with books. I've had to switch to the Audible app instead because this made me so angry..

Agree wholeheartedly. I have a lot of Audiobooks and now play the non-Audible ones through the Audible app, also. The Audiobook player in iBooks is clunky and buggy.

Have you turned off "Show Apple in Music" in Settings? I never see the splash screen here after switching off that option.

 

[djlythium]

Apple's music program iTunes used to be the source of your music. Now it's the source of everything. It wasn't designed to be the source of everything and this is the main dilemma of today's iTunes. The problem with iTunes starts at the top:

"We decided in the short term that what we wanted to do is really make it when you're in music and iTunes, all you see is music," said Cue

This is wrong, on many levels. iTunes, even though its name has tunes in it, showcases ALL of Apple's entertainment. It's the hub of your entertainment, disguised as a music player. It's confusing, illogical, and needs to be redesigned from the ground up.

Most people in this thread discuss chopping things up into different apps. This isn't needed. Apple could, without question, design an easy to use application that meets the needs of the content inside of the current iTunes design.

The problem is Cue and his team. Cue, as I've stated numerous times before, is not the man to get the job done. His previous work shows that he's not good at designing easy-to-use products within the Apple ecosystem. This is a job for Forstall (yes Forstall).

As much as it's cliche to feel the need for Steve Jobs, this is one of those times that his absence is noticeable. Steve was great at taking Apple's poorly designed products, redesigning them, and making them current. Apple doesn't have anyone on their team right now that's able to do that efficiently, except for Ive.

Apple needs to do something, and I'm sure they will, but I have doubts that they'll take the proper route.

Preach.

 

[tdiaz]

Accusations that are dead on.

It's a bloated carcass on a hot steamy day. Plain and simple, they just don't get it.

Real networked storage support is long overdue. Not "Well, it works, (but kind of like a spoiled little brat, pouting, sitting and spinning, dropping things here and there... )"

 

[Rogifan]

Makes you wonder why Craig wasn't given the CEO job in the first place. Of all the executives, he was more professional and able to get the point across.

Federighi wasn't even an SVP when Tim Cook became CEO. There's a lot more to being CEO than being a good interview or demoing something well on stage.
[doublepost=1455478196][/doublepost]

I listened to the entire interview and wasn't impressed. John Gruber is not daring in his interview questions, and they are utter lacking in fire. I remember his video interview with Phil Schiller and it was about the same. No hard hitting questions at all. They're all softballs, and when the replies come (standard Apple replies that even you or me could offer up for what we know about Apple as outsiders), Gruber doesn't really press the issue and moves on to the next question.

Because Gruber wants to get more interviews in the future and that's not going to happen if he's raking them over the coals for a hour. It's laughable for anyone to expect these to be hard hitting interviews. In fact I'm surprised Gruber brought up software quality at all.

 

[vivo]

Not to shamelessly self promote (hey, I do *NOT* make money with Cog, it's a hobby project of mine AND originally created by someone else who put the source open bitbucket, took months of work to make it like this and gave me back a lot of Xcode experience)

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/cog-2016.1947801/

I bet iTunes will never play as many formats as Cog....

 

[TrenttonY]

It's really very simple.

4 Separate Apps:

Music:​

• Apple Music, Radio, and Apple Music Store

Video:​

• Movies and TV Shows, and Apple Video Store

Books:​

• Books and PDFS, and Apple Book Store

Podcasts:​

• Podcasts, and Apple Podcast Store

As for the name iTunes, they could simply call it Apple Media Store, for when they are referring to the 4 individually stores.

Also, for iOS, they need to follow the same idea, and get rid of the iTunes app.

P.S can they finally give us the option to edit Movie movie meta? Its quite ridiculous to have to use 3rd party apps like Subler.​

 

[Pman17]

I hope they improve iTunes for Windows on resolution. They can get it to look nice on their retina displays but not on Windows high res displays.

 

[idunn]

"You've got to start with the customer experience and work backwards to the technology. You can't start with the technology and try and figure out where you're going to sell it.

And I've made this mistake probably more than anybody else in this room, and I've got the scar tissue to prove it. And I know that it is the case.

And as we have tried to come up with a strategy and a vision for Apple, uhm, it started with what incredible benefits can we give to the customer. Where can we take the customer. Not, not starting with let's sit down with the engineers and, and figure out what awesome technology we have and then how are we going to market that. Uhm, and I think that is the right path to take."

Steve Jobs. This from the 'Steve Jobs Insult Response' video, kindly referenced by another in post #373. That quoted begins at the 1:55 mark.​

 

[Apple Corps]

It's really very simple.

4 Separate Apps:

Music:​

• Apple Music, Radio, and Apple Music Store

Video:​

• Movies and TV Shows, and Apple Video Store

Books:​

• Books and PDFS, and Apple Book Store

Podcasts:​

• Podcasts, and Apple Podcast Store

As for the name iTunes, they could simply call it Apple Media Store, for when they are referring to the 4 individually stores.

Also, for iOS, they need to follow the same idea, and get rid of the iTunes app.

P.S can they finally give us the option to edit Movie movie meta? Its quite ridiculous to have to use 3rd party apps like Subler.​

Amen - makes perfect sense. The iTunes name makes no sense with so much other media content at play. It is like they don't want to lose the iTunes "brand" even though it no longer makes sense.

 

[Dominicanyor]

I don't think apple should charge people to listen to music. The many years that I stopped listening to Pandora is because I felt that Apple Music selection was better and free. Now that we have to pay for it I went back to Pandora!!

 

[erinsarah]

I think a great metaphor for the bloat, one of which Steve never would have approved, is the fact that when using Apple Music there's a folder labeled "MY MUSIC" right next to a folder labeled "FOR YOU". So which is it...you or me?

 

[developer13245]

"I would say first there's nothing we care about more,"
That's so trite it's stupid - Federighi has descended to being just a bad hairdo AND a flappy mouthpiece..... Apple is a hardware company - but now it's become painfully obvious that they've compromised software quality to meet hardware shipping demands (iPhone 6s, TV, iPad Pro killed iOS 9 quality). It's just that simple. Too bad they couldn't have spoken honestly about the challenges they face, this was their last chance to restore any credibility with me. They've now completely blown it.

But the funny part is Apple itself has promulgated the "software is free" mentality for years, but now it has come back to hurt them. They've been able to get away with it because they make their bread by selling hardware but have had no regard for how software app vendors survive (or mostly not). Good Fluck with that now. Nice to see your A$$es getting bitten for your own stupid direction.

I've worked as a software engineer for 28 years, and have worked for several hardware companies developing drivers and other hardware related software. I've seen more than a few companies go down the crapper due to neglecting software quality.

Time to abandon Apple platforms....

 

[GoodWheaties]

Makes you wonder why Craig wasn't given the CEO job in the first place. Of all the executives, he was more professional and able to get the point across.

Yeah Craig and even Phil are far and away better speakers than anybody else they usually have on stage. That being said, the doctor they had on stage last year blew both of them away. They should just hire him to do all of their presentations haha

 

[MH01]

"I would say first there's nothing we care about more,"
That's so trite it's stupid - Federighi has descended to being just a bad hairdo AND a flappy mouthpiece..... Apple is a hardware company - but now it's become painfully obvious that they've compromised software quality to meet hardware shipping demands (iPhone 6s, TV, iPad Pro killed iOS 9 quality). It's just that simple. Too bad they couldn't have spoken honestly about the challenges they face, this was their last chance to restore any credibility with me. They've now completely blown it.

But the funny part is Apple itself has promulgated the "software is free" mentality for years, but now it has come back to hurt them. They've been able to get away with it because they make their bread by selling hardware but have had no regard for how software app vendors survive (or mostly not). Good Fluck with that now. Nice to see your A$$es getting bitten for your own stupid direction.

I've worked as a software engineer for 28 years, and have worked for several hardware companies developing drivers and other hardware related software. I've seen more than a few companies go down the crapper due to neglecting software quality.

Time to abandon Apple platforms....

All they need to do is go back two to major software releases being every 2 years. Since snow leopard , the quality of OS X has been dire, and I feel for the apple software developers , they are being pushed to meet unrealistic timeframes. The quality of obvious. When I switched on my Apple TV 4, it looked like the OS was not even ready for beta....

 

[groovyd]

the whole of iTunes really just needs to be integrated with the OS and Finder at a very low level... so for example you can browse your music files just like any other files and they have full album art and context in the same way iTunes shows them. playlists are just folders with symbolic links, etc. in any case Finder needs smart folders that let you add files by rules similar to smart playlists. it really could just be deeply integrated with the finder and OS.

this is what happens when middle and upper mgmt don't know how to take chances and think big. there should have been a project working on this for the past 5 years and ready to release.

 

[natepdx92]

Basically every type of media should have it's own core app: Music, Videos, Photos, iBooks (should be called Books).

This is how I would separate iTunes:
Music App: contains your music library plus Apple Music, Radio, and Music Store.
Video App: contains your Movies & TV shows plus home videos (ect.), and Movie/TV Store

App Store: contains all apps (OS X, iOS, watch, and tv). This is where all apps can be purchased and synced to devices. It would also act as a synth hub for all of your devices.

Also, lighter iCloud web apps should be available for iCloud media such as Music, Videos, and Books. And an Apple Music website for steaming.

 

[JDW]

It's laughable for anyone to expect these to be hard hitting interviews. In fact I'm surprised Gruber brought up software quality at all.

I don't think it is laughable at all to expect at least a teensy tiny "wow" from an interview with Apple executives.

When Steve Jobs spoke in the past, especially on stage, yes, he used doublespeak too; but Jobs always offered some kind of WOW. And at least on a subconscious level, I think the discussions Jobs had with people impact him to the impact his team at Apple. But in this Daring Fireball interview, it was no different than a paid placement ad by Apple. There was zero wow. You got to hear the vocal chords of two Apple executives. That's it.

That's why in my previous post I said that listening to the interview, sadly, was really a waste of my time. Perhaps it was for some of you too. And I for one don't like my time to be wasted. Furthermore, I like Apple. I want some "wow" factor in an interview with them. "We're the best, and we're constantly getting better" is typical of Apple, but it's really stupid to grab that and that alone in an interview and end it there. I'm rather fed up with that kind of response.

Sometimes I fantasize that Apple should hire me to be the thorn-in-the-flesh executive-empowered replacement for Steve Jobs. I doubt I could do as superb a job as he and I may end up with the boot in my fanny like Scott Forestall, but I would surely try to get the "wow" factor back at Apple. And during an interview as a representative of Apple, I would of course protect company secrets, but I would also say something that made any Q&A interview worthwhile for the listener. I would also put a formal cease and desist order on those tired "we're the best" phrases and endless "excited, outstanding, revolutionary, mind-blowing, cool, etc." adjectives that rot the brain. I am wowed by the tech, not words of an eloquent diplomat. That's the daring fireball I'd throw at Apple, with all the vigor I could muster.

 

[kiken]

iTunes was never my first choice when it comes to music players. It copied and tried to reorganize all added music files by default. It was messy and cluttered. When more things were added (like apps and books) it got only worse. Syncing with iOS devices was always a pain.
I really wish those all functions would be separated into different apps and Apple would get some inspiration from other music players and syncing software. Take AirDroid for example - The first minute I used it was obvious what Apple software is missing.

 

[Robstevo]

Disagree. Those aren't the issues. It should be a 1 stop shop for all things music....
It's magazines, videos, video rentals, and tons of other crap in there that needs to go.

No one wants to open 10 apps. And there is no reason you can't even have all the things in iTunes now work better.... but Apple just slaps on more crap and that's where it's become a bloated suckfest. It needs re-written from the ground up..... and they've never really done that.

I personally think it needs to split up into:

Device Manager - Manages all your back ups etc of All your devices, including device set up
etc.

Itunes Store - Place to buy all apps, music, games, movies, books etc

Music App - Simple music interface with only music features.

Video App - Again, a simple app which you can watch and organise all your movies and tv shows.

This way they can create Great, beautiful applications based on what ever content you are looking at.

Instead of rolling it all into what, with different features left right and centre, Which becomes a power hungry, bloated unnecessary mess.

 

[developer13245]

All they need to do is go back two to major software releases being every 2 years. Since snow leopard , the quality of OS X has been dire, and I feel for the apple software developers , they are being pushed to meet unrealistic timeframes. The quality of obvious. When I switched on my Apple TV 4, it looked like the OS was not even ready for beta....

Decoupling the OS X release schedule could help, but overall it's not that simple. Again, they're a hardware company so hardware drives everything, which is expected. The root cause of the problem is not realizing the tremendous investment in software development resources to support all the hardware being released - so quality suffers. But also again, the trending mindset of "software is free" is undermining the entire software industry. I go back 28 years and have seen the "do it right"/quality mindset erode starting with the dot com days - quick and dirty to the IPO then cash out became the driving force in those days, and now it has become a series of rapid "2 week sprints" to cram features and just hack/fix the bugs that hurt the most. Just toss a few more offshore 'ants' on the hill to crank out more code features and fixes if you need more speed.... Rapid coding skills have replaced good design in the software employment market - the last interview I had was 6 hours of white board coding problems NO design or architecture problems because no one cares about that anymore. I bet Apple can't even find a qualified software quality expert because they've all walked away from the industry. Get used to poor quality software - from everyone. Quality was sold out for cheap labor via the H-1B corporate profits program.

What make's Apple's situation worse is that TV and watches are "hobbies" for them - so they certainly won't think to invest in the software development infrastructure needed to serve multiple platforms from a common code base.

I was able to get an ATV 4 for a buck via the developer program - and I still feel ripped off We shelved plans to port our games to it due to lack of discoverability features in the App store (this puts marketing costs and risk to high to make supporting the platform a viable business decision) - so now it sits unused.

 

[pier]

I have actually started to look for a legitimate "iPhoto" replacement for my 5K Retina iMac. Unfortunately, nothing out there (that I have tested so far) works well on my computer, even the latest version of Lightroom is slow on my system.

Lightroom should fly in your 5K iMac.

Have you tried downgrading to a previous version? Latest versions of Adobe software haven't been running so smoothly for me. You can do that via CC. In Find Additional Apps section choose Previous Versions > View Previous Versions.
[doublepost=1455505655][/doublepost]

It's laughable for anyone to expect these to be hard hitting interviews.

Since when it's not ok to ask a company about the quality of their products?

Specially when a large portion of customers are complaining about the quality of such products.

 

[Jax44]

278 comments. 13 people like iTunes.

278 comments, 13 like iTunes, 10 post 265 times that they hate iTunes.

 

[Avenged110]

He's barely competent as software VP. Scott Forstall needs to return and set things straight!

I miss Forstall... #StillRockingiOS6

Despite the near-endless list of issues with the app as a whole, I still feel iTunes 11's UI redesign was actually a fantastic accomplishment. It didn't fix - or really even help - the core issues of iTunes' bloat, but I've always considered it a pretty great bit of UI organization/design. Just wanted to share that ftr because I despise iTunes 12.

 

[MH01]

Decoupling the OS X release schedule could help, but overall it's not that simple. Again, they're a hardware company so hardware drives everything, which is expected. The root cause of the problem is not realizing the tremendous investment in software development resources to support all the hardware being released - so quality suffers. But also again, the trending mindset of "software is free" is undermining the entire software industry. I go back 28 years and have seen the "do it right"/quality mindset erode starting with the dot com days - quick and dirty to the IPO then cash out became the driving force in those days, and now it has become a series of rapid "2 week sprints" to cram features and just hack/fix the bugs that hurt the most. Just toss a few more offshore 'ants' on the hill to crank out more code features and fixes if you need more speed.... Rapid coding skills have replaced good design in the software employment market - the last interview I had was 6 hours of white board coding problems NO design or architecture problems because no one cares about that anymore. I bet Apple can't even find a qualified software quality expert because they've all walked away from the industry. Get used to poor quality software - from everyone. Quality was sold out for cheap labor via the H-1B corporate profits program.

What make's Apple's situation worse is that TV and watches are "hobbies" for them - so they certainly won't think to invest in the software development infrastructure needed to serve multiple platforms from a common code base.

I was able to get an ATV 4 for a buck via the developer program - and I still feel ripped off We shelved plans to port our games to it due to lack of discoverability features in the App store (this puts marketing costs and risk to high to make supporting the platform a viable business decision) - so now it sits unused.

You are spot on, I've only been in software development. About 15 years, and I see how our industry has gone backwards in terms of quality . The do it right / quality mindset has been replaced with quick hacks and attitude of just putting it live, while I like what agile is about, it also introduced so many used car sales man , who don't understand quality, if they had to write just one functional spec they would be found out, they just BS thier way through....