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Replacing the EEPROM on my FireGL X3-256 is something I tought about since the first time I flashed it with the reduced ROM from MacElite but everytime I decided to pospone the job... This because after the initial troubles during first OSX install (greyscale desktop and stuck on intial setup) everything is fine once loaded the ROM extension end ATI Control Panel and also on OS9 the "9200 ROM HotFix" allow the FireGL to correctly handle color depth and monitor resolution (but, of course, no 2D or 3D acceleration).
The OpenFirmware boot selector also is displayed correctly with reduced ROM so could there be other (practical) reasons to want a full ROM? The video card is installed in a FW800 MDD, booting either in OSX or OS9 thanks to OS9Lives! hacks and guides.
 
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I then took the full sized X850XT Mac rom modified its 2 Device ID entries in a hex editor so it worked with the FireGLs Device ID

Would you be willing to share your ROM? I've soldered on a 128k EEPROM and this is the step I'm stuck on.
 
So a few days ago a bunch of new soldering equipment i ordered arrived (mostly for another big project that ill be undertaking once that main part for that arrives) and one of the things i wanted to do with this was solder a larger (128K) ROM chip to my FireGL X3 and flash it with an X850XT ROM for faster speeds.

now as a few know you can flash a X800XT ROM to a FireGL X3 to turn it into a Mac X800XT now you have to flash it with a reduced ROM as the stock EEPROM (ROM chip) is too small to take the full ROM now this works because the X800XT was a retail card and there for ATI included the component that was removed to reduced the ROM as a piece loaded off the HDD as part of their software suit (specify you removed the NDRV to reduce the ROM) Now ATI only included the external NDRV for Cards that where sold via retail. OEM only cards never got an external NDRV and had to rely on the one already in ROM or one Apple placed in the OS. this is why for example there was never a reduced X850XT ROM you can reduce it but without an NDRV things dont work very well (you can end up with the broken grayscale seen sometimes, or your stuck to one screen res and it does not detect your monitor properly and the mouse curser is flickery).


now the way to get around this is to of corse solder on a bigger EEPROM that can take the Full Fcode Mac ROM. so thats what I set out to do. first I needed a larger EEPROM so I decided to use a Radeon 9000 Pro from an MDD for its EEPROM (that i also discovered only saw half its VRAM...) so I took the Card and flashed it with the normal FireGL Reduced rom (as a fail safe a known working firmware) then I Desoldered the EEPROM from it using a 858D SMD rework station/hot air gun then I took the FireGL X3 located its EEPROM (its under the heatsink) and removed its smaller EEPROM (which had a ROM that actually bricked the card but thats another story so by replacing the EEPROM i was also unbricking the card) then i soldered on the bigger EEPROM by placing it on the pads and reflowing it on with the same hot air station.

IMG_0092.jpg


Here is a picture just after reworking the new EEPROM onto the board (the EEPROM is the chip marked U11)

after it cooled I put fresh thermal paste on and put the card back together then put it in my G4 turned it on aanndd Nothing. not one to be defeated I took the card back out took it apart made sure i did not put the EEPROM on the wrong way round. then Took my soldering iron (a digital 936 clone) and touched up the pins put the card back together into the G4 and turned it on... and BINGO it booted up all the way to the desktop woo!

now this was still with the reduced X800XT ROM so I then took the full sized X850XT Mac rom modified its 2 Device ID entries in a hex editor so it worked with the FireGLs Device ID (the same thing was done to the FireGL X800 ROM everyone uses) the I flashed the full ROM and the ATI flasher said it flashed with no problems so i rebooted and moment of truth.... i got a bong and then a Boot screen! and it booted all the way to the desktop. I was ecstatic it was fully functional. i ran open mark and it completed with no issues scoring exactly the same as a real X850XT mac edition so now I have an effective X850XT that works in G4s as well as G5s Woo! :D

IMG_0096_2.jpg


as you can see it fully detects my monitor and it has none of the issues that a reduced Non retail card ROM would have. :) I am very proud of this as this is the first SMD soldering I have ever done (apart from a reflowing a MacBook Pro in an oven :p )

I hope you found this interesting and that it can help others wanting to try the same thing (but do note im not writing this explicitly as a guide more just a write up on how it went for me and what I did)
@LightBulbFun , do you still have this kit?

Could you test to see if either of the DVI ports support Dual-Link DVI resolutions, please?
 
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Would you be willing to share your ROM? I've soldered on a 128k EEPROM and this is the step I'm stuck on.

I used a later then publicly available version of the X850 XT ROM as my base so id like to get permission from the person who gave me the ROM before I share it just out of courtesy

otherwise I should be able to :)


I do wonder what they updated between 108 the latest publicly known version of the X850 XT Mac ROM and 112 the version that was given to me

actually I have a X850 XT True Apple Mac card that was BTO'ed with my 2.7 G5, which has a weak/buggy TMDS transmitter on it, I have never tried the 112 ROM on it I dont think, so thats something for me to try next time I have a G5 out!


apple loves doing this, putting out later versions of BootROMs on late versions of a given machine that they never release as an update for existing macs of the same model, off the top of my head


B08 MacPro2,1 (which added official G0 stepping support and I do wonder if theres a MP1,1 version out there thats been yet to be discovered) B08 MacPro4,1 B06 MacBook5,2, and finally the B09 Xserve3,1 BootROM


one of my iBook G3's has a later BootROM version, from well after the machine ceased production via a logic-board replacement back in the day but I cant recall the exact details on that ill have to go back and check
 
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@LightBulbFun , do you still have this kit?

Could you test to see if either of the DVI ports support Dual-Link DVI resolutions, please?

Dual Link DVI works just fine on the 1 Dual Link DVI port the card has, and the X850 XT's built in NDRV even plays nice as far back as 10.1.5, twas lots of fun seeing that at 2560x1440 :)




the port layout/mapping is identical to that of a Mac X800 XT/X850 XT both have 1 single link DVI port and 1 Dual Link DVI port, in-fact many years ago I read on the strange dog forums that someone saw a prototype X800 XT Mac edition card, and that apparently it was quite clearly based around the FireGL X3, but they never posted any pictures or such sadly
 
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Dual Link DVI works just fine on the 1 Dual Link DVI port the card has, and the X850 XT's built in NDRV even plays nice as far back as 10.1.5, twas lots of fun seeing that at 2560x1440 :)




the port layout/mapping is identical to that of a Mac X800 XT/X850 XT both have 1 single link DVI port and 1 Dual Link DVI port, in-fact many years ago I read on the strange dog forums that someone saw a prototype X800 XT Mac edition card, and that apparently it was quite clearly based around the FireGL X3, but they never posted any pictures or such sadly
Thanks, did you ever try and extract the 'NDRV' from the ATIDriver.bundle for use in older OS's?

Be interesting to see if it works with OS 9........
 
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LightBulbFun, thanks for looking into it. I'm trying to resurrect the fireGL card from that other thread.
 
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Thanks, did you ever try and extract the 'NDRV' from the ATIDriver.bundle for use in older OS's?

Be interesting to see if it works with OS 9........

OEM Apple ATI cards have no OS based NDRV, only in the ROM is the NDRV, only cards which are built into the motherboard have a disk based NDRV provided by apple, but add in cards its all in the 128K ROM

thats why reducing OEM ATI ROMs have never worked well (since to reduce a ROM they would remove the NDRV, which worked on Retail cards since ATI provided a disk based NDRV for them)

although I have wondered if you could extract the NDRV and make your own "ROM Xtender" for reduced ROM Apple OEM ROMs


one interesting side thing I did discover was Apple provided a disk based NDRV for the ATI Radeon 9800 Pro Retail card, I recently got one which I had to flash with the reduced ROM and I was pleasantly surprised to see it works in Leopard without the need for the 4.5.7 update

full monitor control and all, but in 10.2.8 I need the 4.5.7 update for its disk based NDRV to get out of broken greyscale as per normal,
 
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OEM Apple ATI cards have no OS based NDRV, only in the ROM is the NDRV, only cards which are built into the motherboard have a disk based NDRV provided by apple, but add in cards its all in the 128K ROM

thats why reducing OEM ATI ROMs have never worked well (since to reduce a ROM they would remove the NDRV, which worked on Retail cards since ATI provided a disk based NDRV for them)

although I have wondered if you could extract the NDRV and make your own "ROM Xtender" for reduced ROM Apple OEM ROMs


one interesting side thing I did discover was Apple provided a disk based NDRV for the ATI Radeon 9800 Pro Retail card, I recently got one which I had to flash with the reduced ROM and I was pleasantly surprised to see it works in Leopard without the need for the 4.5.7 update

full monitor control and all, but in 10.2.8 I need the 4.5.7 update for its disk based NDRV to get out of broken greyscale as per normal,
The last version of the ATI ROM Xtender for OS X didn't contain an 'NDRV' for the X800/X850XT?

Could you dump the personality of the card, the "compatible" property from the display node?

Tome made a FireGL X3 reduced ROM and it has the ATY,Tracer personality that has support in the Version 1.2.7f2 © 1999-2005 ATI of the ROM Xtender.
 
The last version of the ATI ROM Xtender for OS X didn't contain an 'NDRV' for the X800/X850XT?

Could you dump the personality of the card, the "compatible" property from the display node?

Tome made a FireGL X3 reduced ROM and it has the ATY,Tracer personality that has support in the Version 1.2.7f2 © 1999-2005 ATI of the ROM Xtender.

the ATI ROM Xtender supports the X800 XT, but NOT the X850 XT

the X800 XT was an ATI "Mac Edition" Retail card fully supported by ATI

but the X850 XT was an Apple OEM Early 05 G5 BTO option, (which is why its so rare) which was not supported by ATI


the X850 XT's personality is ATY,Piranha :) (the Retail X800 XT was ATY,Tracer)


one of the interesting things is the Mac X800 XT and X850 XT's have the same, but unique Device ID's to other X800 XT/X850 XTs and it was struck off the PCI Device ID register as "unreleased" LOL

ahh the ignorance of the PC people to the world of Mac!

ill have to double check as its been a long while but I think its 4a48
 
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Would you be willing to share your ROM? I've soldered on a 128k EEPROM and this is the step I'm stuck on.

alright I got a release on the ROM, so I have included not only my device ID edited version for the FireGL X3, but also the original untouched version for people (@DearthnVader ) to play with

many thanks to Surrat for providing the base X850 XT ROM to me over 8 years ago now! (blimey!)

hopefully it works well for you :)
 

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Now to disable pins 3 and 11 to see if I can get OS 9 goodness @2560x1600....

My card was Samsung VRAM so I can't work on the issue with other VRAM, but I did use the 68k reduced ROM for the FireGL X3 linked on The Mac Elite Wiki and it works just fine in Tiger with the latest ATi ROM Xtender.
 

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Now to disable pins 3 and 11 to see if I can get OS 9 goodness @2560x1600....

My card was Samsung VRAM so I can't work on the issue with other VRAM, but I did use the 68k reduced ROM for the FireGL X3 linked on The Mac Elite Wiki and it works just fine in Tiger with the latest ATi ROM Xtender.
glad to see its all working well for you as it should :) what PowerMac G4 do you plan to install it in? remember that in the DA/Quicksilver its a bit of a crap shoot if FireGL X3 works or not, just giving the heads up so you dont end up chasing your tail wondering why it does not work



funnily enough although I have never tested the card in Mac OS 9.2.2

I did confirm the X850 XT ROM and its built in NDRV does work Mac OS 8.6 LOL, which was quite impressive as the Mac OS 8.6's ROM image is quite picky about which display devices it will work with, but full ATI ROM's have often had good legacy support, (which further leads me to wonder if you could run a Radeon 9800 or such in an old world machine with a PCI to AGP bridge? or a Radeon X1900 in a PCI to PCIe bridge but I digress)

this was before I got the Atlona AT-DP400 from @Amethyst1 so I was never able to test the dual link capabilities of it

I also recall that in Mac OS 8.6 for whatever reason I only had 1 resolution option available to me

so it will be interesting to see what results you get with 9.2.2
 
LightBulbFun, thanks for posting that ROM! I loaded it onto the EEPROM and the card boots/works but still has artifacts as before, so I suppose there is a hardware problem. The card may be damaged or maybe it has defects that a full 850XT doesn't. Is there an easy way to disable parts of the GPU in the ROM (i.e. 850 vs 800)?
 
what PowerMac G4 do you plan to install it in? remember that in the DA/Quicksilver its a bit of a crap shoot if FireGL X3 works or not, just giving the heads up so you dont end up chasing your tail wondering why it does not work
I have a G5 sp 1.6Ghz I used to flash and test the card, a MDD dual 867Mhz, a few QuickSilvers to also test in to see if I can figure the issues with the QS.

Just waiting on an exacto knife to do the tape mod on pins 3 and 11.....
 
Maybe @joevt or someone knows how to dump a specific property with ioreg?

I'd like to dump the 'NDRV' from the Piranha ROM, so the driver,AAPL,MacOS,PowerPC property from the ioreg in hex.
 
LightBulbFun, thanks for posting that ROM! I loaded it onto the EEPROM and the card boots/works but still has artifacts as before, so I suppose there is a hardware problem. The card may be damaged or maybe it has defects that a full 850XT doesn't. Is there an easy way to disable parts of the GPU in the ROM (i.e. 850 vs 800)?

glad to hear that it works as it should

im guessing this is the same FireGL X3 from this thread?


as explained in that thread, the FireGL X3 is a dressed up X800 Pro, rather then an X800 XT (this is why its OpenGL Render engine reports an X800 Pro)

but the Mac ROM enables all of the units on the cards die, however on some FireGL X3's these units are defective, and thus you get artefacting

I suspect that sadly you FireGL X3 is one of those which have defective units defective (the X800 XT and X850 XT have identical amounts of units the only real difference between the 2 is clock speeds)

if you want to verify this Id flash the FireGL X3 back to its PC ROM and test it in an AGP PC, and see if you do or dont still have artefacts
 
I have a G5 sp 1.6Ghz I used to flash and test the card, a MDD dual 867Mhz, a few QuickSilvers to also test in to see if I can figure the issues with the QS.
as I understand the issue with the DA/QS was due to a bug/possible race condition in the AGP implantation of the Uninoth 1.5 chipset

it was a real PITA for ATI as it affected the Radeon 9600 PC and Mac edition card and in the end ATI had to pull support for those machines

this same bug also effects some via AGP chipsets as well


I dont currently know what makes a combination work, in that for example im very lucky in that my FireGL X3 works with both my DA and QS, but I dont know if thats because the FireGL X3 is a Lucky card that works with all DA/QS's or I have 2 lucky machines that work with all FireGL X3's, if that makes sense


what I do know is that @eyoungren got a FireGL X3. 2 of them in fact IIRC from the exact same seller as I did, and neither would work in his QS

(and thats how we first learnt of the bug)

so yeah quite curious
 
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what I do know is that @eyoungren got a FireGL X3. 2 of them in fact IIRC from the exact same seller as I did, and neither would work in his QS

(and thats how we first learnt of the bug)

so yeah quite curious
One other variable with my QS was that I was using a Sonnet processor. I don't know if that makes a difference or not, but it came with a 1.4Ghz Sonnet so had already had it's firmware flashed. I never had an original stock processor for it.

The funny thing was the the eBay vendor had been selling them as compatible for the QS, then shortly after that noted that it might not actually work in a QS, then after THAT noted they weren't compatible.

All of that happening after the purchase of the two. @LightBulbFun note that it DOES work in my 2.7 DP G5. :) I only needed to wait about three or four years before getting that G5 so I could test it out. :D

Confirming that the X3 wouldn't work on one SINGLE model of G4 though involved a lot of internet searches.
 
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@LightBulbFun Works with OS 9 just fine.........^

Sadly the fan on the X3 doesn't work, somebody let me know if they have a bad card with a good fan or an aftermarket cooler for an X3 like the Zalman VF700-CU Ultra Quiet VGA Cooler?

Seems someone would still make coolers for these old AGP cards as fans all tend to die after a while, but I can't find one in stock anywhere.
 
very awesome to see it worked! what did you do NDRV wise out of curiosity?

ill have to dig up my FireGL X3 with its X850 XT ROM and see how it plays for me and my monitor etc :)

My 800Mhz QuickSilver works just fine, I also have a few 733Mhz and one 867mhz education model without the L3 cache I can test with.

Sadly the Uni North checker someone wrote doesn't seem to work with Tiger?
very awesome to hear it works in your 800Mhz QS, thats a rare thing!, indeed it would be quite interesting to see how the same card plays in all of your Uninorth 1.5 machines
which would hopefully give us some clues as to if its the Lucky card or the lucky machine

you can check the Uninorth sub revision with CHUD Tools, but thats not the issue here, it plagues all Uninorth 1.5 machines
 
you can check the Uninorth sub revision with CHUD Tools, but thats not the issue here, it plagues all Uninorth 1.5 machines


If you could give me some instructions on how to do that? or does it just report 1.5?


very awesome to see it worked! what did you do NDRV wise out of curiosity?
It's the ATY,Tracer 'NDRV' from the X800, I had an older ATI ROM XTender installed in OS 9 from the latest one that came with ATI Displays with the OpenGL overrides from OS X( that's the latest version I know of (( Version 1.2.7f2 © 1999-2005)))

If you look at the 2nd screenshot the actual 'NDRV' version contained in the ATI ROM Extender I used was 1.0.1f39. All 'NDRV's have a version and date encoded into them. With Panther if the 'NDRV' is older than some set date it won't be used for OS X without a kernel argument to use the old 'NDRV'. This kernel argument has no effect on Tiger and later, you must have a ROM or disk based 'NDRV' newer than that date or you'll never reach the desktop.

I can't say the ATY,Tracer 'NDRV' in Version 1.2.7f2 © 1999-2005 is newer than 1.0.1f39, but I'll check when I do the other testing in the other QS's. A newer 'NDRV' would contain bug fixes, but they were never tested with OS 9, so it can be hit or miss if and how well it works with OS 9 as ATI only cared if they worked with OS X as all these cards were sold as OS X only.

When I "made" the 'NDRV' for the Mac Mini and a few other OS X only machines to work with OS 9 I had to test many versions of the OS X 'NDRV's to find the one that worked best with OS 9. Oddly for the Radeon 9200 I had to use the oldest 'NDRV' that the Mini shipped with, the one from 10.3.7, none of the others worked, just a grey screen instead of a desktop. However my iBook G4 with the R9550M works just fine under OS 9 and that is the one from 10.5.7.

Also the 'NDRV' I made for the R9600 seems to work with the R9700M so they share the same profile .name.

I can fix the "Unknown ATI Graphics" in the ATI Displays Control Panel for OS 9, and that unlocks the window for 3D so you can see how much VRAM is in use for Desktop 2D, Z-buffer, and 3D. Won't help with 3D on our FireGL's, but we should be able to see how much VRAM we are using to drive any displays we have connected.

It maybe a while before I get around to testing the other QS's( so many hacks, so little time ), but I'll report back when I do.
 
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@LightBulbFun Also I have a 65" Samsung TU7000 that supports 3840 x 2160 4k UHD, so the X3 and the R9600 Mac/PC support 330mHz pixel clock on Dual-Link DVI which should be 3840 x 2160 @30Hz👍

If I can find a Dual-link DVI to HDMI cable that will support that much bandwidth I should be able to test this.........
 
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