EEPROM replacement and flashing X850 XT ROM on FireGL X3

[Amethyst1]

Also I have a 65" Samsung TU7000 that supports 3840 x 2160 4k UHD, so the X3 and the R9600 Mac/PC support 330mHz pixel clock on Dual-Link DVI which should be 3840 x 2160 @30Hz👍

4K30 requires 262.75 MHz pixel clock using CVT-RB timings.

If I can find a Dual-link DVI to HDMI cable that will support that much bandwidth I should be able to test this.........

Those don’t exist. HDMI stays single-link over 165 MHz pixel clock.

You need to go from dual-link DVI to DisplayPort first and then from DisplayPort to HDMI, using active converters in both cases.

 

[joevt]

You need to go from dual-link DVI to DisplayPort first and then from DisplayPort to HDMI, using active converters in both cases.

I've used Gefen Dual Link DVI to Mini DisplayPort Converter
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...l_Link_DVI_to_Mini_DisplayPort_Converter.html
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...an-early-intel-recently.2285317/post-29773630
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/gpu-compatibility-list-for-cmp.2174600/post-29151967

 

[LightBulbFun]

If you could give me some instructions on how to do that? or does it just report 1.5?

hwprefs memctl_type

hwprefs ioctl_type

with chud tools installed, those commands will spit-out the north and south bridge versions

both the main version and the "stepping"

 

[DearthnVader]

Those don’t exist. HDMI stays single-link over 165 MHz pixel clock.

Do you know why that is?

 

[DearthnVader]

I've used Gefen Dual Link DVI to Mini DisplayPort Converter
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...l_Link_DVI_to_Mini_DisplayPort_Converter.html
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...an-early-intel-recently.2285317/post-29773630
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/gpu-compatibility-list-for-cmp.2174600/post-29151967

Pricey, I don't think I want to put out that kind of money for this experiment, but thanks for the heads up.

It seems they only support Resolutions up to 2560x1600.

 

[DearthnVader]

hwprefs memctl_type

hwprefs ioctl_type

with chud tools installed, those commands will spit-out the north and south bridge versions

both the main version and the "stepping"

Will the stepping be different, so we can try and figure what QS's Uni-North has the AGP race condition bug?

 

[Amethyst1]

It seems they only support Resolutions up to 2560x1600.

I’ve tested the Atlona AT-DP400 to handle pixel clocks up to about 267 MHz, which is enough for 3840×2160 at 30 Hz (but not for 2560×1600 at 60 Hz).

 

[DearthnVader]

I’ve tested the Atlona AT-DP400 to handle pixel clocks up to about 267 MHz, which is enough for 3840×2160 at 30 Hz (but not for 2560×1600 at 60 Hz).

Looks like I can get one fo $60 used on Ebay, I may go for that, and link for the DP to HDMI adapter I would need?

Did you need to use SwitchRes to get proper output?

 

[Amethyst1]

Looks like I can get one fo $60 used on Ebay, I may go for that, and link for the DP to HDMI adapter I would need?

IIRC I paid like 30 euros for mine…

As for an active (it must be active!) DisplayPort to HDMI adapter to daisy-chain, I’d try getting one that draws power from an external source since I don’t know whether the Atlona supplies power via its DisplayPort output. Daisy-chaining an adapter with an external power source worked for me (but my adapter couldn’t handle 4K).

Did you need to use SwitchRes to get proper output?

No. 4K30 worked OOTB from the Atlona’s DisplayPort output.

 

[DearthnVader]

The QS 733 seem to work with the X3 as well( UniNorth 1.5 v1 / KeyLargo V3 ).

How can I test for the race condition, does the card just not work at all, or is there something specific I should look for or test with.

I tested core image via widgets and 3D via Quake 3, but just a real quick test as my hacked fan doesn't cool very well.

@LightBulbFun

 

[Amethyst1]

Do you know why that is?

This is just a hypothesis: Maybe because of pixel clock restrictions TMDS transmitters were subject to back when DVI was state of the art... By the time HDMI 1.3 was introduced in 2006, they'd figured out how to run 340 MHz pixel clock over a single TMDS link.

If you're not going to go down the daisy-chaining multiple adapters route, you can try pushing 3840×2160 at 18.9 Hz over single-link DVI and a DVI-to-HDMI cable. This requires a 164.5 MHz pixel clock using CVT-RB timings, just below the 165 MHz limit.

It's worth noting that OS X will delightfully push 3840×2160 at 30 Hz over a single-link connection but the image will be unusable as the second TMDS link is missing.

 

[LightBulbFun]

Will the stepping be different, so we can try and figure what QS's Uni-North has the AGP race condition bug?

The QS 733 seem to work with the X3 as well( UniNorth 1.5 v1 / KeyLargo V3 ).

How can I test for the race condition, does the card just not work at all, or is there something specific I should look for or test with.

I tested core image via widgets and 3D via Quake 3, but just a real quick test as my hacked fan doesn't cool very well.

@LightBulbFun

its not a stepping issue, as the bug affects Both DA's and QS's of all revisions


the big question that is yet to bet answered is when a card DOES work with a DA/QS

is it the card that is friendly to the machine, (ie its a friendly FireGL X3 that will work in any machine) or is it the machine thats friendly to the card (ie a machine that will work with any FireGL X3)


based on your findings and my findings and findings of the past, it sounds like its the card which the magic lies, as it seems both your card and my card work in all the DA's and QS's we have tested no matter the config

yet @eyoungren and @bunnspecial have FireGL X3's which work in no DA/QS (with @bunnspecial trying his card in 3 DA's and 2 QS's with no luck!)



(when the card does NOT work in DA/QS it simply does show up to the system for love nor money, its like not installed, although again I have not been able to personally poke at this with a stick so to speak)


heres the thread from when we first all found this out the hard way! (please excuse my poor quality of posts from back then!)

ATI fireGL X3 NOS on ebay

while I was browsing eBay for graphics cards to flash for one of my G4s I came across this http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATI-FireGL-X3-256-256MB-GDDR3-AGP-4X-8X-Dual-DVI-Video-Card-w-Stereo-3D-Output-/371194233061?pt=PCC_Video_TV_Cards&hash=item566ce680e5 and as some of you guys know the ATI fireGL X3...

forums.macrumors.com

BTW @DearthnVader I think there is an Infineon VRAM PC ROM dump here

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/ati-firegl-x3-nos-on-ebay.1840152/page-5?post=30741943#post-30741943

 

[eyoungren]

(when the card does NOT work in DA/QS it simply does show up to the system for love nor money, its like not installed, although again I have not been able to personally poke at this with a stick so to speak)

I tried two X3s, because I thought possibly the first one might be a dud. No luck.

With my QS absolutely nothing happens. Tape the pins, install the card, hook up additional Molex power and press the button.

Nothing. No chime, no click, no sounds at all, no power, no life, dead as a doornail…zip, nada. You can replicate this condition exactly even if you don't own the card. Simply unplug your computer and attempt to turn it on. Same condition.

Remove the card, bam - QS is alive.

I also thought, possibly it might be the CPU, so I even tried the damn thing with the old Sonnet 1.4 in it. Nothing happened. So, at least with my QS. all an X3 card will do is make the computer not work at all.

If it showed up or not to the system, I wouldn't have known because the computer wouldn't start.

 

[joevt]

Do you know why that is?

I'm not sure what you're asking. If you're asking why HDMI stays single-link over 165 MHz pixel clock, the answer is because the normal HDMI connector doesn't have pins for dual link. There's specs for a HDMI dual link connector, but I don't know of anything that uses it, and it won't help if your display is not HDMI dual link.

If you're asking why no-one makes a HDMI to Dual Link DVI adapter, then that's a different question.

you can try pushing 3840×2160 at 18.9 Hz over single-link DVI and a DVI-to-HDMI cable.

Some displays have a minimum refresh rate that might be too high for 19Hz. I have a display with 20Hz minimum refresh rate. Your IBM Big Bertha can do 10Hz which is the lowest I've seen.

 

[DearthnVader]

I'm not sure what you're asking. If you're asking why HDMI stays single-link over 165 MHz pixel clock, the answer is because the normal HDMI connector doesn't have pins for dual link. There's specs for a HDMI dual link connector, but I don't know of anything that uses it, and it won't help if your display is not HDMI dual link.

How then is HDMI able to drive the display at 4k 60Hz?

Is it just that DVI needs the display to "advertise" dual-link and HDMI cables don't include the pins?

So confusing.......

 

[Amethyst1]

How then is HDMI able to drive the display at 4k 60Hz?

HDMI 2.0/2.1 can handle the required pixel clock (>500 MHz) using single-link.

 

[joevt]

How then is HDMI able to drive the display at 4k 60Hz?

Is it just that DVI needs the display to "advertise" dual-link and HDMI cables don't include the pins?

So confusing.......

Single Link DVI is normally limited to 165Hz.
Some newer DVI connectors (e.g. on PC motherboards Z170...) are actually just HDMI 1.4 ports which can do single link up to 340Hz.

Dual Link DVI uses double the pins to reach 330Hz. Each set is running 165Hz but there's two sets of pins so it can output pixels at 330Hz.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort

Single Link DVI and Dual Link DVI use the same connector, but many pins are unconnected in Single Link DVI.

The normal HDMI connector is Single Link. It doesn't have room for Dual Link. Dual Link HDMI (which probably doesn't exist) is a wider connector with more pins. Dual Link HDMI doesn't matter since HDMI 2.0 can do 600MHz (or 1200MHz with 4:2:0) and HDMI 2.1 can do much more than that (1778MHz or 5333MHz with DSC).

 

[DearthnVader]

Single Link DVI is normally limited to 165Hz.
Some newer DVI connectors (e.g. on PC motherboards Z170...) are actually just HDMI 1.4 ports which can do single link up to 340Hz.

Dual Link DVI uses double the pins to reach 330Hz. Each set is running 165Hz but there's two sets of pins so it can output pixels at 330Hz.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort

Single Link DVI and Dual Link DVI use the same connector, but many pins are unconnected in Single Link DVI.

The normal HDMI connector is Single Link. It doesn't have room for Dual Link. Dual Link HDMI (which probably doesn't exist) is a wider connector with more pins. Dual Link HDMI doesn't matter since HDMI 2.0 can do 600MHz (or 1200MHz with 4:2:0) and HDMI 2.1 can do much more than that (1778MHz or 5333MHz with DSC).

I'm just more confused than I was before!

Will this cable not work to go from a Dual-Link DVI graphics card to an HDMI 1.4 TV UHD / 3840 x 2160 @ 30Hz?

Club 3D CAC-1210 Cable DVI Male to HDMI Male 1.4 2 m Black

CAC-1210 - The Club 3D CAC-1210 is a DVI to HDM 1.4 adapter cable. Since this adapter cable is fully bi-directional, it can also be used as an HDMI to DVI adapter cable. The CAC-1210 cable is the simplest solution to connect your HDMI monitor, projector or TV to the DVI output of your PC/notebook...

www.amazon.com

About this item​

---

Product details​

CAC-1210 - The Club 3D CAC-1210 is a DVI to HDMI™ 1.4 Adapter Cable. Because this Adapter Cable is fully Bi-Directional, it can also be used as a HDMI™ to DVI Adapter Cable. This CAC-1210 Cable is the easiest solution for connecting your HDMI™ Monitor, Projector or Television to the DVI output of your PC / Notebook or to connect your DVI Monitor, Projector or Television to the HDMI™ output of your PC / Notebook / Game Console. The CAC-1210 uses premium components and gold plated contacts to ensure the highest performance and maximum ease of use resulting in the best user experience with resolutions up to UHD / 3840 x 2160 @ 30Hz.

Key Selling Points

• Compliant to HMDI™ 1.4 Specification
• Compliant to DVI-D Dual Link specification
• Supports resolutions up to UHD / 3840 x 2160 @ 30Hz
• Fully Bidirectional
• No external power needed
• Plug & Play

CAC-1210

 

[Amethyst1]

Will this cable not work to go from a Dual-Link DVI graphics card to an HDMI 1.4 TV UHD / 3840 x 2160 @ 30Hz?

Since it doesn't have a 29-pin dual-link HDMI port, I don't see how that could work. It can only work when the "DVI" port on the GPU is actually a HDMI 1.3/1.4 port and can do >165 MHz pixel clock via single-link.

 

[joevt]

I'm just more confused than I was before!

Will this cable not work to go from a Dual-Link DVI graphics card to an HDMI 1.4 TV UHD / 3840 x 2160 @ 30Hz?

Club 3D CAC-1210 Cable DVI Male to HDMI Male 1.4 2 m Black

CAC-1210 - The Club 3D CAC-1210 is a DVI to HDM 1.4 adapter cable. Since this adapter cable is fully bi-directional, it can also be used as an HDMI to DVI adapter cable. The CAC-1210 cable is the simplest solution to connect your HDMI monitor, projector or TV to the DVI output of your PC/notebook...

www.amazon.com

That cable can do single link up to 340MHz (HDMI 1.4) but DVI ports of old graphics cards usually can't do single link > 165MHz.
The CAC-1210 is probably single link on the DVI side because it is bidirectional (so single link on both sides - DVI and HDMI - since HDMI can't be dual link).
dual link conversion to single link cannot be bidirectional.

You need dual link on the GPU side because the GPU is old and cannot do single link at the required pixel clocks (≈258-297MHz for 4K30, ≈269MHz for 2560x1600@60Hz)
You need single link on the display side because HDMI is always single link.
Since there exists no dual link DVI to single link HDMI converter > 165MHz, you need to use something like the Gefen to go from dual link DVI to DisplayPort. Then you can go from DisplayPort to anything you like, such as single link HDMI.

 

[Amethyst1]

The CAC-1210 is probably single link on the DVI side […]

Yeah. Yet they misleadingly mention dual-link DVI and use a fully populated DVI connector…

 

[DearthnVader]

Yeah. Yet they misleadingly mention dual-link DVI and use a fully populated DVI connector…

So you think, or know, it's just them being purposely misleading?

That the mentioned max resolution would only work going from a HDMI 1.4/+ source to a Dual-Link DVI display of some sort?

 

[Amethyst1]

So you think, or know, it's just them being purposely misleading?

It’s definitely strange that they’re emphasising the “dual-link” bit.

That the mentioned max resolution would only work going from a HDMI 1.4/+ source to a Dual-Link DVI display of some sort?

That cable will do 4K30 when going from a HDMI 1.3/1.4 source to a HDMI 1.3/1.4 display.

It won’t work if the source, display or both use/require dual-link DVI for that resolution (i.e. for pixel clocks higher than 165 MHz). The result in that case will be similar to this.

 

[DearthnVader]

It’s definitely strange that they’re emphasising the “dual-link” bit.


That cable will do 4K30 when going from a HDMI 1.3/1.4 source to a HDMI 1.3/1.4 display.

It won’t work if the source, display or both use/require dual-link DVI for that resolution (i.e. for pixel clocks higher than 165 MHz). The result in that case will be similar to this.

I'm just even more confused than I was when we started, it's not you, it's me.

I can get that cable for $12 new from a Wal-Mart co-seller, I suppose I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and test it for myself. I have a RX580 the drives my ye olde Apple 30" Cinema Display, a flashed FireGL X3 that drives that display on the Dual-Link port and a Mac/PC Edition R9600 that should be delivered today NIB NOS.

I'll get to the bottom of this for sure!

 

[joevt]

Yeah. Yet they misleadingly mention dual-link DVI and use a fully populated DVI connector…

Maybe Dual link DVI is a spec that includes single link DVI - like how the HDMI 2.1 spec includes HDMI 2.0 so people can call HDMI 2.0 cables HDMI 2.1 even though HDMI 2.0 cables are limited to 18Gbps.

So this cable is compatible with dual link DVI - you can connect it to a dual link DVI connector or cable, but it can't transmit dual link DVI - only single link.

HDMI uses the same pins and signals as single link DVI so there's no converter chip and the cable is bidirectional. HDMI is just single link DVI with a new connector. If there was a converter chip then the cable would cost more than $12 and it wouldn't be bidirectional.