EFiX Allows Mac OS X to Boot on a PC

[Harun]

Condition

Maybe de-evolution at work. Apple has a product that people want - OS X. They only want to sell it under certain conditions. They created it. They invested in it. Why do people feel they have a right to steal it just because Apple doesn't sell it under the conditions they want?

Because regardless of current law many people feel the only "conditions" a party should be able to put on a sale is price. You buy OS X for the market price and the rest isn't any of Apple's business.

Interesting to see which way that one will go in court.

 

[williedigital]

Hmm, I think I'll keep an eye out for used Mac Pros on Ebay that are being sold as "parts only". If I stay on top of it and know what I am doing (probably won't and probably do), then I might be able to pull this off....

this will last until I replace my current machine, anyway.

Andy

Just a quick rundown (I tried to include shipping as best I could):
Motherboard- $259 (purchased from ebay as "untested" and works fine)
CPU's- $475 (two E5310 clovertowns that I BSEL modded to run at 2.0, stable)
Heatsinks- $45
RAM- $90 (kingston 6400 ram 2X1GB sticks)
Power Supply- $210 (from ebay I think. You HAVE to use apple PS, otherwise would be much cheaper)
Case- $128 from ebay. included all wiring but no front panel.
Video- $60 from ebay. someone selling their original 7600 video card
Memory riser- $90 from mac-pro.com
Front panel for case- $25 from ebay
Superdrive-$40
Harddrive-$65
Drive sleds- $80 frustratingly.

Total of $1596 for an 8-core X 2.0 ghz, 2GB, 500GB machine running OSX legally (I think?). It was less for me since I already had most of the non-apple parts handy from old builds and was happy to re-use them. Keep in mind that you may not be as lucky to find the motherboard deal I did, or may be uncomfortable overclocking, etc. Also, this is technically a first generation mac pro running a configuration that apple never released, but it works for me. If you're starting from scratch, I think it would be best probably to just buy a low-config first-gen mac pro for as cheap as possible and upgrade the cpu's to bsel clovertowns. Or just save a little longer for the real deal. I frankly went beyond what I was planing to spend due to the absolute requirement of using apple-supplied power supplies and drive sleds.

 

[Marx55]

MS had not developed anything much themselves at that stage, even DOS was purchased (or shall we say one version of DOS was).

Actually, DOS was stolen... Check out:

http://www.mackido.com/History/index.html

SHOCKING!

 

[BenRoethig]

Then OSX will run into the same compatibility problems that Windows run into & Apple will just turn like Microsoft. Not a lot of people would want that. I hope. !!!!

Can we please move past this decade out of date myth please?

1. Apple does not use custom hardware anymore, they use stuff from intel. That means the drivers for Apple's stuff will also work with stuff from Dell and HP.

2. The PC world took a paige from Apple a couple and moved to chipsets families. Less R&D, less work on drivers. You also see a grand total of three companies making chipsets. SIS and VIA are effectively out of the picture First party stuff from Intel and AMD and third party stuff from Nvidia. You don't see four of five different chipsets being used anymore and with Core I7 and quickpath there will not be anymore third party chipsets on the intel side.

 

[daveporter]

I doubt Mac people are going to suddenly realize they can get a cheaper, unsupported option and jump ship from a company they're loyal to.

Really, have you not read any of the comments on these many pages here? Most of those posting support for this are people that have Macs now and are ready to "jump ship" to save a buck. Mighty short-sighted folks.

You are also missing one important point, the market share increase that Apple is now enjoying is due to PC folks moving to the Macintosh for the first time (like me). Had there been a cheep alternative available to me that worked with little effort or risk don't you think I may have gone that way. I don't think its a great idea to provide non-Mac users the opportunity to settle for a cheap MAC clone since they don't know the differences that those that have been MAC users for a long period know. My point is that this type of device could slow the increase in market share that Apple is now enjoying. An increase in market share is good for all of us since it will lead to lower costs for equipment eventually, more diversity in product lines (since there will be more diversity in demand with more customers) and more R&D money for Apple to innovate with.

Just think this trough carefully before you support this idea.

 

[milo]

As far as I can tell, it does in hardware what others do in software. The way Mac OS X works on other computers is by emulation EFI which is an open standard by the way. I would assume this thing comes with an EFI firmware chip of some sort.

But is Apple using a vanilla version of EFI, or do they have something proprietary (and patentable/copyrightable) as well?

I suspect it isn't just the same as the EFI open standard, otherwise once all PCs start using EFI, they'd all be able to just install OSX.

WHy would anyone compare the iMac specs to laptop specs?

Because the iMac uses a laptop CPU and other laptop parts. It could be better, cheaper, or both if it used desktop parts.

A picture is worth thousand words.

Ironically, my mini looks just as bad as that PC since there's no internal expansion and I have to add things with wires just like that.

Actually, it's more like:

"Damn, the webcam isn't working. I'll make an appointment at the Apple Store and come home with a replacement."

Really, they'd either fix it fast enough that you could wait for it, or they'd just give you a different model? That's not my experience - I had to go days with no mac when my mini broke (under warranty).

Please! If your PC webcam broke you'd buying a new one.

And you'd have zero downtime on the rest of your computer setup. I think you missed the whole point.

 

[BenRoethig]

WHy would anyone compare the iMac specs to laptop specs? iMac specs are certainly comparable to any desktop specs...granted they dont have a quad core version yet...just wait cant u people. If u want to run ur computer on a different monitor or HDTV of ur preference...u can still do that with the iMacs.

A picture is worth thousand words.

Unless you're doing little more than reading emails, that iMac needs a hub, a card reader, an external DVD burner, an external hard drive, an external TV tuner, and the associated cables and wall warts cluttering the desk. By itself the iMac is a very limited machine best used by teenagers and families with limited needs. I have one. Its great against a Cheap dell and it saves lots of space. As a true desktop replacement, its not even close to being up to the task.

 

[milo]

Unless you're doing little more than reading emails, that iMac needs a hub, a card reader, an external DVD burner, an external hard drive, an external TV tuner, and the associated cables and wall warts cluttering the desk. My itself the iMac is a very limited machine. I have one.

Why the DVD burner? You really need two drives on one machine? I rarely use the one I have.

 

[williedigital]

The fact is though, we no longer live in the early 1990's - and PCs have pretty much become commodity goods, just like microwave ovens or clothes washers. .

I'm sorry, but for most people, a $1500 (decent Imac)-$2,800 (standard MacPro) computer is NOT a commodity good. Those $400 EEE laptops? Maybe we're talking. A microwave can be had for $30 now. A new computer (in apple's world) is nearly the same price as a new computer in the early 90's (inflation adjusted). It's no more a commodity product now than it was then.

 

[Digital Skunk]

And you'd have zero downtime on the rest of your computer setup. I think you missed the whole point.

NO..... no I didn't. I wasn't very clear is all.

Machine has broken part. You either replace it and loose money, or get is serviced.

Dell, HP, Sony, many other companies have terrible service that leaves me without part or machine for WEEKS.

Apple has a retail location I go to and get it serviced.

If the PC tower's motherboard was fried, you'd either buy a new machine or deal with poor tech support. Dell is notorious for having YOU send the machine in and waiting weeks to get it patched up and sent back.

Apple takes your machine, fixes it onsite, and it comes back in 3 days, 5 days at the latest.

NO down time for the big stuff. If the webcam breaks suck it up, if the motherboard fries the PC market fails at servicing it.

 

[BenRoethig]

Why the DVD burner? You really need two drives on one machine? I rarely use the one I have.

The 8x slot loader can't use 3.5" camcorder disks and when it comes to burning or installing something...its best to have a book handy. Anything with the optical drive takes roughly twice as long as my parents 4-year old sempron HP. The iMac also has a tendency to scratch disks on its aluminum casing.

 

[daveporter]

Time for Apple to place a dedicated hard-wired security chip on its motherboards with proprietary, copy protected, legally protectable code that the OS must check for before Leopard will boot.

This will slow down this type of thing and give Apple the legal ammunition needed to take out any company that tries to defeat the security chip.

I am appalled by those that believe that companies have no right to dictate how and under what terms their products will be used. You have a choice, if you don't like the companies terms and policies, don't buy their products.

 

[Digital Skunk]

Why the DVD burner? You really need two drives on one machine? I rarely use the one I have.

Ben has a point though (even though the 3.5" discs were retarded to begin with), limited use. The iMac is amazing, but it's no tower with full sized desktop class CPUs.

....

The commodity laptop IS the EEE and other crappy 7" screen laptops. If you want a commodity laptop don't buy a Mac Book. Just like everything else. There's that classic "I want it therefore it should be in my price range" type of statement.

Nowadays anyone can get a worthy machine for $300 or so. But those people need to know that they just won't have a Mac for $300 unless they go used.

 

[BenRoethig]

Time for Apple to place a dedicated hard-wired security chip on its motherboards with proprietary, copy protected, legally protectable code that the OS must check for before Leopard will boot.

This will slow down this type of thing and give Apple the legal ammunition needed to take out any company that tries to defeat the security chip.

I am appalled by those that believe that companies have no right to dictate how and under what terms their products will be used. You have a choice, if you don't like the companies terms and policies, don't buy their products.

Not going to do any good unless they want to cut off all Mac prior to that security chip. Recalling all the machines out there to retrofit them be far beyond prohibitively expensive. In other words, they would have to choose between alienating just about everyone or bankrupting the company.

 

[Jack Flash]

For fun I priced out a machine using some parts from Newegg and used parts from various forums. I ended up with this.

Lian-Li PC-07 Case
Gigabyte Motherboard (EFI-X compatible)
4GB RAM
8800 GTX 512MB
Quad Core Q6600 @ 3.4 GHz Overclocked
D-Link DUB-120 Bluetooth Adapter
iMic
Dell 2007WFP S-IPS Panel monitor
Apple Aluminum Bluetooth Keyboard
Apple Mighty Mouse
750W PSU
EFI-X
1TB Hitachi Deskstar HDD
Lite-ON DVD 20x DVD Burner w/ Lightscribe

Came to be about $1,000 in total.

 

[milo]

One thing that should be noted in this discussion is that Apple does a pretty poor job of updating their machines and keeping them price competitive. Right now it's not hard to beat the available macs, but when the next refresh hits things should be more competitive, in some cases the macs are actually cheaper when you configure the same.

NO..... no I didn't. I wasn't very clear is all.

Machine has broken part. You either replace it and loose money, or get is serviced.

If the webcam in an iMac breaks, you have the machine serviced meaning you're without the machine for days.

If the external webcam on a PC breaks, you have no interruption in use of the rest of the machine while you unplug the broken webcam and get it fixed or replaced.

On many PCs, parts are standardized and easily user replaceable. Sure, if you have a mobo or CPU failure you're screwed, but those are rare compared with things like hard drives, video cards, monitors, etc which the user can usually swap pretty easily.

 

[Digital Skunk]

.....

Think bigger than the webcam.

Like the motherboard or the monitor.

I get what you are saying, since I am still looking for Apple to make a mini tower Mac for such reasons, but using the webcam as an example of the flaws of an all-in-one is weak. Once you look at the larger harder to replace parts, and then the service, you see that the images used for both sides are pretty stupid.

 

[daveporter]

Not going to do any good unless they want to cut off all Mac prior to that security chip. Recalling all the machines out there to retrofit them be far beyond prohibitively expensive. In other words, they would have to choose between alienating just about everyone or bankrupting the company.

This could be dealt with on an ongoing basis. Perhaps use some form of other copy protection for older MACs but require the chip on all MACs which use current technology at the time of implementation.

In reality, all it would take to keep massive numbers of folks from going the clone route is just enough pain-in-the-butt Leopard protections that most folks would not go through the heart-ache just to save a couple of hundred bucks. Perhaps what Apple should do is have Leopard check to see if this or any EFI dongle is attached and if so just not boot. Easier yet!

Dave

 

[diamond.g]

You don't see four of five different chipsets being used anymore and with Core I7 and quickpath there will not be anymore third party chipsets on the intel side.

Actually I was under the impression that Nvidia will get a quickpath license because they are letting Intel use SLI tech.

 

[milo]

Think bigger than the webcam.

Like the motherboard or the monitor.

I get what you are saying, since I am still looking for Apple to make a mini tower Mac for such reasons, but using the webcam as an example of the flaws of an all-in-one is weak. Once you look at the larger harder to replace parts, and then the service, you see that the images used for both sides are pretty stupid.

Did you read my post? I MENTIONED the monitor. With the PC, you swap in a different monitor, zero downtime. With the iMac, the whole thing goes in the shop and you have no computer for a few days at least.

Sure, the mobo can go, in which case it comes down to which company can fix it faster.

But there are many situations where being able to just swap a replacement part into a PC is an advantage over the iMac.

This could be dealt with on an ongoing basis. Perhaps use some form of other copy protection for older MACs but require the chip on all MACs which use current technology at the time of implementation.

Or just allow it to work on macs (and PCs) with current chips and have the OS only do the check when a newer CPU is present. Sure, it would allow PCs, but only ones with older CPUs, making the hack less and less useful as time goes on.

 

[kis]

Then OSX will run into the same compatibility problems that Windows run into & Apple will just turn like Microsoft. Not a lot of people would want that. I hope. !!!!

Microsoft's problem isn't primarily one of hardware compatibility but the fact that their OS is inherently crappy. While I agree that the connection between hardware and software ensures that the customer gets a (well, at least half-way) trouble-free OS X experience, it should still be the customer's choice to forfeit that privilege and to buy whatever hardware he wants. Obviously at the same time also forfeiting Apple support.

Apple already refuses to support parts of Leopard: bootcamp. Not only don't they support their Windows drivers, the customer service will tell you right away upon mentioning the mere word "bootcamp" that you're on your own, no matter what the problem may be.

peter

 

[teh_pwnerer]

Really, have you not read any of the comments on these many pages here? Most of those posting support for this are people that have Macs now and are ready to "jump ship" to save a buck. Mighty short-sighted folks.

You are also missing one important point, the market share increase that Apple is now enjoying is due to PC folks moving to the Macintosh for the first time (like me). Had there been a cheep alternative available to me that worked with little effort or risk don't you think I may have gone that way. I don't think its a great idea to provide non-Mac users the opportunity to settle for a cheap MAC clone since they don't know the differences that those that have been MAC users for a long period know. My point is that this type of device could slow the increase in market share that Apple is now enjoying. An increase in market share is good for all of us since it will lead to lower costs for equipment eventually, more diversity in product lines (since there will be more diversity in demand with more customers) and more R&D money for Apple to innovate with.

Just think this trough carefully before you support this idea.

First of all I don't think people posting on this forum, specifically in this thread are indicative of the general Mac customer population. And I'm not saying no one will do this I'm just saying the people that do switch don't add up to numbers that matter. Especially when you look at the increased popularity for OS X all this will bring. Second of all, there is a difference between a PC with OS X slapped on and a Mac bought with support. You may not think many people realize this, but they will come to learn.
Some users will put up with Hackintoshes, mostly computer people and enthusiasts, normal consumers don't want to be bothered. I doubt this will slow the uptake of Macs in the long run.
Let's look at the products Apple sells:
iPhone/iPod Touch: Obviously people wont buy clones of these. Advantage Apple.
iMac: Good computer, decent price. All-in-one unit. Nothing really like it as far as PCs go. You'd be a fool to buy an All-in-one hackintosh since one minor change and you're screwed. People who think they need a tower configuration with upgrade options aren't going to buy a Mac anyway. Advantage Apple.
Mac Mini: It's already cheap. Same upgrade issues as the iMac. Advantage Apple
Macbook/Macbook Pro: No contest here. Advantage Apple
Mac Pro: Ok, here is the first sign of a problem. The Mac Pro is expensive. Is it worth it? Maybe. Can you build it cheaper? Yes. Are companies going to avoid the Mac Pro and get the cheaper EFiX option? No. Individuals? Maybe. Weak Advantage: PC.
XServe: You think people are going to trust their OS X servers on something other than non Apple platforms? Advantage Apple.
I see a lot of "I'm a gamer, I now I can run OS X too" That's ok to me since gamers don't buy Macs anyway.
Mostly the people excited about EFiX are people who tinker with computers anyway: not the general population OR people who have been waiting for something like EFiX or Psystar to come along, not waiting to buy a real Mac.

 

[MM123]

This could be dealt with on an ongoing basis. Perhaps what Apple should do is have Leopard check to see if this or any EFI dongle is attached and if so just not boot. Easier yet!

Dave

Easier said than actually done

 

[macidiot]

Time for Apple to place a dedicated hard-wired security chip on its motherboards with proprietary, copy protected, legally protectable code that the OS must check for before Leopard will boot.

This will slow down this type of thing and give Apple the legal ammunition needed to take out any company that tries to defeat the security chip.

I am appalled by those that believe that companies have no right to dictate how and under what terms their products will be used. You have a choice, if you don't like the companies terms and policies, don't buy their products.

Apple did that for years. All Macintosh computers used to have Apple specific ROMs. It wasn't a security check per se, actual parts of the os were on the ROM. Apple did it because at the time, like 1984, it was a worthwhile solution, due to hardware and software constraints.

There was a big discussion about this when Apple switched to Intel processors. As in how will Apple stop people installing osx on any pc. Apple's solution was using the efi. And also trusting that people who wanted osx would just buy a mac. They believe that Mac users don't just want osx, they want the whole package.

As one can tell from the comments of some people on here, the latter has proven to be true.

Personally, I don't have much interest in the efi-x dongle. However, I do see the need for a mid-range desktop. The iMac is for consumers willing to accept its very major limitations and the MacPro is overkill. I personally would never buy an iMac and don't need all the capabilities of the MacPro. But I'd buy a $1500 mac tower in a heartbeat. And probably get a MacbookAir to complement it (well I'd seriously consider it, but one usb port is ass-stupid).

 

[teh_pwnerer]

Time for Apple to place a dedicated hard-wired security chip on its motherboards with proprietary, copy protected, legally protectable code that the OS must check for before Leopard will boot.

Terrible precedent. We don't need any more locked down things.

I am appalled by those that believe that companies have no right to dictate how and under what terms their products will be used. You have a choice, if you don't like the companies terms and policies, don't buy their products.

Totally disagree. It's like Toyota telling me what I can or cannot do with my car. Once I own they car they can't do anything about it. I can even put a Honda symbol on it and sell it to my neighbor. Somehow we've entered into this digital age where people think just because someone sells something with a EULA glued to the package they have a right to control every aspect of what goes on with the product after the sale. It's sold, it's gone.