Elizabeth Warren Outlines Right-To-Repair Legislation That Could Affect Apple's Products

[jlc1978]

As a German: In my opinion it is very scary how many leftist ideas are currently being embraced in the USA. I always looked at the entrepreneurial spirits, the free markets and the general business positive attitude of the USA with a little bit of envy.

I would not worry about it. Politicians say a lot of things, doing things is another story.
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Of course they would need to pay if they damaged it further, but right to repair also offers more options for third party shops (read: shops with capable techs, but not necessarily access to OEM parts and repair manuals) to compete.

The assumption is that the materials will be competitvely priced and not so high that third party repairs are not cost effective with OEM parts. Not to mention specialized tools, etc.

 

[redheeler]

As much as I like the “idea” of the right to repair movement (I’m 100% in support of consumer-friendly products), having the government force companies to make products a certain way sounds super dangerous. Companies should be free to choose how they make and sell their products. And then we, as consumers, have the right to call them out when they make dumb decisions. But forcing them to change is kind of evil.

What this policy would do is force Apple to sell replacement parts to independent repair shops or the general public, instead of just AASPs. Because currently, Apple can choose to withhold any parts from independent repair shops or even AASPs, and force customers to get their devices repaired through Apple + pay Apple's prices for doing so.

What this policy wouldn't do, based on the way Warren described it, is "force companies to make products a certain way".

 

[dan110]

As a German: In my opinion it is very scary how many leftist ideas are currently being embraced in the USA. I always looked at the entrepreneurial spirits, the free markets and the general business positive attitude of the USA with a little bit of envy.

Now, many people want the government to increasingly interfere in people’s life’s, a policy that already hasn’t worked in Europe. Why should it work in the USA?

It’s no coincidence that all the big and successful tech companies of today were founded in the USA.

We need the US as a beacon of personal and entrepreneurial freedom.

Help me to understand. You think right to repair is a bad idea? If so, why and why did it fail in Germany?

 

[mikethemartian]

Getting rude and disrespectful in arguments seems to be a common theme with the left these days.
I don’t think you guys are doing yourself a any favors with it.
But by all means, keep it up.

Sure it is only the left that is rude, I’m sure nobody can think of a figure on the right who is rude.

 

[tshrimp]

Wow. Elizabeth Warren has now mentioned 2 things I actually support. It is still only 2 as most of her other policies are a little out there fore me. I support this. If the companies were not acting so monopolistic, I would have a different view.

 

[apolloa]

This is where Apple has a complete monopoly, and an incredibly anti consumer attitude, it’s funny people on here are against choice and demand only Apple can repair THEIR devices, for a high cost.. or they own AAPL shares and don’t declare it in here.

 

[jlc1978]

I can understand farm equipment... the average farmer can and do repair their equipment just as good as an authorized dealer most cases.

The avg consumer can and do replace their own home furnace filters. There's no need to create an artificial economy to gouge the consumer.

I don't understand precision electronics or fine equipment, like some consumer electronics... the average consumer can easily screw it up... then the questions and headaches comes to find out who's responsible for what, when the consumer brings in a botched self-repair job on a warrantied equipment.

The problem is many products have so much technology integrated in them that repair is very complicated and requires training and skills beyond most users.

You mention farm equipment and farmers repairing them. Much of today's equipment has so much technmology integrated intop how it works that working on one section can adversely impact others; and unless you know how the system will work you could very well get hurt or cause headaches beyond the repair. Cars are a good example and proxy for farm equipment. It used to be a decent shade tree mechanic could do a lot of work on a car. I can remember tuning a V8 by putting a quarter on the block and adjusting the timing until it didn't vibrate. Today, it often takes a computer to determine what is going on and updating settings as you do a fix. One car I had had a brake system that automatically applied brakes when a door was open. Unless you disarmed that someoine opening a door during a brake job, which is still a manual DIY possible job, parts would get launched across the room. of course, no where did the manufacturer tell you of that risk.

Tre real issue is not R2R, but build for repair. Until manufactures design products so they can be repaired the R2R is a chimera.

 

[gixxerfool]

I didnt say anything about replacement...

currently, without a right to repair law, apple could very well just say "this is out of warranty, we refuse to repair it. you must either buy a new one or nothing".

 

[LordVic]

currently, without a right to repair law, apple could very well just say "this is out of warranty, we refuse to repair it. you must either buy a new one or nothing".

I think you're misunderstanding what I said, could be my fault.

currently, Apple could tell you that it refuses to repair your device and the only way to get a functional working one is to buy a brand new one in box.

 

[rom3o]

You already have the right to repair your own phone.

Try importing original Apple parts to repair your iPhone. This does not only affect parts that have been refurbished in China or elsewhere. Even unmodified parts, legally purchased outside the U.S. (e.g. functional parts taken from otherwise defective devices), are likely to be confiscated because Apple claims that any parts bearing their trademark (and not being imported by Apple themselves) must be counterfeit - including original Apple parts.

Apple trying to shut down a repair shop using refurbished iPhone displays… https://www.macrumors.com/2018/04/13/apple-lawsuit-repair-shop-norway/
… and Louis Rossmann on how customs seized original MacBook batteries that Apple doesn't sell anymore:

[…]I always looked at the entrepreneurial spirits, the free markets and the general business positive attitude of the USA with a little bit of envy. […]
We need the US as a beacon of personal and entrepreneurial freedom.

Funny how your reasoning against the right to repair initiative resembles their very own statements: https://repair.org

A free, independent market for repair and reuse is more efficient, more competitive, and better for consumers. Repair helps create local jobs, and repair and reuse benefits the environment by reducing end-of-life electronic products. The freedom to maintain, innovate, and improve upon our products is imperative. These basic freedoms are essential to American economic growth and creativity, and must be preserved for the 21st century.

[…]

Over three million Americans work hard every day to keep our cars, computers, appliances, and other critical infrastructure operating smoothly.

Repair is the lifeblood of local economies. Our members make products last longer, save owners money, and create local jobs.

Since you keep talking about DIY repairs in this thread you seem to be missing the point that the current development affects third-party repair businesses as well, sometimes already making it impossible to source genuine spare-parts for repairs they could easily perform (see the video above on importing batteries for 'vintage' MacBooks). That is why the movement is backed many of those small and medium sized companies that you think such legislation would destroy.

 

[Jmausmuc]

Consumer power, as you describe, works great for breakfast cereals, where you have hundreds to choose from, and it only takes a couple of million bucks (or less!) for a new entrant to come into the market with a new product. It works not at all when there are only two or three competitors, and would cost $20B for a new entrant to equal the product offerings already in the market.

If there is potential, someone will usually find it. That is partly why banks exist, to connect people who have money (and want to make returns) to people who need money.

 

[iReality85]

Wow. Elizabeth Warren has now mentioned 2 things I actually support. It is still only 2 as most of her other policies are a little out there fore me. I support this. If the companies were not acting so monopolistic, I would have a different view.

This, along with Warren’s proposed break up of big tech companies, makes her sound right wing. Ironic.

Still wouldn’t make me vote for her, though.

 

[Jmausmuc]

Try importing original Apple parts to repair your iPhone. This does not only affect parts that have been refurbished in China or elsewhere. Even unmodified parts, legally purchased outside the U.S. (e.g. functional parts taken from otherwise defective devices), are likely to be confiscated because Apple claims that any parts bearing their trademark (and not being imported by Apple themselves) must be counterfeit - including original Apple parts.

Apple trying to shut down a repair shop using refurbished iPhone displays… https://www.macrumors.com/2018/04/13/apple-lawsuit-repair-shop-norway/
… and Louis Rossmann on how customs seized original MacBook batteries that Apple doesn't sell anymore:

Funny how your reasoning against the right to repair initiative resembles their very own statements: https://repair.org


Since you keep talking about DIY repairs in this thread you seem to be missing the point that the current development affects third-party repair businesses as well, sometimes already making it impossible to source genuine spare-parts for repairs they could easily perform (see the video above on importing batteries for 'vintage' MacBooks). That is why the movement is backed many of those small and medium sized companies that you think such legislation would destroy.

This is kind of what the EU is doing. Making laws to increase competition. Reminded me of the Microsoft case where they had to actively advertise competitive web-browsers. And this shows it all. Even though Microsoft supposedly has all the power of their windows Plattform they still didn’t manage to make EDGE successful and people are still downloading Chrome by the masses even thought windows ships with EDGE preinstalled.

I don’t think this is the right way. For me, a free market is a market where you can decisive what you do with your own products.

This is the same candidate that also wants to break up big companies, isn’t it?

 

[SBlue1]

As a German: In my opinion it is very scary how many leftist ideas are currently being embraced in the USA. I always looked at the entrepreneurial spirits, the free markets and the general business positive attitude of the USA with a little bit of envy.

Now, many people want the government to increasingly interfere in people’s life’s, a policy that already hasn’t worked in Europe. Why should it work in the USA?

It’s no coincidence that all the big and successful tech companies of today were founded in the USA.

We need the US as a beacon of personal and entrepreneurial freedom.

As a German: In my opinion it is very scary how Americans (and you) think that every rule the government sets for the best of its people is leftist. There are reasons that you have to set up some rules for companies. Some things don't get regulated by the free market, because if all you want is to maximize profits you will save money on other ends which may be safety or quality.

I am sure shareholders and owners of ocean cruisers don't want that many live boats, they want that extra space for more cabins to sell. But the government sadly because of one well known tragedy had to implement rules on ships. Guess what tragedy that was? I am also very sure the oil industry would still happily use single hull tankers but sadly after a well known tragedy the government had to set a rule that every new built tanker that wants to use an American harbor has to have a double hull. Do you think the construction industry would introduce hard hats if it wasn't regulated by the government? Would the food industry still use synthetic hormones, potassium bromate or azodicarbonamide if they were not forbidden? Or think of any other industry like medicine, transportation, electronics and so on.

I am happy that I live in Europe even though some people think everything is too regulated. Yes there are silly regulations but there may be reasons for them that I am not aware of. European governments do interfere in its people’s lives and it's working great. It makes our food safer, it empowers consumers, it protects our environment. Ever been to China? LOL! I know I know Europe is all leftist socialist countries by US standards but I think the US could use some more regulations for the best of its people. And the right to repair is one of those rules that will benefit all.

 

[Jmausmuc]

As a German: In my opinion it is very scary how Americans (and you) think that every rule the government sets for the best of its people is leftist. There are reasons that you have to set up some rules for companies. Some things don't get regulated by the free market, because if all you want is to maximize profits you will save money on other ends which may be safety or quality.

I am sure shareholders and owners of ocean cruisers don't want that many live boats, they want that extra space for more cabins to sell. But the government sadly because of one well known tragedy had to implement rules on ships. Guess what tragedy that was? I am also very sure the oil industry would still happily use single hull tankers but sadly after a well known tragedy the government had to set a rule that every new built tanker that wants to use an American harbor has to have a double hull. Do you think the construction industry would introduce hard hats if it wasn't regulated by the government? Would the food industry still use synthetic hormones, potassium bromate or azodicarbonamide if they were not forbidden? Or think of any other industry like medicine, transportation, electronics and so on.

I am happy that I live in Europe even though some people think everything is too regulated. Yes there are silly regulations but there may be reasons for them that I am not aware of. European governments do interfere in its people’s lives and it's working great. It makes our food safer, it empowers consumers, it protects our environment. Ever been to China? LOL! I know I know Europe is all leftist socialist countries by US standards but I think the US could use some more regulations for the best of its people. And the right to repair is one of those rules that will benefit all.

Europe hardly has any tech companies. Even out great car industry is under heavy pressure from disrupters like Tesla and the new Chinese manufacturers. Volvo of Sweden is now Chinese.
Our banks are in huge trouble as well. The outlook isn’t great.
If we don’t find a way to become globally competitive again, we are in for some tough changes.

It’s been going downhill for Europe for some time now and we are only living from the archievements of the past. The EU and our government has over regulated the continent three times over to the degree that we can’t even finish an airport anymore because of unrealistic buildings g regulation. Housing is becoming impossible to afford for the same reason, there is virtually no different sin build costs between social housing and luxury apartments because of all the regulation.

 

[bladerunner2000]

Are you kidding? How are you going to repair glued super thin tech devices like phones? If in fact everyone is doing it, there is a reason for it.

You people always imagine companies as some kind of dictators that can do how they please when they are in fact are constantly fighting for survival in the marketplace. So many formerly big companies were suddenly disrupted when nobody expected it.

If there were a market for DOY repairable phones, someone would offer them.

For laptops there are many alternatives or you could build your own desktop pc.

But you want the benefits of today’s precisely engineered super thin devices and also get cheap repairers and you want the government to make it happen for you...

Tim Cook... is that you?

 

[SBlue1]

Europe hardly has any tech companies. Even out great car industry is under heavy pressure from disrupters like Tesla and the new Chinese manufacturers. Volvo of Sweden is now Chinese.
Our banks are in huge trouble as well. The outlook isn’t great.
If we don’t find a way to become globally competitive again, we are in for some tough changes.

It’s been going downhill for Europe for some time now and we are only living from the archievements of the past. The EU and our government has over regulated the continent three times over to the degree that we can’t even finish an airport anymore because of unrealistic buildings g regulation. Housing is becoming impossible to afford for the same reason, there is virtually no different sin build costs between social housing and luxury apartments because of all the regulation.

Ah ok I see. Glad you know all of this to enlighten us. All those late night chats at your local Trinkhalle with your Jägermeister buddies finally payed off I guess. Well no time to argue on the internet - gotta meet my own buddies for a few cold German beers and share some EU and Brexit jokes.

 

[LordVic]

Are you kidding? How are you going to repair glued super thin tech devices like phones? If in fact everyone is doing it, there is a reason for it.

You people always imagine companies as some kind of dictators that can do how they please when they are in fact are constantly fighting for survival in the marketplace. So many formerly big companies were suddenly disrupted when nobody expected it.

If there were a market for DOY repairable phones, someone would offer them.

For laptops there are many alternatives or you could build your own desktop pc.

But you want the benefits of today’s precisely engineered super thin devices and also get cheap repairers and you want the government to make it happen for you...

umm, what?

you realize there is literally thousands of companies out there that specialize in repairing exactly what you are saying here.

Nobody is saying that right to repair means that every single user is going to repair their phones by themselves.

Right to repair means that the company producing the product cannot go out of their way to prohibit or prevent you from having your device repaired by witholding components, or applying unreasonable pressure on other companies to not attempt repairs on devices.

this is important to people because in our world, when you purchase a piece of equipment/hardware, THING.. you own that THING, and are generally free to do with it as you please (Barring something that might cause personal harm to someone).

this isn't also "super cheap repairs'. this is repairs. Period. Currently, if your "precisely engineered super thin device" is out of warranty period, and you wish to get it repaired, even for minor defects, the manufacturer can say "nope!" even if you want to pay for it.

In addition, since companies, in market position such as Apple (arguably oligopoly), have power over the market to enforce aspects like Licensing of repair shops, such as wich, that if a shop doesn't abide directly to Apple's directive, they could be driven out of business by license removal.

Apple has historically been known to use that pressure to deny service, and parts to those who wish to repair (and pay whatever Applea sked) for the replacement parts.

Currently , when this happens, Apple's only way forward is "Buy a brand new device".

Supporting that is extremely consumer hostile position to take. And additionaly, other companies that behave in such a manner are also pretty scummy. Apple aren't exclusive in this.

 

[LovingTeddy]

I find your reply a little hard to read.

The US was the beacon of freedom that helped serve as an example of incredible economic development and spread capitalism to many more countries. Europe always had a tendency for leftist policies. Just look at the stock market from 2008 to today, USA is outperforming is almost 2x. And Germany is a String Economy in Europe, i don’t even wanna talk about most other countries.

If the US didn’t spent so much money on war and military, the standard of living would be way above Europe.

There is no such country with total free market at all. Free market does not work at all. Regulations will be need to balance need for mass and the need for business. Total free market without regulations will never sustain itself. Think about a country without some short regulations with environmental protection, will you ever have clearn water to drink. Think about a country without some short of labor regulation, what will happen to the labor who injured themselves during the work? The fact when big business grow too much, they will have such influence to the point that sometime it is better for government to intervene.

I am one that welcome some short of regulation that protect consumer from abusive power that these big corporation holds. One should able to freely repairs things they own. Things like TouchID being disabled with third party display should never happen.

 

[unplugme71]

I’m for this law if it meets these requirements:

1) any customer can buy replacement parts from manufacturer and repair their own equipment

2) company is not obligated to provide repair manual

3) self-replacement does not void warranty

4) warranty repair by authorized service center will not repair under warranty if self install was the cause of failure;

However, if part was bad, the part would be covered, and not labor.

 

[btbeme]

Even though her iPhone screen was cracked, Elizabeth Warren was having a pretty good day...until someone at the Apple Store asked her if she had a reservation.

 

[Jensend]

It’s no coincidence that all the big and successful tech companies of today were founded in the USA.

But I suppose it’s a coincidence that most of them were started in one of the most progressive states in the US?
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Are you kidding? How are you going to repair glued super thin tech devices like phones? If in fact everyone is doing it, there is a reason for it.

The same way Apple does?

 

[WatchFromAfar]

Nobody is forcing you do buy from these companies. Just exercise your right as a customer to choose instead of demanding legislation.

While you're correct any individual has the right to choose another company I feel you are looking at it backwards.

If a company chooses to sell it's wares to an individual then that's the end of the transaction; those wares are now yours to use/absuse/repair/break as you see fit and you should have the right to do so.

If the company doesn't like this they shouldn't make their wares for sale.

 

[nikaru]

As a German: In my opinion it is very scary how many leftist ideas are currently being embraced in the USA. I always looked at the entrepreneurial spirits, the free markets and the general business positive attitude of the USA with a little bit of envy.

Now, many people want the government to increasingly interfere in people’s life’s, a policy that already hasn’t worked in Europe. Why should it work in the USA?

It’s no coincidence that all the big and successful tech companies of today were founded in the USA.

We need the US as a beacon of personal and entrepreneurial freedom.

What are you talking about? Giving the people the freedom to repair their stuff instead of througing it to the garbage or paying crazy money for repair from the official dealer is good for customers and the envieronment. The old generations had the skills and the will to repair the stuffs that brake and nowdays, people just buy a new one even if the old one can be fixed easly and cheaply. Repair schematics, service codes and diagnosing tools should be public and free to all customers and all electronic products. During my liftime I have "saved" tons of electronic equipment from the dumpster that needed little to no repair to work properly during many more years. Manufacturers are still free to design and make product the way they want to, there is noting hurting the entrepreneurial spirit nor the free markets. Quite the opposite.

 

[Jmausmuc]

While you're correct any individual has the right to choose another company I feel you are looking at it backwards.

If a company chooses to sell it's wares to an individual then that's the end of the transaction; those wares are now yours to use/absuse/repair/break as you see fit and you should have the right to do so.

If the company doesn't like this they shouldn't make their wares for sale.

You do. This is not what this legislation is about. You can even open up your iPhone take out all the components and throw everything in the trash, nobody, not even the manufacturer will prevent you from doing so.

But you can’t force a company to sell you spare parts if they don’t want to. Security is also an issue.

I don’t think these kinds of consumer protection laws are necessary because especially with the internet, news of bad behavior from companies spreads quickly and cunsomers can react to it.
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But I suppose it’s a coincidence that most of them were started in one of the most progressive states in the US?

Fair point. But compared to Europe, regulation is still relatively low, especially when it comes to ease of doing business.
Of course now, especially the Silicon Valley has turned into a self sustaining positive feedback loop, with good schools, a lot of talent and everyone who wants to start a tech company moving there. Why would you do it anywhere else.
I still believe that mich of this loop was started before legislation like this.

I also heard that Cali is not doing so well anymore, having financial problems, more people leaving than coming in and so on which is not surprising looking at some of the recent legislation.