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The wonderful thing about Twitter is that you aren’t forced to see anyone’s “lies and misinformation”. Don’t look. Don’t follow. Swipe. That way, you can simply follow and view the “lies and misinformation” you agree with.
That’s the problem. Everyone will choose “lies & misinformations” they like. If someone likes DT’s lies about election fraud they will follow those lies. In effect, twitter will be a megaphone for those lies. That’s not ok and lies is not free speech either.
 
Lies is not free speech. Just because we value free speech doesn’t mean we should tolerate lies.
Yes it is. What divine authority do you have in mind to decide what are lies and what's truth?

If you say something is a lie and I say it's the truth, who decides if it's censored or not?

We need freedom of speech to sort things through in order to determine what are lies in the first place. Otherwise you get to a point where some authority decides that lies are the truth, and society is destroyed.
 
What divine authority do you have in mind to decide what are lies and what's truth?

If you say something is a lie and I say it's the truth, who decides if it's censored or not?
There are plenty that is clear cut. I’m surprised you think everything is in a shade of grey.

For example, Donald Trump lie that he won 2020 election and Biden got it because of election frauds. Are you saying that we do not know if that’s a lie or not?
Are you saying we don’t know if Alex Jones lied about Sandy Hook?
 
There are plenty that is clear cut. I’m surprised you think everything is in a shade of grey.

For example, Donald Trump lie that he won 2020 election and Biden got it because of election frauds. Are you saying that we do not know if that’s a lie or not?
Are you saying we don’t know if Alex Jones lied about Sandy Hook or not?

You're already bringing politics into it straight away, and that's kinda the point.

These things need to be talked through, even if you're sure you're right. If you have a large group of people who believe Trump won, and the immediate response is to censor all those people, their only response is to start a revolution, because if words aren't allowed, violence comes next.

Instead there's a robust war of ideas where most people will admit Biden won the election.

You may not like that war of ideas, but it doesn't matter that you don't like it.
 
Not “censure all those people”. Censure Trump (to show what he said is lie). Once electors decided who’s the winner & he continued to lie, he should be censured, & rightly so.

Contrary to what some people might believe, good society needs good rules, not no rule.

Again, you can't just decide who's right and who's wrong. The only way this doesn't devolve into the state having absolute power over what people can say is if you allow these arguments to be had all the way through without you going in and censoring one side.

If you take away words, violence follows.

Maybe it would have been good if someone shut Trump up. But then that power is going to shut up the next person, and the next, and then we're done for.
 
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Again, you can't just decide who's right and who's wrong. The only way this doesn't devolve into the state having absolute power over what people can say is if you allow these arguments to be had all the way through without you going in and censoring one side.

If you take away words, violence follows.

Maybe it would have been good if someone shut Trump up. But then that power is going to shut up the next person, and the next, and then we're done for.
You're simply arguing a common slippery slope fallacy. Of course I can decide who's right and wrong. That's freedom. You're the one jumping from a private platform to "the state". The state certainly shouldn't be censoring speech.

Propaganda and misinformation are real and they work. Forcing a private company to carry propaganda and misinformation in the name of free speech is itself a direct violation of what free speech actually means. And a private company that doesn't do it's best to limit propaganda and misinformation on its platform should be shunned.
 
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Forcing a private company to carry propaganda and misinformation in the name of free speech is itself a direct violation of what free speech actually means. And a private company that doesn't do it's best to limit propaganda and misinformation on its platform should be shunned.
You essentially just made the case for Musk allowing free speech on his platform.

It's up to the viewer/user to decide it that speech is relevant, honest, or worthwhile, once the company hosting the site determines its okay to post this information.

Misinformation IS free speech. It's just mis-informed (to one side or the other) speech. But it's free.

And for anyone to believe that ANY side shuns misinformation is...

...mis-informed.
 
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I thought Elon Musk not too long ago was fighting not to buy Twitter and was planning to take it to the Courts? 🧐
 
You essentially just made the case for Musk allowing free speech on his platform.
I don't know what you mean by this statement. Of course the first ammendment's free speech clause allows Musk to allow what legal speech he wants. What we are discussing is what speech he should allow and promote.

It's up to the viewer/user to decide it that speech is relevant, honest, or worthwhile, once the company hosting the site determines its okay to post this information.
Okay? I have no idea what your point is here.

Misinformation IS free speech. It's just mis-informed (to one side or the other) speech. But it's free.
No it's not. Sure, it's a type of speech that the government should not regulate unless it poses imminent harm. But it's not "free speech". They are two different things.

And for anyone to believe that ANY side shuns misinformation is...

...mis-informed.
Sure. If you want to be black and white. Both sides use misinformation. But the world isn't black and white. One side (assuming you're referring to US politics) uses misinformation significantly more than the other in recent years.
 
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Misinformation IS free speech.
Misinformation is often disinformation -- that is, deliberate lies deliberately spread. And when disinformation channels get caught out, they say "but but but EVERYbody has the right to an opinion."

I'd add that there's no shortage of places on the net where you can go and say whatever you like, no matter how "controversial" -- i.e. overtly racist or fascist. But they don't tend to do well as commercial enterprises, because most people don't find it amusing to hang out with such crap floating in the waters.

Which is to say, Elon Musk has painted himself into a no-win position. If he turns Twitter into 4chan, it's worthless, because he'll drive most users out. He'll lose much more than he gains. If he doesn't turn Twitter into 4chan, then all his posturing about free speech get shown to be empty.
 
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Misinformation is often disinformation -- that is, deliberate lies deliberately spread. And when disinformation channels get caught out, they say "but but but EVERYbody has the right to an opinion."
The problem is that the only true point of reference of what is misinformation and what is not can only be a skills like statesmanship competencies of the individual which the average person simply does not have.

So unless you want to completely exclude the average people from the conversation(which will probably exclude you as well) your best bet will be allowing people(even if their only skill is the "gut feeling") to voice their opinion freely.
 
The problem is that the only true point of reference of what is misinformation and what is not can only be a skills like statesmanship competencies of the individual which the average person simply does not have.

So unless you want to completely exclude the average people from the conversation(which will probably exclude you as well) your best bet will be allowing people(even if their only skill is the "gut feeling") to voice their opinion freely.
The problem with Twitter moderation (and most social media platforms) isn't what it allows people to say. It's what it promotes that people say. Grandpa Joe can spout all the lies he wants. The problem with social media is that its algorithms promote Grandpa Joe's lies to millions of people because "engagement". Same incentives apply to TV news and even traditional news to a lesser extent.

You don't have to exclude average people from the conversation as long as you promote experts over blowhards.
 
The problem with Twitter moderation (and most social media platforms) isn't what it allows people to say. It's what it promotes that people say.
That's why Google did its turnaround on Holocaust denial on Youtube -- it was shown to them that not only were they *hosting* it, but the algorithm was happily *promoting* it. "Ah I see you were looking for information about the Holocaust, so here's Bunkerbonker von Kranktrousers telling you the Jews made it up." Even the whizzes of Google knew that was a place they didn't want to be.
 
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The problem with Twitter moderation (and most social media platforms) isn't what it allows people to say. It's what it promotes that people say. Grandpa Joe can spout all the lies he wants. The problem with social media is that its algorithms promote Grandpa Joe's lies to millions of people because "engagement". Same incentives apply to TV news and even traditional news to a lesser extent.

You don't have to exclude average people from the conversation as long as you promote experts over blowhards.
The individuals will have a right to pick the platform which algorithms(the owner) they trust the most by themselves. This is the choice only you can make and have control over. But you are definitely don't have any right to say to the individuals which platforms are good or bad.

If you really care about the people making the right choices you will have to invest in education of everyone around you. If a Grandpa Joe educates himself enough to look at any given piece of information through the eyes of say Jake Sullivan you know he will be in a good hands regardless of how many times this piece of info gets promoted or re-posted.
 
The individuals will have a right to pick the platform which algorithms(the owner) they trust the most by themselves. This is the choice only you can make and have control over.
Yes!

But you are definitely don't have any right to say to the individuals which platforms are good or bad.
I don't understand what you are saying here. I assume there is a typo.

If you really care about the people making the right choices you will have to invest in education of everyone around you. If a Grandpa Joe educates himself enough to look at any given piece of information through the eyes of say Jake Sullivan you know he will be in a good hands regardless of how many times this piece of info gets promoted or re-posted.
Investing in education is important, but you can't expect individuals to be experts in everything. Moderation of propaganda and misinformation is still something we should demand from popular platforms.
 
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I don't understand what you are saying here. I assume there is a typo.
You don't have a right to say Twitter is bad and Facebook is good for example. It is up for the individual to decide for themselves. You have a right to voice your personal opinion but in the end individuals will decide for themselves.

Investing in education is important, but you can't expect individuals to be experts in everything. Moderation of propaganda and misinformation is still something we should demand from popular platforms.
Demand is a very strong word and those who demand will still have to be questioned and heavily moderated themselves. At the end of the day you just can't bypass education. Nations rise and fall because of the poor education. Unfortunately the idea behind all social platforms is to dumb people down. Arguing about algorithms is meaningless and shallow in itself. This is why reading books is a must no matter how hard it is.
 
But they don't tend to do well as commercial enterprises, because most people don't find it amusing to hang out with such crap floating in the waters.

And this is where the free market crosses paths with free speech.

You are absolutely right. It's simple, as I mentioned in my first comment to this thread: Whoever gets the most people on their side wins. The sorting happens on its own in a free speech environment.

But, on a parallel track -- Since there are so many hidy-holes on the internet for folks to go, it's better if people with opposing (or yes, even misinformed) views are visible and very public on an open forum like Twitter. How better to form your own counter to ideologies one might oppose than to have that opposition in plain sight and not hidden in an encrypted members-only forum on the far reaches of the internet?
 
You don't have a right to say Twitter is bad and Facebook is good for example. It is up for the individual to decide for themselves. You have a right to voice your personal opinion but in the end individuals will decide for themselves.
Of course I have the right to say Facebook is bad. Still not sure what you are trying to say here.
 
How better to form your own counter to ideologies one might oppose than to have that opposition in plain sight and not hidden in an encrypted members-only forum on the far reaches of the internet?
I don't need to encounter racism daily to know what racism is, and I don't need to encounter it daily to determine whether it's still basically the same glop it always has been.
 
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As if words don't lead to violence too.

Elon Musk is not "the state" and "the state" is not Elon Musk.

If you can't have a war of ideas, then you have a war. This is really basic free speech stuff and I'm astounded you live in a free society and don't understand why your society is free in the first place.
 
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