Elon Musk Says Apple's 30% App Store Fee is 'Literally 10 Times Higher Than It Should Be'

[Nuno Lopes]

That's silly. The platform developer has to actually create the APIs and UI that connect developers and consumers.

Well, if you want to open a restaurant you have to create all sorts of infrastructure compliant with the laws. From fire escapes, to the building structure, exhaustion … the same for Cars, Planes … everything that is marketed ... Call it the APIs of the analog. All of them could always have opted for not building anything. And we haven’t yet touched accounting APIs.

Still all of them compete very well between each other.

This is to say that if you find that silly given such premise of yours … all of this is also silly.

Cheers.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

Device manufacturers should have little to no say in how developers and customers are engaging with each other.

Unless within their App Stores of course. That is why detaching the App Store business practices from the device is fundamental to warrant such rights inline with the constitution the way I see it.

Most if not all the cases that are put foreword are because digital services feel that such right is being taken from them by competing corps such as Apple … ever so gradually … ever so more and more invasive.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Yes, unless within their App Stores of course. That is why detaching the App Store from the device is fundamental to warrant such right without constant supervision.

100% agree

Totally fine with Apple having their own App Store, absolutely!
Do whatever they want in there as long as it's not the "only way".

Give me basically the macOS experience in some flavor and it's all good.

On macOS I get nearly all my software direct from the developers.
On Windows, it's a mix of a couple stores and some direct.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Apple can have their own App Store and do literally whatever they want on terms/conditions/experience in there.

What they can't do is be the only way to install iOS software

If their App Store experience is truly superior and preferred, that will reflect itself in developers and consumers choosing to use it. It will be good for everyone for Apple to have to compete and draw interest from developers to be in their App Store.




(the quiet part out loud: Apple doesn't want to have to compete!)

 

[BaldiMac]

Apple can have their own App Store and do literally whatever they want on terms/conditions/experience in there.

What they can't do is be the only way to install iOS software

If their App Store experience is truly superior and preferred, that will reflect itself in developers and consumers choosing to use it. It will be good for everyone for Apple to have to compete and draw interest from developers to be in their App Store.




(the quiet part out loud: Apple doesn't want to have to compete!)

Except we already have an example of consumer preference. On Android, almost no one uses alternative app stores or sideloading outside of China. Consumers aren't the ones demanding these changes.

 

[Sampire51]

Apple can have their own App Store and do literally whatever they want on terms/conditions/experience in there.

What they can't do is be the only way to install iOS software

If their App Store experience is truly superior and preferred, that will reflect itself in developers and consumers choosing to use it. It will be good for everyone for Apple to have to compete and draw interest from developers to be in their App Store.




(the quiet part out loud: Apple doesn't want to have to compete!)

Apple has been basically coasting the last few years. They haven't had to compete. Open it up and its a whole different ballgame.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Apple has been basically coasting the last few years. They haven't had to compete. Open it up and its a whole different ballgame.

Even Apple's App Store offering would be better if it had to compete.

If you like the Apple App Store, you'll LOVE it when it's even better due to having to compete for developer and consumer interest!

Competition is the driver here that needs to be unleashed.

 

[mschmalenbach]

So Tesla's will support CarPlay and Android Auto? You know, to remove any walled gardens?

Plus I might want to customise & add to the code in the Tesla so I can have my own approach to self driving etc....

 

[webkit]

Sounds like a stupid and inconsequential reason to force a company to change their business model.


Except by critics, you primarily mean large corporations that want a piece of Apple's pie. There isn't any sort of large consumer backlash to Apple's model. The app market on the iPhone is large, diverse, and low-priced.

App developers, governments, etc. are the ones that get the most attention in news articles and such but plenty of "regular folks" complain about it on forums like this one. People complain about companies making "too much money" especially if they feel the companies are doing so in any sort of greedy monopolistic, competition stifling manner.

Given Apple's mobile OS dominance/duopoly, many would prefer to see Apple open the iOS doors to competing app stores and let more of an open market decide what a fair commission would be. Consumers and developers may overwhelming still choose Apple's App Store (even if the commission rates don't change) but at least there would be choice. Apple should have the technical capabilities to pull this off "safely" for its users but they seem to prefer not to do it even if means dealing with potential lawsuits, public criticisms, etc.

Apple has the right what they want (at least if it's legal which can vary by country, circumstance, etc.) and people have the right to complain/criticize what Apple does or doesn't do, others can disagree, and before you know it there are hundreds of posts on the topic.

 

[BaldiMac]

Even Apple's App Store offering would be better if it had to compete.

If you like the Apple App Store, you'll LOVE it when it's even better due to having to compete for developer and consumer interest!

Competition is the driver here that needs to be unleashed.

How will it get better?

App developers, governments, etc. are the ones that get the most attention in news articles and such but plenty of "regular folks" complain about it on forums like this one. People complain about companies making "too much money" especially if they feel the companies are doing so in any sort of greedy monopolistic, competition stifling manner.

People in this forum aren't a reflection of the global market. Again, we already have an example of how consumers react to allowing multiple app stores on Android. They don't care.

Given Apple's mobile OS dominance/duopoly, many would prefer to see Apple open the iOS doors to competing app stores and let more of an open market decide what a fair commission would be. Consumers and developers may overwhelming still choose Apple's App Store (even if the commission rates don't change) but at least there would be choice. Apple should have the technical capabilities to pull this off "safely" for its users but they seem to prefer not to do it even if means dealing with potential lawsuits, public criticisms, etc.

Apple has the right what they want (at least if it's legal which can vary by country, circumstance, etc.) and people have the right to complain/criticize what Apple does or doesn't do, others can disagree, and before you know it there are hundreds of posts on the topic.

I don't believe that its a significant number of consumers base on the android example. The evidence shows that its large corporations that are lobbying and filing complaints for a piece of Apple's pie. Epic. Paypal. Match Group. Etc.

 

[webkit]

There’s a big reason there isn’t multiple App Stores don’t exist for iOS. Apple doesn’t want them.

Really? I'm shocked! /s

 

[turbineseaplane]

How will it get better?

You know damned well that competitive forces are what drive innovation, better terms, more features, faster timelines, harder work..on and on ... and on

"Competition" is a guiding principle for progress in a capitalist system.

 

[I7guy]

App developers, governments, etc. are the ones that get the most attention in news articles and such but plenty of "regular folks" complain about it on forums like this one. People complain about companies making "too much money" especially if they feel the companies are doing so in any sort of greedy monopolistic, competition stifling manner.

Companies do have a monopoly on their own products.

Given Apple's mobile OS dominance/duopoly,

There are literally dozens of cell phone manufacturers, each capable of having their own operating system.

many would prefer to see Apple open the iOS doors to competing app stores and let more of an open market decide what a fair commission would be.

I would like to see Apple open up also. I do not want to see Apple regulated such that apple===android.

Consumers and developers may overwhelming still choose Apple's App Store (even if the commission rates don't change) but at least there would be choice.

The choice you are discussing is not choice and innovation stifling, imo.

Apple should have the technical capabilities to pull this off "safely" for its users but they seem to prefer not to do it even if means dealing with potential lawsuits, public criticisms, etc.

Apple has the right what they want (at least if it's legal which can vary by country, circumstance, etc.) and people have the right to complain/criticize what Apple does or doesn't do, others can disagree, and before you know it there are hundreds of posts on the topic.

Yup.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

Except we already have an example of consumer preference. On Android, almost no one uses alternative app stores or sideloading outside of China. Consumers aren't the ones demanding these changes.

So there is not really much of a threat to the App Store business provided the option altogether. It is not the crumble of the ecossystem as some put it.

Consumers don’t demand these changes because all of it is obfuscated from the users. Make the “tax” explicit in the bill and they will. Better not right?

User aren’t also demanding changes to the way MacOS works in this respect but you should have listened to Creg in the last web summit.

 

[I7guy]

Stop it - this is almost trolling

You know damned well that competitive forces are what drive innovation, better terms, more features, faster timelines, harder work..on and on ... and on

"Competition" is a guiding principle for progress in a capitalist system.

Competition is a driving force. But competition through regulation is not, because some else's property is being used for gratis. So let android open up multiple app stores, nobody is stopping them.

 

[BaldiMac]

Stop it - this is almost trolling

You know damned well that competitive forces are what drive innovation, better terms, more features, faster timelines, harder work..on and on ... and on

"Competition" is a guiding principle for progress in a capitalist system.

But we're talking about competition between stores. What effect can that have outside of pricing for consumers? And pricing is already low.

 

[MacBH928]

would love to see Musk create a FOSS iOS competitor with 3% tax on app store purchases. Competition is good. He certainly has the money to do it.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

Except we already have an example of consumer preference. On Android, almost no one uses alternative app stores or sideloading outside of China. Consumers aren't the ones demanding these changes.

So there is not really much of a threat to the App Store business provided the option altogether. The security threat if any is minimal.

Consumers don’t demand these changes because all of it is obfuscated from the users. Make the “tax” explicit in the bill and they will. Better not right?

User aren’t also demanding changes to the way MacOS works in this respect but you should have listened to Greg in the last web summit.

You can see the half truths being played here. If the issue is user security why demand a 30% revenue share? Aren’t user paying a premium on device for it already? Why take out the right of direct commercial representation in App … is it necessary? Of course not. Since when direct representation, commercial or not is a security hazard by default in a democracy? The fact is when it comes to the App Store demanded revenue share, its not about security, the device owner access at parity is the key product being sold ... the tariff is higher than gas, petrol and electricity altogether.

The way I see it at its core Greg securitarian vision fundamentally roadblocking direct digital representation for agency (forget the 30% and the conflict of interests) is against any democratic constitution. Is this the best we can come up with for security?

This the perfect example why engineers should not be in charge of policy. Yet responsible to find the best solutions within the policy.

 

[JGIGS]

Tesla's are way overpriced by about 52% - he should adjust prices immediately. You don't like Tesla pricing or interior finish? Don't buy it (I don't). You do no like Apple's 30% fee. Develop for Android or write your own OS and develop your phone. I do not believe Tesla or Apple are monopolies.

Gonna disagree on the Apple part. The ios market is way to big for small developers to not create for. And come on they can't afford the overhead to create they're own phone. Maybe the big boys but not the little guys. Even for the big guys this would be a waste of resources the market isn't going to shift to them from Android or Apple anytime soon it's way to mature.

And lets be real no one is buying a phone from just one developer for their particular app.

 

[OnawaAfrica]

Elon Musk's car prices are higher then they should be too. I think he should sell his cars for cost. LITERALLY.

Clearly, businesses should not be allowed to make profits on the goods and services they provide. Obviously it cost nothing to produce an SDK, host the App Store, support the customers.

But you know what really is infinitely more expensive than it should be? Tesla's Full Self Driving feature. Selling a non-existent feature for $10K (or is it $12K now?) should be criminal. At least the App Store existed before Apple tried to make money on it.

it costs nothing to create a SDK??? Excuse me? The Hours someone sits and programs an SDK and Software doesnt cost anything? u dont know anything about it. Work Costs, Hosting Costs Electricity/Servicing/Internet Connectivity/ and someone who sits on support chats and lines is not supposed to get payd anything???????

 

[BaldiMac]

it costs nothing to create a SDK??? Excuse me? The Hours someone sits and programs an SDK and Software doesnt cost anything? u dont know anything about it. Work Costs, Hosting Costs Electricity/Servicing/Internet Connectivity/ and someone who sits on support chats and lines is not supposed to get payd anything???????

I think you missed the sarcasm there.

 

[OnawaAfrica]

30% + you need to own a mac to create apps with Swift or XCode

ya how else u wana get the SDK for iOS?

 

[OnawaAfrica]

I think you missed the sarcasm there.

quite possible

 

[sideshowuniqueuser]

Interesting observation/ somewhat fair point

But at the same time, What are the impacts of Sideloading an app on iOS vs installing an app on macOS outside of App Store

…vs Sideloading self driving apps / tweaks etc

Not really comparable as for what’s at stake (imo)

I meant more along the lines of Tesla suddenly deciding that one particular feature should be nixed, and bam, it's done, your car just got changed and you don't get a say in it. Or hey, we are going to have a feature where you can remove traction control 100%, but um, nope, it's not 100%, no way buddy, we aren't letting you take your car onto a race track and have 100% control of it.

 

[wbeasley]

Tesla charges a HUGE premium for a car that has worse paint than any Honda and worse build quality than a Geo Metro. Seriously, the panel gaps are horrendous and the paint generally comes from the factory orange-peeled. There are frequently missing and mis-fit trim pieces.

Yes their customers are dumb enough to accept that and defend it.

I'm sure he'll cut the premium markup on all Tesla products.

In Australia we get Chinese made Teslas.
And the paint and panel gaps are great.

Compared a lot of EVs.
Tesla Model 3 is a bit too minimal (but surprisingly you get used to it quicker than you might think).
They will have to start adding things in to compete.
No colour selectable comfort lighting?
No HUD?
A screen interface that could improve with user configuration... different drivers like different info on hand. And positioning of interface elements. Yes some bits need to be there but with Profiles, you should be able to select your preferred layout. Even to some degree. Widget like maybe? Display basic info and tap to expand rather than hunt through apps list.