Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
I'd rather these emails not be made public, but I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed reading Schiller's smackdown of that guy's completely buying into the warped view of Apple at the time.

They didn't need some emergency meeting in the hopes of changing everything about how Apple worked. They needed better marketing to carry the public's perception through inevitable periods between major product advances.
 
Advertising agencies should not have the arrogance to propose "bigger screens" or "new looks". Ads should support a company, not run it. Marketing and the latest fad shouldn't influence future decisions. Overpaid suits.

I think the whole samsung popularity is proof of idiocracy. The average becomes the norm.

Apple should do it's best to stay in the market segment most people don't even understand. A leage of their own, where decisions are made that have so much sense the senseless fail to understand it alltogether.

Read back the comments on the original iphone announcements: you see nay sayers and applauders, nothing in between. It's the "jesus phone" or "absolute crap". If you get that kind of responses, you are sure that your product isn't average.

I agree that this particular agency was way out of line with their specific comments, especially likening the 2013 situation (one of real achievement, leadership and abundance) to 1997, the nadir of Apple innovation and status. But you are way out of line in pontificating that ad agencies or marketing in general should have no say in product development, how a company is run, or future decisions. This shows a fundamental lack of understanding about what real marketing is, and is 180 degrees from the truth about how great business/brands run. Companies that flatly ignore feedback from their sales and marketing departments go out of business almost as fast as companies who are slaves to them.

Steve Jobs himself was a master of marketing, and used it as effectively internally as he did externally. A classic example is the "Think Differently" campaign. It undoubtedly did a great job of beating the drum for Apple when they had very little product innovation to crow about, but more importantly it internally defined for Apple and it's employees who they were, what their purpose was, how singular that is, and how high the standard was for their collective and individual conduct/productivity moving forward. Branding isn't just putting lipstick on a pig. It's deciding who and what you want to be, then manifesting it and letting the world know about it.

Jobs often demonized mindless devotion to focus groups, design by committee, and slavishly following trends, and these have often been wrongly characterized as "marketing". But that's as empty headed as saying Android is open and Apple is closed. A bunch of unproductive yammering. As a discipline that is focused on understanding people (consumers), what they want/need/think, and the current state of the market/competition in terms of satisfying/influencing those things, marketing is uniquely qualified to positively influence everything from product development to employee behavior, as well as external communication and sales.

Highly technical people often aren't intuitively gifted at knowing/understanding people, and "people" people often lack technical savvy or practical imagination. Apple was blessed with a leader who had both amazing facility for technical subjects as well as deep, intuitive understanding of what people want/need/think. And that blessing has led to the curse of Apple fans, and perhaps Apple itself, believing that ALL product engineers should be able to perform such a freakish double whammy. But Steve Jobs' don't come along that often. And even geniuses like Jony Ive need counter-influences like Jobs to keep them balanced or, left to their own devices, they can create things like the chilly, under-intuitive, emotionally "flat" iOS7.

When practiced by talented, disciplined people, marketing and engineering are not natural enemies. And good companies know that, which is why most of them leverage the strengths of a wide variety of "thinking types" to innovate and execute both products and communication. Balance is key to success. And since uber-hybrid all-in-ones like Jobs are few and far between, being open to the influence of a talented creative/human/marketing voice is a healthy practice. Clearly in this case, the specific TBWA partner who penned that letter wasn't that voice (though to be fair, many past TBWA/Chiat/Day partners have been). Hopefully Angela Errands, and Apple's future agency partners, will be.
 
I think many of us have become so oblivious to many of these ads, with little to no influence or impact on our purchasing decisions. What really influences our decision to buy an iPhone or Galaxy is design, software, how entrenched we are in an ecosystem, larger screens and perhaps most importantly, affordability. That's the reason Android phones dominate in Europe, Asia and other regions of the world outside the US. In other words, ads are not as important as they once were, especially with younger people watching less TV than even ten years ago.
 
When I worked I was a supplier to advertising agencies including TBWA in London and reading they email to Apple I am surprised yet heartened to see that they really talk the same BS to everybody. Typical agency autopilot garbage.
 
Give jrwizzle a break, he is not going to get it no matter what logical, and correct, argument you come back with.

Many Americans think exactly just like him, I'm also American but have travelled extensively and live overseas. I have the benefit of understanding the world does not revolve around the US.
jrwizzle is absolute not like what you are calling him. YOU are the one not getting his point, I feel sad that here he is trying to have an intellectual discussion...
 
I've been an Apple user since the 70's and those Samsung commericals although upsetting :mad:to me were to their credit very smart. What was more upsetting than the Samsung commericals.....the lack of response from Apple.:confused: Ultimately Apple should have directed their long time ad agency to pump it up quickly. It was obivous they have failed so maybe it's time for some new blood. Phil Schiller waited to long for a serious conversation with their agency. A blind person could hear Samsung commericals were uping Apple's with creativity. Hire the agency Samsung is using; it appears they have better talent.

Yeah, I agree, they needed a response and were just too slow and too weak with it. These emails show they were well aware of the Samsung advertising blitz. At the very least Apple should have pulled out a bit more loose pocket change and just gotten more of their ads in front of more faces. I remember for a while there after Samsung started that campaign, you would watch a 1 hour show anywhere on tv and there would literally be like 15 Samsung ads in that hour, often multiple ads in the same commercial block.
 
Last edited:
Android phones dominate in Europe, Asia and other regions of the world outside the US.
Reading this is appears that Apple should be sacking the agencies responsible for their non-English language localisations. Australia appears to be keener on iPhones than the USA, and the UK isn't that far behind the two of them. The rest of Europe, meanwhile, is a write-off.
 
I dont like the fact that these emails are being presented to the public. Even just a few words can give insight of how a company functions internally and can be of great advantage to competing companies' future strategies and in understanding their "enemy".

I guess the whole rumor/leaks websites thing is bad news for Apple, even tho I admit that I do like "knowing" way before time of announcement.

If there was NO leakage at all, and Apple wouldn't have talked about future possibilities like Steve announced so proudly (living room potential), then Apple would be 2x or even 3x further ahead of any competition. And Samsung wouldn't have come out with this stupid smart watch.

:confused:
 
Apple really should let them go. The "Your Verse" series is awful.

That's apples fault. They approved it.

Also, apple fail to realise that their products aren't 'new' anymore. Each iteration is a slight variation on the last. From a consumer point of view the iPhone is predictable, not 'magical'.

Apple are still selling the iPhone to people who don't have a smartphone, not to people who have had them for years.

THAT is why Samsung is killing apple in marketing.
 
You're writing to the Senior VP of Worldwide Marketing at Apple and you decide it's not worth the effort to write in a professional manner using capitals?

I have little doubt if Steve Jobs were around, he would give them an ultimatum - do better or you're fired.

please, grammar police, stop obsessing on the writer's use of all lowercase! you're just embarrassing yourselves. trying to assign meaning to such ephemera is pointless. and do you really think you're qualified to make a useful correlation between use of capital letters and writing quality anyway? the agency's letter was a poorly argued case for a bad idea. period. judge the content of what they wrote, not how high the letters went.

creative people break the "rules" of grammar (and life) all the time. e.e. cummings wrote in lowercase, and jobs himself referred to apple products without an article (words like "the") and treated them like proper nouns (e.g. a place or a person's name). he'd say things like "today, we're introducing ipod". that's insane, really, and a complete departure from standard english. at the time people even called him out for it, but he wasn't put on earth to live by other people's rules. even the alternating letter height of iPod, iPhone and iPad would make strunk & white turn in their graves, yet those little quirks of syntax now delight apple devotees, who accept them as defacto aspects of apple's iconoclastic nature. if by chance some long lost documents wound up revealing that steve jobs actually preferred to write in lowercase, i'm sure most of the grammar dorks on the board would change their tune in a heartbeat.

agencies are paid to be innovative, which often means breaking rules. all that your obsession with criticizing the writer's lowercase style does is broadcast to the world your own slavish devotion to conformity, and your abject fear of breaking any rule, even one as esoteric and toothless as starting written sentences with the big version of a letter.

i imagine that's just how "pc" would react if he got an all-lowercase email from "mac".
 
You mean like iPod touch and Mac mini? Sheldon on Big Bang Theory had it right in the latest episode about Microsoft calling the new XBox "One". Apple took about 1 second to think up the "touch" and "mini" names, instead of Touch and Mini.

No nothing like that. One is a private memo to a client where proper grammar is expected. The other are marketing moniker where plays on words and uppercase and lower case letters in places unexpectedly is used to catch attention in a positive way.
 
What ads was Phil specifically upset about?

I find these released documents fascinating and it shows that Apple is not above the fray in terms of competitive aspects that other companies obsess about. I'm curious which ads specifically did Phil find to be poor? I can't quite recall early 2013 iPhone commercials....perhaps he was thinking all of the original iPhone 5 spots were subpar?
 
Don't understand what you're saying here.
Are you saying that even though the commercials do "show how the products are used in boring (your view?) every day life", they fail to "connect" with the viewer?
They don't actually show the products in every day use. The ad attempts to give the impression that people with Apple products are poised to do great things for mankind. With so many people still feeling the effects of the recession that kind of grandiose thinking is out of step with people's lives.

In contrast, the older Apple ads, showcased an adventurous lifestyle that was within the grasp of many who viewed those ads. That's the difference.
 
I dont like the fact that these emails are being presented to the public. Even just a few words can give insight of how a company functions internally and can be of great advantage to competing companies' future strategies and in understanding their "enemy".

I guess the whole rumor/leaks websites thing is bad news for Apple, even tho I admit that I do like "knowing" way before time of announcement.

If there was NO leakage at all, and Apple wouldn't have talked about future possibilities like Steve announced so proudly (living room potential), then Apple would be 2x or even 3x further ahead of any competition. And Samsung wouldn't have come out with this stupid smart watch.

:confused:

this isn't a leak - it was part of the legal discovery process in the latest law suit Apple filed against Samsung...it becomes public record.
 
You're writing to the Senior VP of Worldwide Marketing at Apple and you decide it's not worth the effort to write in a professional manner using capitals?

I have little doubt if Steve Jobs were around, he would give them an ultimatum - do better or you're fired.

I'm sure you're right. But I doubt it would have had anything to do with upper case letters or the lack of them. I don't think Steve would've given a crap about that.
 
Hmm...I wonder why its only now more people are using Smartphones than dumbphones.

If, as you say, companies were far more innovative back in 2000 than Apple has ever been....

You seem to think I'm saying no other smartphones existed before Apple. That's not true. Simply that in 2013, more than 1 billion smartphones were in use around the world. That boom, that market did not start with the devices produced in 2000. That boom, this industry of multi-touch, constantly connected, daily used by everyone and their mother - devices, began in 2007 with the iPhone.

Well now your putting words in my mouth, as well as moving the goal posts to suite your argument.

Please go and quote where exactly I stated companies were far more innovative in 2000 than Apple has ever been...

I'll be waiting for you response to that!

And your argument for smartphone usage is flawed, because the mobile phone market would have grown to what it is without Apple anyway, you are still under the impression that Apple has somehow invented the smartphone, when it did not.
Also this magical connected world has existed outside the US since 2000, as I already said.

Please stop trying to make the iPhone out to be something it really is not.

But...
(3) And they DID create the modern smartphone and tablet FORM FACTORS as there may have been a few that looked SOMEWHAT like the iPhone and iPad, but now EVERYTHING looks like the iPhone and iPad (again, FORM FACTOR wise).


So first you state Apple invented the tablet form factor, then in the same sentence state that tablets already existed that looked like, a tablet?

As for the smartphone, erm, in regards to a small device with a touchscreen yeah they existed for years before the iPhone.
You need to change your wording to design and aesthetics, not form factor.
 
Last edited:
I'm a bit shocked, but many that's because of my naivety towards the details of law.
I don't understand how this internal and private corporate mailings and conversations are presented publicly like this. How does a company (competition) has access to this private conversations from another rival company and present them against the other company? Is that even legal? It must be, if it's presented in a court of law. But it doesn't make sense to me. This is almost the same, almost, if someone private letters are made public.
This type of conversations is a normal, day by day talk in all big and small commercial companies, they have to discuss this things, they worry about things and they have to resolve them. Taking this private mailings and conversations out of context and exposing them to the public is very troubling and confusing. Because they can be misinterpreted and used wrongly, like they are using them right now, to confuse and mislead people's opinions.
 
I agree that this particular agency was way out of line with their specific comments, especially likening the 2013 situation (one of real achievement, leadership and abundance) to 1997, the nadir of Apple innovation and status. But you are way out of line in pontificating that ad agencies or marketing in general should have no say in product development, how a company is run, or future decisions. This shows a fundamental lack of understanding about what real marketing is, and is 180 degrees from the truth about how great business/brands run. Companies that flatly ignore feedback from their sales and marketing departments go out of business almost as fast as companies who are slaves to them.

Steve Jobs himself was a master of marketing, and used it as effectively internally as he did externally. A classic example is the "Think Differently" campaign. It undoubtedly did a great job of beating the drum for Apple when they had very little product innovation to crow about, but more importantly it internally defined for Apple and it's employees who they were, what their purpose was, how singular that is, and how high the standard was for their collective and individual conduct/productivity moving forward. Branding isn't just putting lipstick on a pig. It's deciding who and what you want to be, then manifesting it and letting the world know about it.

Jobs often demonized mindless devotion to focus groups, design by committee, and slavishly following trends, and these have often been wrongly characterized as "marketing". But that's as empty headed as saying Android is open and Apple is closed. A bunch of unproductive yammering. As a discipline that is focused on understanding people (consumers), what they want/need/think, and the current state of the market/competition in terms of satisfying/influencing those things, marketing is uniquely qualified to positively influence everything from product development to employee behavior, as well as external communication and sales.

Highly technical people often aren't intuitively gifted at knowing/understanding people, and "people" people often lack technical savvy or practical imagination. Apple was blessed with a leader who had both amazing facility for technical subjects as well as deep, intuitive understanding of what people want/need/think. And that blessing has led to the curse of Apple fans, and perhaps Apple itself, believing that ALL product engineers should be able to perform such a freakish double whammy. But Steve Jobs' don't come along that often. And even geniuses like Jony Ive need counter-influences like Jobs to keep them balanced or, left to their own devices, they can create things like the chilly, under-intuitive, emotionally "flat" iOS7.

When practiced by talented, disciplined people, marketing and engineering are not natural enemies. And good companies know that, which is why most of them leverage the strengths of a wide variety of "thinking types" to innovate and execute both products and communication. Balance is key to success. And since uber-hybrid all-in-ones like Jobs are few and far between, being open to the influence of a talented creative/human/marketing voice is a healthy practice. Clearly in this case, the specific TBWA partner who penned that letter wasn't that voice (though to be fair, many past TBWA/Chiat/Day partners have been). Hopefully Angela Errands, and Apple's future agency partners, will be.

The marketing hipsters appeal to the masses, the average, the uninspiring. And it shows: they want gimmicks and flashy stuff to sell.. Some crap like wave to unlock, blink, tap phones to transfer stuff, or a quadcore that is pissed on by the iPhone but meh; it sounds cool.

The original iPhone had zero features that didn't exist before. And at launch, haters filled macrumors. But some just "got it", and they powered apple's success.

Marketing needs to find out what that feeling is, the secret magical difference, and show it to people, no more, no less.
 
The lack of capital letters from an Ad agency makes me sad.

WHy? They are still millionaires and we are still nobodies... Youz can jab all my grammars and spelling my stakes for a billionaire dollars plc
 
Shiller is a lunatic. He said that the cracks that were showing up in some G4 cubes were not defects in the plastic but goddamn striations like the veins in a flower pedal.
I don't know what the hell that has to do with the article....
Slow news day, huh.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.