Eninem's Publisher Sues Apple

[BagelTycoon]

License request from TBWA/Chiat/Day

Originally posted by rspress
I doubt he will see 10 million. It will be settled out of court and Eminem will get lots of publicity that he does not have to buy. Hell, we are talking about him in a Mac group.

Again, Chiat/Day was the party that had the responsibility to clear the material with the publisher...

I agree. Just take a look at pp. 22-25 of the complaint in the lawsuit:

TBWA/Chiat/Day's business affairs person says:

"We are pursuing licenses for our other spots for songs such as Ill [sic] Be There, Get the Party Started and My Generation. Licenses for each of these are in progess, and other licenses will be pursued...Its [sic] a great partnership..."

Then you've got another TBWA/Chiat/Day guy apparently confirming that:

"you guys are a definite "no" for the campaign as it is (The young boy rapping "Lose Yourself")."

But there's no way M&M is going to get anything close to big $$ in a settlement like the $10M his lawyers sought. No judge or jury is gonna feel inclined to give the guy that kind of $$.

 

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by ph8te
Yeah, but do you really think the Wright-Brothers, Leonardo Da-Vnci, Einstein and even our own Steve were in it for the quick buck? I think not. If you have a job or careeer where financial gain is your primary concern, then you are waisting your time. Financial gain is always of secondary nature. The most important thing is to have fun in what your'e doing. Steve and Co. have more money than they can "reasonably" spend in a life-time, so the only logical reason for them to continue what they are doing is because they like it and they're having fun.

But, I do agree that if I pour blood, sweat and tears into something, it would not be fair for others to profit from it and I get left in the dark. Eminem certainly made enough money from his song so he can't fell left out and screwed. Anyway, a little boy singing a song, without the instrumental accompaniement and an obvious similarity is subliminal and I would find that sales of the single would have increased after the event...

Protecting IP (be it software or song lyrics) has nothing to do w/making a quick buck. It has everything to do w/protecting and making sure you keep control over what is yours. Would the Wright brothers, Da Vinci, or Jobs achieved what they did if they had to work a 9-5 job their entire life because there was no way for them to make an income from their brilliant ideas? Lets take the iPod for example. If any company was freely allowed to make exact clones of the iPod w/o giving Apple a dime they could sell them well below what Apple sells them for because they didn't spend millions of dollars to R&D that product. What is Apple's motivation, or any company's motivation, to create new products if they have no way to recoup the potentially huge R&D costs associated w/creating that product? If you spent years writing a novel, making a film, or perfecting a painting shouldn't you have the right to say who can use your work and who cannot? If someone uses your work for commercial use w/o permission shouldn't you have the right to be compensated for it's use? I didn't get into editing because I want to be rich I got into editing because I love storytelling. But that doesn't mean I don't want to be able to make a living editing or that I don't want to be fairly compensated for my work.

And, again, you are missing the point of the suit. It has NOTHING to do w/a kid singing a song. It has EVERYTHING to do w/possible unauthorized use of copyrighted material. There is no such thing as a free lunch (especially when it comes to commercial use). I don't care if they used the whole song, the whole album, or just a few lyrics. That material is not the properity of Apple so they do not have the right to use it unless they recieved permission. Apple can't use MM's lyrics w/o permission any more than Steve Jobs can just hop in MM's car and drive around in it all day w/o permission. It's called intellectual property for a reason.


Lethal

 

[crookedcharlie]

Re: Re: Re: I'm waiting

Originally posted by macboygrey
Just a thought, but aren't we getting a SLIGHT bit violent in our defense? *runs and hides*

*plays with fire* Maybe it's because you listen to songs about killing mothers/girlfriends.

LOL.

I wish listening to violent music made me violent. I'd immediately switch over to songs about sleeping with supermodels.

 

[~Shard~]

Re: Re: Re: I'm waiting

Originally posted by macboygrey
*plays with fire* Maybe it's because you listen to songs about killing mothers/girlfriends.

Don't worry, I'll keep you company around your campfire. 😉 I honestly don't know what kind of person finds joy and entertainment in listening to lyrics regarding such topics. Violence towards mothers, girlfriends - those are just 2 of many examples. Who finds these topics "cool"? Regardless of their musical talent and impact, it's very challenging for me to respect someone who produces such material. That's just me though! 😎

 

[AngryLawnGnome]

This is crap. Eminem - you don't need the money. What's your problem?

 

[rspress]

Re: Re: Re: I'm waiting

Originally posted by macboygrey
Just a thought, but aren't we getting a SLIGHT bit violent in our defense? *runs and hides*

*plays with fire* Maybe it's because you listen to songs about killing mothers/girlfriends.

I don't think that Eminem is a great artist. Too many Rap artists do very little to craft the sound of their music. Too often it is done by producers, recording engineers and hired guns. Leaving the "artist" to simply talk through the tracks that someone else has laid down.

Then there are the true rap/hip hop artists that actually do take a large part in crafting their sound. Ones that actually use musicians instead of one person with a drum machine and a sampler. These are the rap artists that I like to listen to. Artists like the Missy Elliot, the Beastie Boys and the many others who take rap to the next level.

Songs about cruising with the boyz and slaplin Ho's are as tired as many of the rap videos these days. They are becoming as dated and self mocking as the last days of the hair metal bands in the early 90's. They are like Styx and Journey...Corporate Rap where money, not music is the bottom line.

 

[mjones4th]

Originally posted by sjk
So, when was the publisher's claim actually proven? Are you're implying we've all missed something you seem to know with certainty? 🙄

Testy aren't we? I apologize for concluding that apple had in fact violated his publishing rights without wi=aiting for a settlement. But I bet you believe Scott Peterson did it, hmmm?

 

[mjones4th]

Re: I'm waiting

Originally posted by The Dreaming
Please musically back up your argument that rap is indeed music.

the mere inclusion of toned instruments, even the lowly Casio Portatone keyboard, qualifies it s music. Everything else is subjective. By the semantic definition, african tribal music is not music.

Originally posted by The Dreaming
Also, you stated that rock n' roll was a rip off of the blues... what do you think hip-hop is a rip off of??? Any clue? I'll give you a hint, old soul music and disco. It will do you well to listen to some old albums.

Umm no.

hip hop is a development of the griot traditions of Africa, and the poetic traditions of all world cultures:

I came into this world high as a bird
From second hand cocaine powder, I know it sounds absurd
I never tooted but its in my veins while the rest of the country bungees off bridges without no snap-back
And bitches they say they need that to shake their fannies at the ass club
They go the ther route, turn eachother out, burn eachother out
Where a bonafide ***** like me can't even get a backrub these days
Ain't that bleak on their part?
Well let me hold it down 'cause they shut you down when you speak from your heart

Ooh, I fear the battle's just begun
Ooh, though we're here someday we will be gone
So I'm hoping, wishing, praying
To keep my faith in You, in You

Outkast, 1996

 

[~Shard~]

Re: I'm waiting

Originally posted by The Dreaming
Please musically back up your argument that rap is indeed music.

Although I'm not a fan of Eminem myself, nor rap/hip-hop in general, if you want someone to "muscially back up" the statement that "rap is indeed music", I'm afraid that's far too simple to do. By definition, music is "The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre." Simply put, music is "organized sound". This is what differentiates it from noise, which is unorganized sound.

As I said, I'm not a fan of hip-hop and all that myself, but you my friend don't have a leg to stand on if you want to get into an arguement that rap isn't music - by raw definition, it is, and that is an argument you will always lose.

Now whether it's good music or not is another question... 😉

 

[Spizzo]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm waiting

Originally posted by rspress

Then there are the true rap/hip hop artists that actually do take a large part in crafting their sound. Ones that actually use musicians instead of one person with a drum machine and a sampler. These are the rap artists that I like to listen to. Artists like the Missy Elliot, the Beastie Boys and the many others who take rap to the next level.

I believe that Em does spend a lot of time crafting his sound, probably more that most. yeah, it sounds a little like Dre, but who did he learn from? And why can't great music be made with a just drum machine/sampler?

 

[rspress]

Re: Re: I'm waiting

Originally posted by mjones4th
the mere inclusion of toned instruments, even the lowly Casio Portatone keyboard, qualifies it s music. Everything else is subjective. By the semantic definition, african tribal music is not music.



Umm no.

hip hop is a development of the griot traditions of Africa, and the poetic traditions of all world cultures:

I came into this world high as a bird
From second hand cocaine powder, I know it sounds absurd
I never tooted but its in my veins while the rest of the country bungees off bridges without no snap-back
And bitches they say they need that to shake their fannies at the ass club
They go the ther route, turn eachother out, burn eachother out
Where a bonafide ***** like me can't even get a backrub these days
Ain't that bleak on their part?
Well let me hold it down 'cause they shut you down when you speak from your heart

Ooh, I fear the battle's just begun
Ooh, though we're here someday we will be gone
So I'm hoping, wishing, praying
To keep my faith in You, in You

Outkast, 1996

Or in the words of Mac user Sir-Mix-Alot:

so ladies
YAH!
ladies
YAH!
so u wanna roll my mercedes
YAH!
so turn around
stick it out
even white boys got 2 shout
baby got back

: I liked this song the first time I heard it.

To the people who are saying that rap is not music you could not be more wrong. It is not always the best music but it is sometimes better than 'nsync, Kenny G, Barely Manenough...er Barry Manilow, many thrash metal bands and a lot of country music.

I try to listen to all kinds of music. Rock is my favorite but I also listen to Rap, RnB, Jazz, Classical, Electronic, Metal, 80's retro, Country, Classic Rock, Motown, Reggae, dub, house, ska and many others. I even make my own. As long as it is good music I will listen to it. If the talent is there, the song is good....but just because an artist is popular does not mean they are talented or even do much of anything on their album. I think Grammy Award winners Milli Vanilli proved this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

 

[The Dreaming]

Re: Re: I'm waiting

Originally posted by ~Shard~
Although I'm not a fan of Eminem myself, nor rap/hip-hop in general, if you want someone to "muscially back up" the statement that "rap is indeed music", I'm afraid that's far too simple to do. By definition, music is "The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre." Simply put, music is "organized sound". This is what differentiates it from noise, which is unorganized sound.

As I said, I'm not a fan of hip-hop and all that myself, but you my friend don't have a leg to stand on if you want to get into an arguement that rap isn't music - by raw definition, it is, and that is an argument you will always lose.

Now whether it's good music or not is another question... 😉

Artificial and prerecorded sounds do not create musicians. For instance, if I play the guitar, that makes me a musician. If I play a recording of Ferdinand Morton, then that does not make me a musician. Hip-hop notoriously uses prerecorded and artificial music. –In now way does this merit musicianship. Since Eminem isn’t an instrumentalist, your argument is only valid if he is considered a vocal-instrumentalist. This is highly debatable… but among fellow musicians, it’s not.

 

[gwangung]

Re: Re: Re: I'm waiting

Originally posted by The Dreaming
Artificial and prerecorded sounds do not create musicians.

Folks who use synthesizers aren't musicians?

Y'all getting silly now....

 

[The Dreaming]

Re: Re: I'm waiting

Originally posted by mjones4th
the mere inclusion of toned instruments, even the lowly Casio Portatone keyboard, qualifies it s music. Everything else is subjective. By the semantic definition, african tribal music is not music.



Umm no.

hip hop is a development of the griot traditions of Africa, and the poetic traditions of all world cultures:

I came into this world high as a bird
From second hand cocaine powder, I know it sounds absurd
I never tooted but its in my veins while the rest of the country bungees off bridges without no snap-back
And bitches they say they need that to shake their fannies at the ass club
They go the ther route, turn eachother out, burn eachother out
Where a bonafide ***** like me can't even get a backrub these days
Ain't that bleak on their part?
Well let me hold it down 'cause they shut you down when you speak from your heart

Ooh, I fear the battle's just begun
Ooh, though we're here someday we will be gone
So I'm hoping, wishing, praying
To keep my faith in You, in You

Outkast, 1996

If you must contend that this work is poetry, so be it. However, unless this piece contains the work of a vocalist or instrumentalist, then it’s not music. –And don’t try and tell me this artist or genre redefined the definition of music. This type of work isn’t even relevant by respectable musicians, and you’re out of your league if you think such rubbish.

 

[The Dreaming]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm waiting

Originally posted by gwangung
Folks who use synthesizers aren't musicians?

Y'all getting silly now....

If an artist's sole work centers on synthesizers, then he/she is at best a synthetic artist. I presume it’s a matter of perspective. If I attended a concert and the band sang atop the background of one of their albums, I would walk out. If many of the Eminem crowd were faced with the same scenario, they wouldn’t know the difference, or care to venture out from the rock they live under, to discover that it gets better than this. I have higher standards for music and just expect more.

 

[Counterfit]

Re: Re: I'm waiting

Originally posted by crookedcharlie
Do I think Eminem will be relevant 40 years from now? I have no idea. I'd imagine he will, simply because he's produced a well-received body of work

So did the New Kids On The Block 😛

 

[Counterfit]

Okay, I hope this will help end the music bashing, but here goes:
TO EACH THEIR ****ING OWN!
Now stop ****ing arguing. SHEESH! 😡

 

[macboygrey]

*argue argue argue*

 

[LethalWolfe]

Re: Re: Re: I'm waiting

Originally posted by The Dreaming
Artificial and prerecorded sounds do not create musicians. For instance, if I play the guitar, that makes me a musician. If I play a recording of Ferdinand Morton, then that does not make me a musician. Hip-hop notoriously uses prerecorded and artificial music. –In now way does this merit musicianship. Since Eminem isn’t an instrumentalist, your argument is only valid if he is considered a vocal-instrumentalist. This is highly debatable… but among fellow musicians, it’s not.

Someone could teach a monkey or program a robot to play a guitar but that doesn't make the monkey or the robot a musician. Ranking musicians by the tools they use to is kinda stupid don't you think?

How do you define an "artificial sound?" Do you consider anything non-acoustic artificial? What is the "true" sound of an electric guitar? Do you consider any sound reocorded sound artificial? I mean, different mics will give you different sounds so which sound is the "real" sound and which sound is the "artificial" sound? What about just basic proccessing and mixing (let alone the typical post proccessing that a typical album gets)? What about effects pedals?

Is Neil Peart less of a musican because part his drum kit is made up of synth drums and triggers? Was Jimi Hendrix not a musican becaue he used lots of effects on his guitar?

For someone who, I'm assuming, thinks of themself as a musician your elitest, narrow definition of what is "music" is, in a word, sad. And attempting to speak for all musicians is just egotistical.


Lethal

 

[junior]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm waiting

Originally posted by LethalWolfe
Someone could teach a monkey or program a robot to play a guitar but that doesn't make the monkey or the robot a musician. Ranking musicians by the tools they use to is kinda stupid don't you think?

How do you define an "artificial sound?" Do you consider anything non-acoustic artificial? What is the "true" sound of an electric guitar? Do you consider any sound reocorded sound artificial? I mean, different mics will give you different sounds so which sound is the "real" sound and which sound is the "artificial" sound? What about just basic proccessing and mixing (let alone the typical post proccessing that a typical album gets)? What about effects pedals?

Is Neil Peart less of a musican because part his drum kit is made up of synth drums and triggers? Was Jimi Hendrix not a musican becaue he used lots of effects on his guitar?

For someone who, I'm assuming, thinks of themself as a musician your elitest, narrow definition of what is "music" is, in a word, sad. And attempting to speak for all musicians is just egotistical.


Lethal

Well said.

 

[~Shard~]

Re: Re: Re: I'm waiting

Originally posted by The Dreaming
Artificial and prerecorded sounds do not create musicians. For instance, if I play the guitar, that makes me a musician. If I play a recording of Ferdinand Morton, then that does not make me a musician. Hip-hop notoriously uses prerecorded and artificial music. –In now way does this merit musicianship. Since Eminem isn’t an instrumentalist, your argument is only valid if he is considered a vocal-instrumentalist. This is highly debatable… but among fellow musicians, it’s not.

You have completely missed the point of my post - well done. I suggest you read posts more thoroughly before responding to them. My post was regarding MUSIC and if rap was consider MUSIC or not. Feel free to go on your above rant regarding MUSICIANS, because they are 2 separate things, and I did not make one comment regarding musicians in my above post - I was simply addressing music in response to a previous post. Please read posts more closely in the future - everyone here will appreciate it, trust me.

 

[~Shard~]

Re: Re: Re: I'm waiting

Originally posted by The Dreaming
Artificial and prerecorded sounds do not create musicians. For instance, if I play the guitar, that makes me a musician. If I play a recording of Ferdinand Morton, then that does not make me a musician. Hip-hop notoriously uses prerecorded and artificial music. –In now way does this merit musicianship. Since Eminem isn’t an instrumentalist, your argument is only valid if he is considered a vocal-instrumentalist. This is highly debatable… but among fellow musicians, it’s not.

Oh, and what is "aritifical music" exactly? Your weak statement above is starting to reveal the transparency of your whole argument for every forum member to see. You might want to quit shooting yourself in the foot now. 😉 😛

 

[takao]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm waiting

Originally posted by ~Shard~
You might want to quit shooting yourself in the foot now. 😉 😛

or even better: annouce "G5 Powerbooks will be here next Tuesday !!!11!!! I Promise !!!1!... if not i will gnaw off my left foot !!!1!!" ;-)

 

[junior]

Re: Re: Re: I'm waiting

Originally posted by The Dreaming
Artificial and prerecorded sounds do not create musicians. For instance, if I play the guitar, that makes me a musician. If I play a recording of Ferdinand Morton, then that does not make me a musician. Hip-hop notoriously uses prerecorded and artificial music. –In now way does this merit musicianship. Since Eminem isn’t an instrumentalist, your argument is only valid if he is considered a vocal-instrumentalist. This is highly debatable? but among fellow musicians, it’s not.

By the way, you mentioned The Beatles being incomparable to Eminem in a previous post, and now your rant about 'artificial and pre-recorded sounds' reminded me of something.
Firstly, you're right when you say they're incomparable. Beatles really were pioneers (no sarcasm).
They were such incredible pioneers that they were one of the first, if not the first people to actually utilise 'artificial, pre-recorded sounds' for their live recordings and performances. Did you know that? I bet you didn't. I'm sure you now absolutely hate the Beatles.
It's fine if you don't like certain styles of music, but I don't think referring to certain genres and saying they are 'not music', and to ask for it to be proved wrong, won't get you very far.

 

[MillieWales]

How very 'off topic' of you chaps!

Go and check the title, this has NOTHING to do with arguments over musical (or non musical) ability.

Marc