Entry-Level 13-Inch MacBook Pro Updated With 8th-Gen Processors, Touch Bar, Touch ID, and T2 Security Chip

Discussion in 'MacRumors.com News Discussion' started by MacRumors, Jul 9, 2019.

  1. Dirtfarmer macrumors regular

    Jan 18, 2012
    How about a keyboard that doesn't have a double-digit failure rate?

    Anyone? Anyone?


  2. RotaryP7 macrumors 6502a

    Aug 31, 2011
    Miami, FL
    When was the last time they sold a MBP w/ such things? I remember I was able to upgrade my RAM on my 2010 model. Not since I believe.
  3. LordVic macrumors 603

    Sep 7, 2011
    I know the 2015 MBPro's had swappable storage. But the ram was soldered in this model.
  4. Zdigital2015 macrumors 68000

    Jul 14, 2015
    East Coast, United States
    The 13" MacBook Air had 2GB of soldered DRAM and I believe it had soldered storage as well when it was introduced in January 2008. Subsequent models have always had soldered DRAM and removable storage from Late 2008 to Mid 2017. The Late 2018 model now has soldered DRAM and storage.

    The MacBook Pro switched to soldered DRAM and removable storage with the introduction of the 15" Retina MacBook Pro in June of 2012. Both the 13" and the 15" have had soldered storage since that time and removable storage until the introductions of the 2016 MacBook Pro which moved to soldered storage as well. All non-Retina 13" and 15" MacBook Pros had SO-DIMM slots and removable storage (2.5" HDD or SSD).

    The MacBook had SO-DIMM slots and removable storage until it was discontinued in Mid 2011. The 2015-2017 12" MacBook had both soldered DRAM and soldered storage.

    In other words, soldered DRAM and storage is really not a new concept for Apple or its users, but for the MacBook Pro series, soldering both is a fairly recent development. Never mind that Apple used a proprietary SATA or PCIe slot for the MacBook Airs and MacBook Pro starting in Late 2010 (MacBook Air) all the way through Mid 2017 and the MacBook Pro did the same from 2012-2015, which made the storage technically "removable", but hardly easily replaceable without workarounds, power state hacks, adapters, using only specific m.2 blades, et al. with various level of performance degradation and gain, depending on which replacement is used.
  5. Zdigital2015 macrumors 68000

    Jul 14, 2015
    East Coast, United States
    You got statistics on the 2012-2015 MacBook Pro models as well as the 2015-2019 MacBook and MacBook Pros to back up that claim of double-digit failure rates or are you simply trying to be the squeakiest wheel on the forum?

    Tim Cook went to business school, but has never served as an "accountant". His focus has always been supply chain, fulfillment, operations related. The CFO at Apple is Luca Maestri - https://www.apple.com/leadership/luca-maestri/

    You might not like the way Apple is run now, but Steve Jobs must have because he is the one who recommended Tim Cook for the CEO job to the Board of Directors. Like it or not, Tim Cook is a huge part of the reason Apple still exists and has grown to its current size and scope. No one can replace Steve Jobs, but life happens, time marches on and things change. I don't like all of Apple's decisions, but Apple is strong, profitable, selling product and moving forward regardless. It could be a lot worse off, and it was...people seem to forget just how dire things were.

    Hashtags don't work here, go try Twitter.
  6. Zdigital2015 macrumors 68000

    Jul 14, 2015
    East Coast, United States
    I wouldn't hold my breath for Ice Lake shipping in significant volume this year. Right now is the time where PC OEMs would be expecting to hear about large scale volume from Intel and given the delays in the process, I am sure Intel would be trumpeting it to the world when they hit that milestone. We've seen scant news and Intel is still forging ahead with more and more CPUs based on 14nm and is moving up timetables on some. The best that Apple users might expect this year would be a revision to the 13" MacBook Air if Intel actually ships volume of the 9nm Y-Series ULV CPUs. The fact that Apple just shipped a brand new iteration of the 13" MacBook Pro with a 15w TDP Coffee Lake-based 8th Gen CPU and did nothing CPU wise with the 13" MacBook Air is telling of just how far behind Intel still is with 10nm. If 10nm is right around the corner, why introduce a new 14nm CPU and put it in the 13" MacBook Pro. To update it in October or Early November with Ice Lake? That's not how Apple operates. And after the Broadwell disaster and Skylake (non)issues(?), I think Apple is going to take a very conservative approach to moving to Ice Lake. You won't see Apple release anything this year with Ice Lake, it will be end of Q1 or Q2/2020, if Intel even ships this year. If there are any revisions to Air and 13" Pro this year, it would come in the form of 9th Gen U- and Y-Series CPUs with Gen 11 iGPUs tacked on. Just my 2¢.
  7. Dirtfarmer, Jul 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019

    Dirtfarmer macrumors regular

    Jan 18, 2012
    Apple won't own up to the data on failure rates, so all of it is anecdotal.


    Prior to butterfly: Approximately zero mentions of keyboard failures, because when was the last time someone released a tier-1 laptop with a crappy, failure-prone keyboard.

    Butterfly release: Massive and widespread complaints, Apple acknowledges major issue and switches to PR mode, tries to fix with design tweaks. Informal polls suggest up to 50% failure rates at Apple-centric organizations.

    Today: Apple probably canceling the butterfly keyboard as reported by Macrumors.

    Where there's smoke, there's fire. Butterfly is a disaster.

    I 100% agree that Tim is the reason why Apple is run the way it is run now. And that Steve promoted him.

    Tim is an administrator, not a visionary. Most visionaries (including Steve) tend to surround themselves with competent administrators, not other visionaries. The problem is that when the visionary leaves, his successor is necessarily an administrator.

    The reason Apple is still alive and successful is that it is still coasting on Steve's genius. While Steve was alive they went from one revolution to another, changing the world over and over.

    Now that Steve is gone, they just create and sell iterations of Steve's ideas at increasingly lower quality and higher margins. (That's why I call Tim "The Accountant King". Because he runs the company like one.)

    They have literally not had a single world-changing release since iOS in 2007. 12 years is a long time in technology.

    Consider that when the iPhone was released, Blackberry's stock was at $50. It subsequently went to $120! Despite iOS and Android offering a compelling future, and BB offering repackaged iterations of their 2000-era innovation.

    RIMM/Blackberry was a dead company that didn't know it was dead....making money hand over fist by coasting on old ideas, milking investors who don't understand how technology companies work.

    That is AAPL today and it makes me sad.

  8. jasonefmonk macrumors regular

    May 5, 2011
    I have a 2011 MBP and also replaced the optical drive, I run a fusion drive between the SSD and HDD. It’s fun but I wouldn't consider that part of the value for the average consumer.

    The 2.5GHz in 2012 is a misleading spec, it was certainly dual-core and doesn’t have the architecture improvements for video decoding and other common tasks. It also doesn’t have the companion T2 which also helps reduce overhead on the CPU.

    The quad-core 1.4GHz that in actual use is only ~9% slower than the 2.4GHz quad-core in the $1,799 model (via Max Tech). The boost ability and cores make the clock speed number less relevant.
  9. manu chao macrumors 603

    Jul 30, 2003
    How about a discussion that doesn't use 100% made-up statistics?
    --- Post Merged, Jul 20, 2019 ---
    And how do the failure rates in these 'internal polls' differ between the (at least) four different versions of the butterfly keyboards?
  10. Dirtfarmer, Jul 20, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 29, 2019

    Dirtfarmer macrumors regular

    Jan 18, 2012
    I didn't use any statistics because there are none.

    Keyboards should be so reliable you've never heard of one failing. 4 attempts at getting the butterfly to work and we are still hearing about it being crap.

    Then hearing that it is discontinued, right here on macrumors. That is the definition of an egregious, disastrous failure.

    It should not have taken them 4 years to acknowledge it; they should have supported their users and taken the financial hit by phasing it out as soon as it was clear what they had done.

    But they are run by a guy who is constantly sacrificing user satisfaction in favour of the stock price.
  11. KPOM macrumors G5

    Oct 23, 2010
    How many times do I need to dispel the myth that Tim Cook is an accountant or “bean counter”? He was Chief OPERATING Officer before he was CEO. The leading accountant is the Chief FINANCIAL officer. That’s Luca Maestri, who I doubt has ever been in a design meeting at Apple.
  12. Dirtfarmer macrumors regular

    Jan 18, 2012
    Regardless of what his business card says, he runs the company like an accountant.

    He is a competent administrator who squeezes every penny out of the supply chain (and the customer) and keeps the share price high.

    But he lacks the genius and vision to create entirely new, revolutionary, world-changing technology paradigms the way that Steve used to do.

    That's why I call him the Accountant. It's a nickname.

  13. dishwasherd macrumors newbie

    Jul 9, 2019
    I don't think Apple can be left behind with the significant benefits Ice Lake will provide for other laptop makers. And shipments have already started backing up Intels confidence. I guess we will have to wait to see.
  14. Zdigital2015 macrumors 68000

    Jul 14, 2015
    East Coast, United States
    Yes...I did a search and found this article - https://www.anandtech.com/show/1467...cial-shipments-of-10-nm-ice-lake-cpus-to-oems

    If Apple revises anything this year with Ice Lake CPUS, I suspect it will be the 13" MacBook Air. I suppose they might revise the 13" MacBook Pro, but I think they are going to simply dip their toes in the water and Ice Lake-Y is probably the best place to start, although I can see Apple waiting until the start of Q2/2020 before revising either the MacBook Air or the 13" MacBook Pro and following up later in 2020 with a revised 16" MacBook Pro using 45w TDP H-Series Ice Lake.

    All of this assumes that Intel can crank out volume production, although I can see Ice Lake being short-lived as Broadwell was with minimal SKUs as whatever codename is next on tap ramps up. Again, I have zero confidence in Intel's ability to crank out volume and there won't be anything more than Y- and U-Series CPUs this year which will be a test in and of itself.

    Apple won't be left behind, but they will be the most conservative and let Acer, Dell, HP and Lenovo be Intel's guinea pigs. I guess we will wait and see.
  15. chucker23n1 macrumors 68020


    Dec 7, 2014
    After the MacBook fiasco, I think they're wary of dipping their toes in a low-volume Intel part again.

    They were probably promised that Y-series CPUs would go up in performance much faster than they did (which, if Cannon Lake-Y had ever actually launched, would probably have happened). Instead, Whiskey Lake-Y is not only not that much faster, but also increases the TDP by 2W. That, among other design constraints, probably helped kill off the (Intel-based) 12-inch MacBook.

    We'll see how it goes for Ice Lake-Y.

    It seems the H-series will remain on 14nm until 2021.
  16. Zdigital2015 macrumors 68000

    Jul 14, 2015
    East Coast, United States
    I think Apple's wariness of Intel goes all the way back to Broadwell and then onto Skylake. I won't bore you with my opinions or theories, other than I think Apple saw Microsoft's Surface Pro issues w/Skylake and even if it ended up not being Intel's fault, it was right after Broadwell. Broadwell is self explanatory...I always thought it was ironic that Apple stuck it out with Haswell for three full revisions of the 15" MacBook Pro.

    Ice Lake-Y ups the TDP to 9w from 7w and doesn't disclose a TDP Down state - https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...re/10th-gen-core-mobile-processors-brief.html - instead simply labeling it N/A. I have to believe the 12" MacBook just wasn't built for a 7w or 9w TDP and so it went bye-bye. I am hoping the 13" MacBook Air can handle the 9w TDP as I just cannot fathom why Apple put in the Y-Series instead of going with a fan and a 15w U-Series like the non-Retina MBA, but I digress.

    At this point, I am most interested in the GPU performance of Ice Lake-Y. I really feel like Apple compromised severely on the Y-Series to build a tiny, fanless MacBook to satisfy their own itch and they got smacked down when people said, "this is not replacing my MacBook Air, try harder, Apple" and Apple tripled down until they realized they screwed up by not simply reworking the MacBook Air that everyone knows and loves. I know Apple's culture pooh poohs sentimentality as an obstacle to innovation, but the MacBook Air is simply iconic now. After a slow and ignominious start, it hit its stride in 2010 and never looked back. Apple refusing to realize that really was a colossal f***up on their part. To top it all off, they didn't even have enough confidence in the 12" MacBook to call it the MacBook Air, which is what it was. They whiffed at the last minute, I think and pulled MacBook out of the "Ye Olde Bag of Computer Names" once it dawned on them that it didn't live up to the MacBook Air legacy.

    I tried one at Best Buy and I just shook my head at the thing and walked off after debating buying one. It was just too small, too anemic, too port starved. I was clearly not the target market for that computer. More power to those who loved it, I just wanted to grab ahold of someone at Apple and go, "WTF?".

    I honestly wonder some days if Apple resented those who skipped buying a 13" MacBook Pro once they realized that the 13" MBA (especially the 2015) was an incredibly competent computer saddled with a crappy screen and said, "We're not making enough money on these and they are too good! People should be buying 13" MacBook Pros, we need to have a clearer delineation with this product." Instead, all Apple did was increase sales of the MacBook Air to the point where they even updated it in 2017. I remember watching that WWDC keynote and it seemed like they were embarrassed that they had to update it and couldn't understand why people weren't flocking to the 12" MacBook. I think the same thing happened to the 2012 Mac mini, which served many much better than an iMac or a Mac Pro. Next rev, dual-core and soldered DRAM and people said, "screw that" and so Apple said "f*** you, we're going to ignore it for 4 years and you will buy an iMac or a Mac Pro" and people said, "No, I will hold on to my 2012 forever or switch to Windows".

    Yes, I found out via Gamer's Nexus that some of these Intel "Leaks" are being faked, which I know is a possibility, so I now need to vet them better, or make sure I have an asterisk near them when I post them.

    Intel is going to be on 14nm for a long time...which I guess is not bad, but my original complaint about the lack of LPDDR4/x on 45w TDP CPUs still stands...my frustration with Intel is palpable at this time. For everything they do that is right, they also pull some really **** moves. Part of me is excited about a possible move to A-Series, part of me enjoys the benefits that Intel compatibility brings to Apple. Part of me wishes AMD could be counted on to deliver the volume Apple needs to switch to them as a CPU supplier, but then I remember that although AMD has some really good products now, I just cannot trust them to not slide back down the valley again. It hasn't been that many years ago that Apple could have bought them for a fire sale price. Just my 2¢.
  17. chucker23n1 macrumors 68020


    Dec 7, 2014
    AMD seems stuck in a chicken-and-egg game. They don’t make 45W CPUs because nobody’s buying, but I’m not interested until they have one.

    I’m sure there have been talks with Apple, and I guess Apple just isn’t confident they can consistently deliver.
  18. dandeco macrumors 6502

    Dec 5, 2008
    OOOOH! Looks like I might rethink the Retina MacBook Air idea and spend a little extra money for the Pro to replace my late 2009 MacBook! I'll still get the 1.4 GHz Quad Core i5 256 GB version with 16 GB of RAM though, so that raises up the price quite a bit, but for what I do, 16 GB of RAM would be worth it.

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