Epic: Fortnite Offline Worldwide 'Until Apple Unblocks It'

[heretiq]

I appreciate your constructive approach to naming real alternatives - but do believe they lack economic relevance.

In the end, Apple's fight for their in-app purchase monopoly and Epic's and Spotify's to end it, is mostly economically driven and motivated. And so is EU regulation. We may agree on that?

I think we can mostly agree on that — semantics aside. But can we also agree that every new entrant to a competitive market starts out as economically irrelevant — just like the iPhone and iOS when it entered a market that was also effectively a duopoly presided over by Symbian OS and Linux-based devices from Motorola and others which together commanded 70+% market share? Add in BlackBerry OS and you have 90+% market capture.

iOS (and Android) growth from economic irrelevance to dominant market position was earned in that competitive environment by producing better products and services .. and the results show that competitive, free markets work and deliver extraordinary innovations.

Do you believe that dynamic can’t be replicated? That today’s inventors and entrepreneurs are less inventive? Just look around and see the extraordinary amount of technological disruption occurring in front of our eyes — driven by smart, cooperative innovators. Its tensions like we’re seeing between Apple, Epic and Spotify that provide opportunity for disruptive innovation.

Why in the world would anyone advocate replacing such a system with ad-hoc government intervention to reward cheaters and freeloaders like Epic? 🤔

 

[Stuwil]

Well by the logic iOS and android is one and the same so we would have a single os 😂

Maybe that explains why governments and courts are regulating it like that

 

[Stuwil]

Every new entrant to a competitive market is economically irrelevant — just as the iPhone and iOS was when it entered a market that was also effectively a duopoly presided over by Symbian OS and Linux-based devices from Motorola which commanded 70+% market share. Add in BlackBerry OS and you have 90+% market capture.

iOS and Android’s growth from economic irrelevance to dominant market position was earned in that competitive environment by producing better products and services and show that competitive, free markets work and deliver extraordinary innovations.

Do you really believe that dynamic can’t be replicated? That today’s inventors are entrepreneurs are less inventive? Just look around and see the extraordinary amount of technological disruption occurring in front of our eyes — driven by smart, cooperative innovators.

Why in the world would anyone advocate replacing such a system with ad-hoc government intervention to reward cheaters and freeloaders like Epic? 🤔

There is a flaw in your argument about letting the market decide if that is the case
Then why is there only competition in china
For iOS and android
And nowhere else in the world

 

[surferfb]

There is a flaw in your argument about letting the market decide if that is the case
Then why is there only competition in china
For iOS and android
And nowhere else in the world

Just because it hasn’t arisen yet doesn’t mean it won’t. Again, Apple started with 0 percent with entrenched companies with massive market share.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Do you believe that dynamic can’t be replicated?

Yes, I believe it.
Supported by the decades-long situation in desktop operating systems with Microsoft Windows.

The ecosystem of third-party apps cements both iOS and Android's dominant position, as it did Windows'.

That's the main reason why Windows Phone failed.
And why Microsoft Windows survived the duds they released (e.g. 8 and Vista).

 

[AppliedMicro]

Well by the logic iOS and android is one and the same so we would have a single os 😂

Great point. 👍

All Unix-derived.

 

[Stuwil]

Just because it hasn’t arisen yet doesn’t mean it won’t. Again, Apple started with 0 percent with entrenched companies with massive market share.

Because the difference is this these two companies have deliberately make it virtually impossible for a 3rd OS to compete with them through a multiple different ways
That is why you are seeing government regulation and court intervention like Payment links

If this is not true then why do you only see competition in china for mobile OS’s
And in search

 

[I7guy]

No you said you didn’t require a smartphone to function in today’s society and what I’m saying is if you’re 92 years old in a retirement home then you are correct
However you also don’t do what people of working age do.

The fact that you admit that a smartphone is not necessary for all is the point. Some people require a car also, but many in urban settings don’t need one.

You have two choices in mobile OS’s when you go into a mobile shop like a Vodafone store
Having a skin on top of android is not having multiple choices
Being for example iOS and android and harmony OS that you can walk into a store and purchase from
Not flash it on top.

This is a subjective distinction.

 

[Stuwil]

The fact that you admit that a smartphone is not necessary for all is the point. Some people require a car also, but many in urban settings don’t need one.

This is a subjective distinction.

A smartphone is not required for a 92 year old in a retirement home
That practically doesn’t do anything at all
Then yes because she doesn’t function really in society anymore.

No it’s not because if you can’t realistically purchase a device that doesn’t have iOS or a pre installed android OS then majority of people won’t purchase it.

 

[I7guy]

Because the difference is this these two companies have deliberately make it virtually impossible for a 3rd OS to compete with them through a multiple different ways

I disagree. Apple made it into an entrenched market in 2007.

That is why you are seeing government regulation and court intervention like Payment links

It’s the copycat thing. One govt started it and the rest said “oh it sounds like a good idea”.

If this is not true then why do you only see competition in china for mobile OS’s
And in search

There are more than two operating systems as was previously noted.

 

[heretiq]

Yes, I believe it.
Supported by the decades-long situation in desktop operating systems with Microsoft Windows.

The ecosystem of third-party apps cements both iOS and Android's dominant position, as it did Windows'.

That's the main reason why Windows Phone failed.
And why Microsoft Windows survived the duds they released (e.g. 8 and Vista).

I'm not a Windows fan -- I prefer MacOS and use it every day. But I also use Windows because my clients use Windows -- and that use has shown me a company that consistently invests in keeping its product relevant, useful and convenient for the majority of its customers. That is both why Windows is dominant in the desktop market, and why its dominant position is not guaranteed. If Microsoft drops the ball and fails to continue that investment in Windows, over time users will leave because there are alternatives and while there are switching costs, they are not phohibitive.

Smart innovators target large markets and exploit gaps (created by dominant provider under-servicing and over-servicing customer sub-segments) to peel away customers one small segment at a time. This is how disruption occurs. The fact that Microsoft maintains a dominant position is not an indicator that the desktop market is not competitive or that competitive pressures are not working. Microsoft is dominant because they've succeeded in delivering superior value to more people than the available alternatives. And, that dominance should be respected not derided because it is earned.

I am optimistic that this dynamic and the constant influx of disruptive technology will keep dominant provides (including Apple who spends more on R&D than SG&A) on their toes and optimize value delivered to consumers in the end regardless of whether the dominant provider is displaced -- just as Windows has delivered huge benefits to countless consumers.

 

[Stuwil]

I disagree. Apple made it into an entrenched market in 2007.

It’s the copycat thing. One govt started it and the rest said “oh it sounds like a good idea”.

There are more than two operating systems as was previously noted.

Because it doesn’t matter if it’s Symbian OS
Or I7 GUY OS if it is not pre installed on devices sold in shops like Vodafone store
Then the majority of people won’t use it.
That is why it’s IOS and android in the west

Yes because all these governments & courts are in cahoots to change iOS
just like the Chinese government they want to bring apple down
Or maybe it’s because there is no actual proper competition in the west so these regulators are looking at apple’s business practices and saying NAW you Can’t do that.

Yes there are more than two mobile operating systems of substantial market share
Android & harmony OS & iOS
They just happen to be in china and no where else but don’t worry someone else will come along in the west

It just also so happens that google are not dominating in china in search but they are everywhere else yet someone will break through in the west.

Yet people wonder why governments are regulating apple when the only competition available is in china and no where else in the west.

 

[I7guy]

Because it doesn’t matter if it’s Symbian OS
Or I7 GUY OS if it is not pre installed on devices sold in shops like Vodafone store
Then the majority of people won’t use it.
That is why it’s IOS and android in the west

It does matter. There is bias galore and people (or posters) see what they want. Strawman criticisms, hyperbole and such.

Yes because all these governments & courts are in cahoots to change iOS

It's possible.

just like the Chinese government they want to bring apple down

I don't recall that was ever said, but that may be your interpretation.

Or maybe it’s because there is no actual proper competition in the west so these regulators are looking at apple’s business practices and saying NAW you Can’t do that.

Or maybe there is actual proper competition. If history should have taught us anything the breakup of AT&T 40 years later did little to provide consumers with a vibrant cellular competitive environment.

Yes there are more than two mobile operating systems of substantial market share
Android & harmony OS & iOS
They just happen to be in china and no where else but don’t worry someone else will come along in the west

Apple came along in 2007, and there was a huge cell phone presence at that time. So it is possible for additional manufacturers to enter the fray.

It just also so happens that google are not dominating in china in search but they are everywhere else yet someone will break through in the west.

Yet people wonder why governments are regulating apple when the only competition available is in china and no where else in the west.

Nobody can tell what is going to happen in the future.

 

[Stuwil]

It does matter. There is bias galore and people (or posters) see what they want. Strawman criticisms, hyperbole and such.

It's possible.

I don't recall that was ever said, but that may be your interpretation.

Or maybe there is actual proper competition. If history should have taught us anything the breakup of AT&T 40 years later did little to provide consumers with a vibrant cellular competitive environment.

Apple came along in 2007, and there was a huge cell phone presence at that time. So it is possible for additional manufacturers to enter the fray.

Nobody can tell what is going to happen in the future.

If it’s a strawman argument as you claim
Then why is there competition in china
And none in the west for iOS or android

And I don’t your fake competition with multiple versions of android
Or mobile operating system’s that don’t come pre installed on devices sold in proper stores like a Vodafone store

 

[I7guy]

If it’s a strawman argument as you claim
Then why is there competition in china
And none in the west for iOS or android

There are other operating systems and every manufacturer have their own distribution mechanism.

And I don’t your fake competition with multiple versions of android
Or mobile operating system’s that don’t come pre installed on devices sold in proper stores like a Vodafone store

You can interpret or not the facts. It’s not that there isn’t competition but there are hundreds of manufacturers that don’t do their own o/s development and instead license. Similar to Qualcomm.

 

[Killbynumbers]

It's time for a$$le to be pushed in a corner.

"think different" has definitively died, under the greed.

I'm behind Apple 100% on this. Apples store, Apples rules.

 

[Bungaree.Chubbins]

This thread certainly took a turn for the bizarre! Why are we arguing whether or not smartphones are necessary? It’s pretty clear that in many corporate environments a smartphone is required. They’ll even give you one to make sure you have one! No, no one needs a smartphone to survive, but that’s a different argument…

Yes, I believe it.
Supported by the decades-long situation in desktop operating systems with Microsoft Windows.

The ecosystem of third-party apps cements both iOS and Android's dominant position, as it did Windows'.

That's the main reason why Windows Phone failed.
And why Microsoft Windows survived the duds they released (e.g. 8 and Vista).

I think it’s worth looking closer at Microsoft’s attempt at a smartphone, and asking why developers didn’t make aid for it. You could come to the conclusion that it was the fact that they were a new player in a big market, but I don’t think that holds up to scrutiny.

What have actual developers said about it? I’ve read that the experience of trying to make apps for Windows phones was horrible, with Microsoft having made it difficult to develop and optimise for.

I think that is the missing piece of this argument. I liked the user experience of my friend’s Nokia Windows phone, and if I didn’t like my iPhone so much I absolutely would have got one myself! I believe that it could have become an established player in the market, despite there already being two entrenched parties of they’d made an environment easier to develop for.

If it’s a strawman argument as you claim
Then why is there competition in china
And none in the west for iOS or android

And I don’t your fake competition with multiple versions of android
Or mobile operating system’s that don’t come pre installed on devices sold in proper stores like a Vodafone store

I don’t think the current absence of a credible third option is evidence that there cannot be one. It would take a lot of money, good well designed technology, and a good business plan, but there’s nothing stopping a well funded entity making a new, compelling option.

 

[Stuwil]

There are other operating systems and every manufacturer have their own distribution mechanism.

You can interpret or not the facts. It’s not that there isn’t competition but there are hundreds of manufacturers that don’t do their own o/s development and instead license. Similar to Qualcomm.

That’s not competition for iOS or android
Companies putting a skin on android on top and calling it something different like
One UI it’s still android
Competition is when you have like for example
iOS and android and harmony OS

Like for example you walk into a store in china you can purchase a Huawei device that has an actual different OS pre installed on it not one you take home & then flash to put a different OS on it

 

[Stuwil]

This thread certainly took a turn for the bizarre! Why are we arguing whether or not smartphones are necessary? It’s pretty clear that in many corporate environments a smartphone is required. They’ll even give you one to make sure you have one! No, no one needs a smartphone to survive, but that’s a different argument…


I think it’s worth looking closer at Microsoft’s attempt at a smartphone, and asking why developers didn’t make aid for it. You could come to the conclusion that it was the fact that they were a new player in a big market, but I don’t think that holds up to scrutiny.

What have actual developers said about it? I’ve read that the experience of trying to make apps for Windows phones was horrible, with Microsoft having made it difficult to develop and optimise for.

I think that is the missing piece of this argument. I liked the user experience of my friend’s Nokia Windows phone, and if I didn’t like my iPhone so much I absolutely would have got one myself! I believe that it could have become an established player in the market, despite there already being two entrenched parties of they’d made an environment easier to develop for.

I don’t think the current absence of a credible third option is evidence that there cannot be one. It would take a lot of money, good well designed technology, and a good business plan, but there’s nothing stopping a well funded entity making a new, compelling option.

If you think that a 3rd option can appear then in the west then why is it the only country where google is not number 1 in search is china if another competitor can break through

If a 3rd competitor in mobile OS apart from
iOS or android can break through
Then why is it only in china that this is possible and no where else in the world

That is why companies like epic and Spotify are able to get governments to listen to them about apple’s business practices

 

[Bungaree.Chubbins]

If you think that a 3rd option can appear then in the west then why is it the only country where google is not number 1 in search is china if another competitor can break through

If a 3rd competitor in mobile OS apart from
iOS or android can break through
Then why is it only in china that this is possible and no where else in the world

That is why companies like epic and Spotify are able to get governments to listen to them about apple’s business practices

I don’t buy the logic that says something is not possible because it isn’t being done. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Search engines are expensive to make, and Google rode a tech hype wave of investment to build theirs, just like the hype wave funding AI now when no one has figured out how to make them even break even yet. Google eventually funded their search enterprise by using us as the product and selling our data to advertisers.

There are alternatives to Google, but none have really caught on in a big way. Google’s advantage was that they were a lot better. While they have clearly declined, no one else has managed to match their peak. Who knows, maybe one of the alternatives will get there.

Again, just because something isn’t happening doesn’t mean it can’t. Microsoft’s failure was of their own doing. It had promise, and if they’d done a good job, they could have leveraged the near ubiquity of Windows into a massive advantage. Turned out they were quite inept.

Epic and Spotify aren’t holy crusaders shining a light on Evil Apple! They’re another bunch of greedy capitalists fighting another large capitalist over our money!

 

[Stuwil]

I don’t buy the logic that says something is not possible because it isn’t being done. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Search engines are expensive to make, and Google rode a tech hype wave of investment to build theirs, just like the hype wave funding AI now when no one has figured out how to make them even break even yet. Google eventually funded their search enterprise by using us as the product and selling our data to advertisers.

There are alternatives to Google, but none have really caught on in a big way. Google’s advantage was that they were a lot better. While they have clearly declined, no one else has managed to match their peak. Who knows, maybe one of the alternatives will get there.

Again, just because something isn’t happening doesn’t mean it can’t. Microsoft’s failure was of their own doing. It had promise, and if they’d done a good job, they could have leveraged the near ubiquity of Windows into a massive advantage. Turned out they were quite inept.

Epic and Spotify aren’t holy crusaders shining a light on Evil Apple! They’re another bunch of greedy capitalists fighting another large capitalist over our money!

Oh yes definitely a 3rd mobile operating system is possible because it’s been proven in china it can be done

Yes google can definitely be beaten in search because they are in china so it can be done

Nobody is disputing that it’s a bunch of companies fighting over 30 pieces of silver
However there must be something in it that various different governments & courts are listening to everything and are making changes to iOS now it’s either because of lack of competition that iOS is coming under scrutiny due to business decisions
Or it’s these body’s are in cahoots to get apple

 

[I7guy]

Oh yes definitely a 3rd mobile operating system is possible because it’s been proven in china it can be done

Especially when given a nod by the govt

Yes google can definitely be beaten in search because they are in china so it can be done

Yes when the govt helps out wonderful things happen.

Nobody is disputing that it’s a bunch of companies fighting over 30 pieces of silver
However there must be something in it that various different governments & courts are listening to everything and are making changes to iOS now it’s either because of lack of competition that iOS is coming under scrutiny due to business decisions
Or it’s these body’s are in cahoots to get apple

Or just because. You will never get the real reason these things start.

 

[Bungaree.Chubbins]

Oh yes definitely a 3rd mobile operating system is possible because it’s been proven in china it can be done

Yes google can definitely be beaten in search because they are in china so it can be done

Nobody is disputing that it’s a bunch of companies fighting over 30 pieces of silver
However there must be something in it that various different governments & courts are listening to everything and are making changes to iOS now it’s either because of lack of competition that iOS is coming under scrutiny due to business decisions
Or it’s these body’s are in cahoots to get apple

China isn't a level playing field. What access do Google's web crawlers have to the Chinese internet? Home field advantage works in most markets around the world, so why would it be a surprise that Chinese people like Chinese products better than foreign products? I'm fairly certain that a product made to appeal to the Chinese market isn't highly likely to appeal to me very much. Europeans aren't very fond of U.S. cars either, whose fault is that? There's no big conspiracy keeping American cars out of Europe, they're just not designed for that market!

 

[wbeasley]

So there is graphene O/S does that come pre installed on any mobile device you can purchase in a phone shop

My company has told everyone to download this app from either iOS or android app store
Without I can’t do part of my job
And more companies are going this way
Because the individuals without are in the minority so these changes can get implemented

You are correct my wee 92 year old granny doesn’t have a smartphone in today’s age
But she is in an old folks home so yes you are kind of right

So you argue that no phone comes reinstalled with neither iOS nor Android...

And when told there is an option you want it pre-installed.

And this after complaining that Apple wont provide tools to remove iOS...

So you would have to then install another OS...

Which is no different to loading a different OS...

Perhaps you want Apple to sell phones with preinstalled alternative OSes...

The circular argument defies logic!

Your company requirement to download an app is a business issue not Apple issue.
They often provide work phones or group use phones in workplaces.
But most people prefer their own.

But you know all that...

 

[wbeasley]

There is a flaw in your argument about letting the market decide if that is the case
Then why is there only competition in china
For iOS and android
And nowhere else in the world

it's not about competition in China (or Russia).

it's about state sanctioned OSes that have backdoors to monitor what residents do on their phones.

they dont want them Googling answers that the State don't like.
they dont want them chatting privately or sharing files.

it's not about OS choice at all.
it's about control of a population.

and yet if China can use Android to make a version then others could too.

i'm sure Apple have considered forking iOS to make an EU only version.
tie down functions to that the EU wants and lets the rest of the world have a better controlled code base.