Epic: Fortnite Offline Worldwide 'Until Apple Unblocks It'

[BaldiMac]

In what way do I argue that googles large market share is relevant for actions against Apple? When it’s because of apples large market share that gives them a dominant position that is the foundation for legal action against them?

So, you're claiming that you brought up the duopoly even though it was irrelevant? Strange strategy.

Oh, wait, here you are arguing that it is relevant:

And yes a duopoly is very different when it comes to market power compared to 10 different options dividing the market power.

In reality, there would have been no DMA (at least as it pertains to mobile OSs) if Google Play Services didn't dominate 70% of the market through anticompetitive agreements. A market with with multiple services with no more than 30% share would be healthy.

No as the AppStore and playstore don’t compete with each other. Android have competition between their respective stores because they run on the same platform.

You're on a tangent here. I was talking about Android before the DMA. But since we're in a thread about the Epic Case, the judge rejected the argument that iOS is a separate market.

And here you are arguing that they do compete:

The duopoly could be argued in the digital store front of play store and AppStore.

 

[I7guy]

Well you would scan the QR code and verify the login credentials with you phone. Or provide your social security number and verify it on your phone. And therefore be able to login on your computer or phone etc.

Snabb och säker digital identifiering och underskrift

Med snabb och säker identifiering möjliggör BankID ett modernt och tillgängligt samhälle.

www.bankid.com

By this definition my lg flip phone in the early 2000s was a smartphone. Had a camera, authentication, App Store, apps etc.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

By this definition my lg flip phone in the early 2000s was a smartphone. Had a camera, authentication, App Store, apps etc.

sure, except the app doesn’t work on anything older than iPhone 6s 🤷‍♂️

You need a Secure Enclave

 

[I7guy]

sure, except the app doesn’t work on anything older than iPhone 6s 🤷‍♂️

You need a Secure Enclave

Need the DMA involvement. Some gatekeepers are artificially limiting cell phone usage.

 

[AppliedMicro]

You could add to that argument that the chip manufacturers could "charge downstream business" as well. But all of these arguments are invalid. The ISP and power company provide services that are used for many purposes by many market segments.

So does Apple with their App Store service.

Power is used for a restaurant the same way it is used by a residential user to power their vacuum

So is the App Store used for downloading apps.

And even different types of apps downloaded from the Apple App Store.
A word processing application paid for and downloaded from the App Store (at 30% commission to Apple) is used the same way by a restaurant as it is by a residential user to write and exchange documents. So is a scanning / OCR app.

Internet is used by schools the same way it is used by marketing companies.

So is the Apple App Store.

Schools download their apps from it or manage their app subscriptions - and so do marketing companies.

I think competition is a good thing, especially when it hinders progress.

I believe it's a good thing when it does not hinder progress.

From this perspective, I don't think the government should meddle in business to resolve something that isn't actually an issue for anyone other than billion dollar companies.

Billion dollar company account for the largest share of transactions through Apple and their App Store.
And they can provide or procure transaction processing cheaper than Apple (cause they do it large scale).

As such, the improved economic efficiencies are particularly beneficial if large developers can benefit from lower fees.

Also, it's not like we are talking about food or medical services here.

We aren't. Then again, I strongly disagree that government should only regulate food and medical services.

 

[AppliedMicro]

As long as Epic Sweden has a valid developer agreement, there is nothing Apple can do.

Why not?

They could segregate the App Store into regions - and let E.U. developers only distribute their apps in the E.U.
Problem is that there may be collateral damage (i.e. EU developers, their apps and revenue disappearing from the U.S. store).

But given how creative and crafty (and plain anticompetitive evil) Apple have proven to be, I'm sure they can work something out.

 

[I7guy]

Why not?

They could segregate the App Store into regions - and let E.U. developers only distribute their apps in the E.U.
Problem is that there may be collateral damage (i.e. EU developers, their apps and revenue disappearing from the U.S. store).

But given how creative and crafty (and plain anticompetitive evil) Apple have proven to be, I'm sure they can work something out.

And how underhanded epic was. Apple has not been found to be anticompetitive except for the anti-steering provision.

And yeah you’d be crafty and creative if it was your money that was in the line. But it’s easy to play with other peoples money when you don’t have a cent to lose.

 

[wbeasley]

Why do you have a smartphone then if you can do everything on a computer
Why not a Nokia 3310?

absurd response

 

[wbeasley]

So you do need a smartphone then

you can text on a dumb phone...

 

[AppliedMicro]

 

[Stuwil]

you can text on a dumb phone...

Because the guy said he can do everything on a computer and if that’s the case then why does he have a smartphone in this day and age
If all you need is a basic PC and a Nokia 3310
Then in today’s working environment you have no need for a smartphone then do you.

 

[Stuwil]

you can text on a dumb phone...

Yes and we have already established that
However my 90 year old plus granny lives in an old folks home so yes you can use a basic 3310 because she no longer properly functions in society

However in today’s working society you need a smartphone in some shape or form
And that is one of the factors in how Apple are getting regulated.

 

[wbeasley]

Yes and we have already established that
However my 90 year old plus granny lives in an old folks home so yes you can use a basic 3310 because she no longer properly functions in society

However in today’s working society you need a smartphone in some shape or form
And that is one of the factors in how Apple are getting regulated.

actually a 3310 wouldnt work here as we have closed down 3G services and now it's 4G and 5G only...

old tech has it's day eventually even if the battery still lasts more than 20 minutes or it boots in 2 minutes.

 

[wbeasley]

Yes and we have already established that
However my 90 year old plus granny lives in an old folks home so yes you can use a basic 3310 because she no longer properly functions in society

However in today’s working society you need a smartphone in some shape or form
And that is one of the factors in how Apple are getting regulated.

you should get your 90 year old granny on MR so we can all have a chat with her.

i've worked in aged care.
had quite a few 90 year olds that were quite tech savvy too.
better than some 70 year olds and quite a few 50 year olds...

 

[Stuwil]

actually a 3310 wouldnt work here as we have closed down 3G services and now it's 4G and 5G only...

old tech has it's day eventually even if the battery still lasts more than 20 minutes or it boots in 2 minutes.

You can get a Nokia 3310 4g edition
Because in my country the 3g connection is switched off.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

So, you're claiming that you brought up the duopoly even though it was irrelevant? Strange strategy.

Oh, wait, here you are arguing that it is relevant:

Cant remember exactly the full context in regard to dating apps, but that a duopoly(a market with two options) is different from a market with 10 options in regards to the dating apps. as well as how marketpower is expressed.

In reality, there would have been no DMA (at least as it pertains to mobile OSs) if Google Play Services didn't dominate 70% of the market through anticompetitive agreements. A market with with multiple services with no more than 30% share would be healthy.

it very likely would still be a thing. Because iOS and Android doesn't compete, and the Google PlayStore(+Galaxy-store,Amazon-store or other android stores) doesn't compete with the iOS AppStore.
on iOS the AppStore have 100%
On Android the market share in 2021 was:

100.0 % Google Play,
39.5 % Galaxy Store
10.6 % Xiaomi
00.6 % Epic Launcher

You're on a tangent here. I was talking about Android before the DMA. But since we're in a thread about the Epic Case, the judge rejected the argument that iOS is a separate market.

And here you are arguing that they do compete:

You did bring up the DMA that i just responded to. you stated that despite alternatives existing no significant competition emerged. this isn't a bad outcome.

if Epic store, altstore,cydia etc is allowed to compete and they take marketshare from Apple then that's good, if apple maintain it's market share despite the new competition then that's also good.

Are you now arguing that there was reasonable amount of competition before the DMA? Then what was the point?

Need the DMA involvement. Some gatekeepers are artificially limiting cell phone usage.

What gatekeeper would that be? The Banks are just following mandatory security standards.

 

[Stuwil]

Cant remember exactly the full context in regard to dating apps, but that a duopoly(a market with two options) is different from a market with 10 options in regards to the dating apps. as well as how marketpower is expressed.

it very likely would still be a thing. Because iOS and Android doesn't compete, and the Google PlayStore(+Galaxy-store,Amazon-store or other android stores) doesn't compete with the iOS AppStore.
on iOS the AppStore have 100%
On Android the market share in 2021 was:

100.0 % Google Play,
39.5 % Galaxy Store
10.6 % Xiaomi
00.6 % Epic Launcher


You did bring up the DMA that i just responded to. you stated that despite alternatives existing no significant competition emerged. this isn't a bad outcome.

if Epic store, altstore,cydia etc is allowed to compete and they take marketshare from Apple then that's good, if apple maintain it's market share despite the new competition then that's also good.



What gatekeeper would that be? The Banks are just following mandatory security standards.

This is nonsense about being alternatives
There is no alternative within iOS
And because of this apple is currently allowed to assert its dominance for their own benefit

 

[Sophisticatednut]

This is nonsense about being alternatives
There is no alternative within iOS
And because of this apple is currently allowed to assert its dominance for their own benefit

iOS do have alternatives, apple just prevent them from competing fairly, or outright working
Cydia,Epic Store, appDB, Altstore etc are alternative... Apple just can't stop themselves from getting in between the customer and the service provider.

 

[Stuwil]

iOS do have alternatives, apple just prevent them from competing fairly, or outright working
Cydia,Epic Store, appDB, Altstore etc are alternative... Apple just can't stop themselves from getting in between the customer and the service provider.

I agree with you
That is why one by one certain things are getting challenged in various different territories

 

[BaldiMac]

Cant remember exactly the full context in regard to dating apps, but that a duopoly(a market with two options) is different from a market with 10 options in regards to the dating apps. as well as how marketpower is expressed.

Is that your final answer? Because that's what I said, and you disagreed with me and claimed you never said that.

it very likely would still be a thing. Because iOS and Android doesn't compete

Again, the judge in the Epic case ruled that they do compete, so let's put that argument to bed.

You did bring up the DMA that i just responded to. you stated that despite alternatives existing no significant competition emerged. this isn't a bad outcome.

Sigh.

SN: "Stop blocking side loading and allow other AppStores full competitive access at 0 cost."
BM: That's not a fix. Android allowed that for a decade with no significant competition to the Google Play Store.
SN: There was a reasonable amount of competition.
BM: Than why did we need the DMA to open competition with respect to mobile OS services?
SN: A lack of significant competition isn't a bad outcome.

How does that make any sense to anyone? The EU needed to create sweeping legislation that will cost billions to implement even though it will result in no significant competition? Seems like they need rename the Competition commission.

A real fix would be to end Google's anticompetitive agreements for Google Play Services, so manufacturers have to license or implement their own services. Break up the monopoly, and (as you admit above) you have a healthier market with multiple competitors.

Throw in a requirement to allow emulators or limit the amount of Apple's or Google's commission, and we'd be closer to an even more popular fix.

 

[BaldiMac]

Apple just can't stop themselves from getting in between the customer and the service provider.

That's how innumerable businesses work, so it's kinda weird that you present that as anticompetitive.

 

[Stuwil]

Is that your final answer? Because that's what I said, and you disagreed with me and claimed you never said that.


Again, the judge in the Epic case ruled that they do compete, so let's put that argument to bed.


Sigh.

SN: "Stop blocking side loading and allow other AppStores full competitive access at 0 cost."
BM: That's not a fix. Android allowed that for a decade with no significant competition to the Google Play Store.
SN: There was a reasonable amount of competition.
BM: Than why did we need the DMA to open competition with respect to mobile OS services?
SN: A lack of significant competition isn't a bad outcome.

How does that make any sense to anyone? The EU needed to create sweeping legislation that will cost billions to implement even though it will result in no significant competition? Seems like they need rename the Competition commission.

A real fix would be to end Google's anticompetitive agreements for Google Play Services, so manufacturers have to license or implement their own services. Break up the monopoly, and (as you admit above) you have a healthier market with multiple competitors.

Throw in a requirement to allow emulators or limit the amount of Apple's or Google's commission, and we'd be closer to an even more popular fix.

The difference is android is on multiple devices from Samsung to popfone
These individual OEM’s are free to put
App stores on it if they want
However there is a big difference with the popfone and the iPhone in terms of alternative app stores

Again there is no point in saying to popfone
You can choose not to use google play services as it’s about money & investment
It’s not worth their time & effort to spend that money and that goes for most android OEM’s

 

[BaldiMac]

The difference is android is on multiple devices from Samsung to popfone
These individual OEM’s are free to put
App stores on it if they want
However there is a big difference with the popfone and the iPhone in terms of alternative app stores

Again there is no point in saying to popfone
You can choose not to use google play services as it’s about money & investment
It’s not worth their time & effort to spend that money and that goes for most android OEM’s

I have no idea what that has to do with what I said. Proofreading and punctuation would probably help.

 

[Stuwil]

I have no idea what that has to do with what I said. Proofreading and punctuation would probably help.

Because it is a fantasy to suggest that this would work in relation to android and how google distribute it.

As I said a company like popfone will not invest in their own app stores & that goes for the majority of android OEM’s as it will comedown to investment and money and for these companies it’s not worth it.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Is that your final answer? Because that's what I said, and you disagreed with me and claimed you never said that.

The anticompetitive practices doesn’t change much if it’s a duopoly or 10 alternatives. So I’m not sure what the disconnect between us are or the failure of communication from my side is.

Again, the judge in the Epic case ruled that they do compete, so let's put that argument to bed.

Fair as long as we are talking about the U.S. and not referring to EU or the DMA etc.

( I have added comments)

SN: "Stop blocking side loading and allow other AppStores full competitive access at 0 cost."
BM: That's not a fix. Android allowed that for a decade with no significant competition to the Google Play Store.
( they didn’t hence the anticompetitive ruling against Google’s antitrust behavior in EU)

SN: There was a reasonable amount of competition.
(allegedly on Android if PlayStore won fairly)

BM: Than why did we need the DMA to open competition with respect to mobile OS services?
( because Google and Apple used AntiCompetive practices against the competition and preventing a proper competitive market from existing)

SN: A lack of significant competition isn't a bad outcome.( competition loosing fairly isn’t a bad thing)

How does that make any sense to anyone? The EU needed to create sweeping legislation that will cost billions to implement even though it will result in no significant competition? Seems like they need rename the Competition commission.

Well the commission is just the executive branch 🤷‍♂️. The legislation is making fair market competition between services possible.
The DMA doesn’t open up competition between Android OS services and iOS OS services.

If chrome for example becomes the monopoly on browser because they are allowed on iOS ( instead of using WebKit) then this is completely fine. Same thing if Epic store in some manner manages to take over the iOS store market or failing, this would be completely fine as it’s done by market forces instead of artificial restrictions by a dominant player to undercut any competition from ever having a fair chance.

A real fix would be to end Google's anticompetitive agreements for Google Play Services, so manufacturers have to license or implement their own services. Break up the monopoly, and (as you admit above) you have a healthier market with multiple competitors.

Well as far as I’m aware their anticompetitive agreements are being torn up/ or are in the process of being torn up by EU pending some appeals and other court cases

Antitrust: Commission fines Google €4.34 billion for illegal practices regarding Android mobile devices to strengthen dominance of Google\'s search engine

The European Commission has fined Google €4.34 billion for breaching EU antitrust rules. Since 2011, Google has imposed illegal restrictions on Android device manufacturers and mobile network operators to cement its dominant position in general internet search.

ec.europa.eu

And the U.S. I believe

Google ordered to open Play store to rivals after antitrust loss to Epic Games

Google must make Android apps available from competing sources and cannot forbid use of in-app payment methods

www.theguardian.com

Throw in a requirement to allow emulators or limit the amount of Apple's or Google's commission, and we'd be closer to an even more popular fix.

I’m not so much in favor of a cap on a commission, unless it’s in a FRAND framework. I would rather they can take any commission if their services is used, or pick an alternative service and pay 0%. Basically how it’s done on Mac.

Use the Mac/iOS-Appstore = pay whatever fee they want
Use the Mac/iOS-InApp Purchase = pay whatever fee they want

Use alternative Mac/iOS-Appstore
(example steam/Epic/EA/Altstore= pay 0
Use alternative Mac/iOS-InApp Purchase
(example PayPal/Cards/ApplePay) = pay 0

That's how innumerable businesses work, so it's kinda weird that you present that as anticompetitive.

I would say the vast majority of businesses don’t get in my way, despite some major players do tries to get between you and everything else. Especially in regards to gods you owns.

My ISP, mobile ISP, car, computers, steam, lights, kitchen appliances, tools etc doesn’t get between me and another business who wants to sell me parts or services that can be competitive with them.