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The point is that there is one commercial off the shelf smartphone operating system: Android. It has a monopoly over the smartphone operating system market, the software that runs the device. This is not to be confused with the smartphone hardware manufacturers which includes obviously Apple and Google but also Samsung, HTC, Microsoft, Motorola, Huawei, OnePlus, LG and Xiaomi. Plenty of hardware manufacturers but only one OS choice.

Prior to Android, many of those smartphone platforms used to ship Microsoft Windows Mobile or Windows Phone. Even Nokia experimented with Android devices prior to Microsoft's acquisition. The market also had Blackberry's operating system and HP tried to compete with webOS but it's hard to compete with a free operating system. Android essentially eviscerated Microsoft from the operating system market, why pay for Windows when you can get Android for free? Thus a competitor in the smartphone operating system market is removed.

So reiterate I don't think there is room for competition in the smartphone operating system market, I believe Android has a monopoly over the market and that there isn't competition in the smartphone operating system market.

I'm not sure how many more times I can write smartphone operating system market but I hope that makes sense. Two different markets: one software, one hardware.

To be seen as a "monopolist" under the law, you must have "the long term ability to raise price or exclude competitors". Since Android itself is free and open source it can't really do either.

Android itself came seemingly out of nowhere, but it was being worked on back to 2003 or something like that before Google bought them. It's entirely possible that there's another OS being developed out there that will disrupt the current status quo. The fact that the AOSP source is free and open means aspiring OS developers get a head start.


I'm also not convinced that the reason Windows Mobile and WebOS went away were entirely because of Android. The hardware and software are not truly unrelated to each other-- a great OS on mediocre hardware will fail in the market, just as great hardware with a mediocre OS will.

You might be able to make a case for separate hw/sw markets, but I think there's also the case that there's one market for mobile device systems. Are there any mobile platforms, such as the Intel PC platform, that allows you to install an OS of your choice? I'll admit to not being 'm pretty sure that when you chose a device, the HW and SW are a matched set. If they really can't be purchased independently, then they seem to be one market.
It was Microsoft going to Netscape and asking Netscape to make their browser only work on Windows.
I agree with most of your logic on the MS story, but I think you got this bit backwards-- Microsoft had licensed Mosaic and was building IE for Win95 (32bit Windows) and had requested that Netscape avoid the Win95 market, and then backed that request with a threat.
 
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You've just put forward the entire argument for the App Store... at the end of the day alot of folk out there are NOT tech savvy enough to not fall for the occasional piece of malware/spyware, and all it will take is ONE malicious App and Apples reputation is tarnished forever.

Lets face it, if for example a Game like fortnight is ONLY available as a sideload or from an alternative App Store and it gains enough popularity, People WILL turn off their security to enable something that all their friends are playing.

If Epic or someone else stores are going to be vetted by Apple as you suggest, how much is that going to cost ?

Personally I'd say 30% of sales is fair.

Would an app that is available from the Alt App Store even be allowed on the Apple App Store ?
Might exclusivity contracts be put in place by Epic or Whomever on their stores, I know I would want that.
Wouldn't that restrict the developers audience and exposure ?

It's completely possible that the only people that will get completely screwed in the whole mess is small to medium developers who depend on 100% visibility of Potential App Store Clientele to make a buck.

The big companies will survive, but shrink. Customers and developers caught in the crossfire will be the pawns.
have you bought in app purchase any at first place ?
1.99 - 30 % take by apple
199 - 30 % take by apple
399 - 30% take by apple.

The software industry all-ready polluted with some marketing think they want margin 50% and store want 30% which left developer 5% to continue next project.

The most reason cycle continue, small company up and down and up and down.
 
To be seen as a "monopolist" under the law, you must have "the long term ability to raise price or exclude competitors". Since Android itself is free and open source it can't really do either.

I didn't use the phrase "monopolist", I use the phrase "monopoly". Almost any non-Apple smartphone device runs a variant of Android, which is a monopoly. I point out that whilst AOSP is open source, much of what makes an Android phone an Android phone (Google Search, Google Chrome, YouTube, Play Store, Maps and more) does require a license from Google. Outside of China, there are very limited options that don't bundle Android with Google's services and even the Chinese phone manufacturers included it in their devices for international sales. Epic's case against Google actually demonstrates Google leveraging this to attempt to exclude Fortnite from OEM devices.

Android itself came seemingly out of nowhere, but it was being worked on back to 2003 or something like that before Google bought them. It's entirely possible that there's another OS being developed out there that will disrupt the current status quo. The fact that the AOSP source is free and open means aspiring OS developers get a head start.

My point is that it's existence as free and open in a sense hampers the commercial market because there is limited value in producing another operating system for profit. Android prior to Google acquiring it was not in a healthy place and had Google not saved it then I doubt they'd have gotten to market alone. Of course Google did acquire them and took steps to open it for free in the service of Google's services businesses.

I'm also not convinced that the reason Windows Mobile and WebOS went away were entirely because of Android. The hardware and software are not truly unrelated to each other-- a great OS on mediocre hardware will fail in the market, just as great hardware with a mediocre OS will.

I've pointed this one out elsewhere that Microsoft made a bunch of fatal missteps along the way with Windows on smartphones. The launch of Windows Phone 7 had significantly less features compared to Windows Phone 6.5, Windows Phone 8 was incompatible with all of the Windows Phone 7 devices. Microsoft didn't treat the threat of iPhone seriously and was slow to adapt then punished the consumers who used them. The phones weren't horrible devices, I spent some quality time with the Nokia Lumia however Microsoft had lost it's entire OEM market to Android almost immediately after Android is released.

WebOS was an interesting one but I think it came too late and HP weren't really able to make it a success in the time they gave it before deciding they wanted to move on. HP had a bunch of other issues at the time but I seem to recall they had a bunch of carrier orders for the WebOS phones that got cancelled once HP cooled. Similarly the Fire Phone never really took off in part because whilst it was Android based, stuff like the Maps API not working properly and it's own App Store really made it distinct enough to put up a barrier to entry (look up API redirection issues on Fire phone for examples of how it never quite worked identically).

That said almost everyone moved much quicker than RIM did with Blackberry who thought they were secure with their particular brand of enterprise lock in.

You might be able to make a case for separate hw/sw markets, but I think there's also the case that there's one market for mobile device systems. Are there any mobile platforms, such as the Intel PC platform, that allows you to install an OS of your choice? I'll admit to not being 'm pretty sure that when you chose a device, the HW and SW are a matched set. If they really can't be purchased independently, then they seem to be one market.

The consumers of the smartphone operating system market is generally the OEMs though and it's their move to from Windows over to Android that eliminated that market for Microsoft. I don't blame them because if you're focusing on differentiating on hardware as your primary driver however that leads to the pairing you talk about. It is also an interesting transition point because prior to the smartphone generation almost every hardware manufacturer had their own operating system to run their devices.

There have been a few projects in the Linux space over time, Nokia's Maemo devices like the N900 could be leveraged to install custom images. The OpenMoko project supported the Neo based devices like Freerunner in the 2000's but that died off around 2010/2011. Along the way folk have tried to put custom Linux distros on various Android devices with varying levels of success and more recently Pinephone are targeting the Linux distros as well. These devices in the smartphone market come and go but they have existed.

As someone who also has a foot in the Linux camp, I must admit I was excited by the prospect of Android bringing Linux to a more mainstream situation but I don't think it's ended up the way I know I'd expected.

I agree with most of your logic on the MS story, but I think you got this bit backwards-- Microsoft had licensed Mosaic and was building IE for Win95 (32bit Windows) and had requested that Netscape avoid the Win95 market, and then backed that request with a threat.

Thanks for fixing that and that's good clarification of it being backwards. Fundamentally Microsoft did a whole heap of nasty ahead of their case which is the key differentiation point between then and Apple's actions now.
 
If governments competition watchdogs consider the app store to be a service that has become essential to the everday lives of society then Apple will be told to change. When a service has become essential to the lives of society and that service is controlled by one entity, governments have always stepped in to make changes. Energy companies, telecommunication companies, TV media companies, have all at one time or another have had government intervention because the company concerned controls too much of the market and thus can dictate terms and conditions that is unfavourable to customers but very favourable to the company purely for the fact that there is no competition.

The app store is run and controlled by ONE company, it has no competion because Apple does not allow any other company to run an ios app store. It therefore controls 100% of the service and thus can set what ever terms and conditions it likes because it knows there is no competition.

Therefore, like i said, if the app store is considered an essential part of society then Apple will be forced into changes.
 
If governments competition watchdogs consider the app store to be a service that has become essential to the everday lives of society then Apple will be told to change.
The iOS App Store is “essential to the everyday lives of society?” 😳

Alright, I’ll bite. For the sake of argument, let’s assume that it is. Let’s assume that society cannot live without third-party apps, and that society cannot live without those apps on iOS. What should happen then if a government tells Apple to change, and Apple decide (like Epic have done with Fortnite) that they just won’t continue to operate the App Store at all in that country under those constraints? (Not such a terribly far-fetched prospect, if bills like this one become law.)

If the iOS App Store is essential to society, then clearly governments cannot allow that to happen. So what should they do? Fine Apple billions of dollars until Apple comply? Compel Apple’s officers and employees to perform the work or face prison? Nationalize their country’s App Store? I’m genuinely curious how you see this playing out.
 
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If governments competition watchdogs consider the app store to be a service that has become essential to the everday lives of society then Apple will be told to change. When a service has become essential to the lives of society and that service is controlled by one entity, governments have always stepped in to make changes. Energy companies, telecommunication companies, TV media companies, have all at one time or another have had government intervention because the company concerned controls too much of the market and thus can dictate terms and conditions that is unfavourable to customers but very favourable to the company purely for the fact that there is no competition.

The app store is run and controlled by ONE company, it has no competion because Apple does not allow any other company to run an ios app store. It therefore controls 100% of the service and thus can set what ever terms and conditions it likes because it knows there is no competition.

Therefore, like i said, if the app store is considered an essential part of society then Apple will be forced into changes.

I have so many questions! Out of interest:

  • Do you consider the App Store an essential part of society?
  • What makes something an essential part of society?
  • What would be the changes you'd expect government to enact?
  • Do you have any similar examples of a company that has 50% of the market and how they were regulated from the energy, telecommunication or TV media companies?

I'm assuming you're also including Google Play Store and the Samsung Galaxy Store in this proposed regulation as theses are also mobile app stores.
 
if the app store is considered an essential part of society

Which is so implausible as to be funny.

Really can't tell if this is a Slippery Slope, Straw Man, or Reductio ab Absurdum.

Either way, there's little value in discussing it because the Apple store is exceptionally highly unlikely to be classed as such.

People do not need Apps on their phone to survive.

And since that's not where we are even close to today, I see little point in even attempting to discuss the merits of a 30% overhead in such an implausible fiction.
 
Epic only cares about creating their own store and charge their own fee to developers
Game Theory? I stay away from youtube channels that derive their content from plagarism and the hard work of otherswith zero appropriate credits given.
 
There is absolutely a discussion to have about Apple having unfair developer practices, where big companies get way more leeway than smaller developers. Also, there’s a conversation to have about the fact that the App Store is the only distribution platform on the iPhone.
This, however, should not be a discussion. Epic games purposely went against apples rules, hoping that Apple would give them special treatment. And then, when Apple didn’t give them special treatment and removed their app from the App Store, they went to the courts crying wolf, despite the fact that Google did the exact same thing.
And now, just two weeks after they said they would never go back on the App Store, they want the court to force Apple to let them back into the App Store because they’re losing money.
This entire situation is completely stupid, especially on Epic's part.
They got themselves into this mess, and now they want the court two just shovel them out of it so they can continue raking in the cash.
I’m sorry, Apple does a lot of shady things, and 30% might be slightly more than I would be comfortable with them taking, but I am not a developer, and I do not run an App Store, so I really can’t have a valid opinion on this. But in this situation, Apple is completely in the right. Epic completely screwed themselves in the situation.
You could call it a... epic fail

The PlayStation and Xbox store have exactly the same deal and they too are the only Distribution Platform on those devices, so why not go after them too? Personally I think its pathic for Epic to come after Apple especially seeing as all the dev support and airtime Apple gave them on keynotes.

I've been a dev/distributor on the ios platform: as a newbie dev the help and support Apple gives you is incredible, when the content went live I saw record numbers, so is the 30% worth it? Yes.
After you become better at dev it's easy to forget the support you received because you don't need it as much.
 
Which is so implausible as to be funny.

Really can't tell if this is a Slippery Slope, Straw Man, or Reductio ab Absurdum.

Either way, there's little value in discussing it because the Apple store is exceptionally highly unlikely to be classed as such.

People do not need Apps on their phone to survive.

And since that's not where we are even close to today, I see little point in even attempting to discuss the merits of a 30% overhead in such an implausible fiction.


I cannot help but think that you are either trolling me or just plain ignorant of the world around you. Why? because you so easily dismiss with prejudice the notion of how important ios apps have become in today's society.

As for your comment of 'People do not need Apps on their phone to survive.', it depends on the person who reads such a comment and their definition of 'survive'. The company Uber needs the app for them to survive, so does Deliveroo and many other 'Gig' companies. Without such an app they no longer exist, neither do their employees who need the job to survive.

Look at the world around you. The app store is no longer a service that provided cheap thrills and entertainment in the way of games, it now provides apps that are so ingrained into people's lives that it's almost impossible to remove them. Banks require you to use their offical banking app. Utility companies require you to use their app so you can monitor your utility usage. Health institutions require you to use an app to make hospital or doctor appointments or to recieve other medial notices. You've got businesses of all shapes and sizes and types designing apps that will help not only their employees but clients and customers to make better use of their services and products.

The app store is so ingrained into today's society that when a client, a business, a government department, the local council, the public needs to be kept abreast of something, a ios app is designed for them.

Look at the world around you before you go easily dismissing how important the app store is in today's society.
 
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cannot help but think that you are either trolling me or just plain ignorant of the world around you

Take a look at my posts detailing supreme court cases before you accuse me of trolling.

And I am far from ignorant of the world around me. In fact I'd like to believe I'm pretty highly in tune.

You want to continue this fantasy then go right ahead. However you're now firmly in the "whataboutulism" world - "what if the app store was classed as an essential service?"

It's not. Period. As much as you want fantasize about the possibility, we live in a world were folk can barely get internet services, yet alone anything else.

You can live without an app store - We all did 10 odd years ago. We can't live without water. We can't live without food.

There are dumb phones available for communication. However they're is not one single app on the app store I need to keep myself alive. Every single app is a luxury item, bar none.

Just because you think that you cannot survive without the app store doesn't make it true.
 
The app store is so ingrained into today's society that when a client, a business, a government department, the local council, the public needs to be kept abreast of something, a ios app is designed for them.

And there you go proving my point. I need to know what my city's doing, I don't use an app, I use a web browser. No phone? Use a computer. No computer? I can CALL them.

And only an iOS app? What, they don't create Android apps as well?
 
Epic: "We created an app and added to the App Store under the standard terms. That app popularity grew tremendously and we have decided we don't want to give Apple a cut anymore under the terms we signed up under. We'd like the courts to allow us to do whatever we want as we sue Apple to by pass their terms. We figured out some math that says we can give the customer a 20% discount, remove Apple's 30% cut, all while increasing our profits 10%! We are geniuses."
 
And there you go proving my point. I need to know what my city's doing, I don't use an app, I use a web browser. No phone? Use a computer. No computer? I can CALL them.

And only an iOS app? What, they don't create Android apps as well?

No, what you have done is look for a very ridiculous and most illogical scenerio to try and justify your point. You failed.
 
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No, what you have done is look for a very ridiculous and most illogical scenerio to try and justify your point. You failed.

OK, let me get this straight - you created a fictionalized view of the future and want to argue based on that, and are annoyed because I won't entertain you here?

OK...

The plain fact of the matter is that, despite your protestations otherwise, the app store is not an essential service, therefore arguing the why’s and wherefore’s is pointless.

Let’s keep to facts and not fiction.
 
Epic: "We created an app and added to the App Store under the standard terms. That app popularity grew tremendously and we have decided we don't want to give Apple a cut anymore under the terms we signed up under. We'd like the courts to allow us to do whatever we want as we sue Apple to by pass their terms. We figured out some math that says we can give the customer a 20% discount, remove Apple's 30% cut, all while increasing our profits 10%! We are geniuses."

Why shouldn't they? Epic using their own payment system means they are not using anything of Apples that all the millions of free apps are not using. So why shouldn't they be allowed to do what a free app does, which is provide nothing financially to Apple.
 
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OK, let me get this straight - you created a fictionalized view of the future and want to argue based on that, and are annoyed because I won't entertain you here?

OK...

The plain fact of the matter is that, despite your protestations otherwise, the app store is not an essential service, therefore arguing the why’s and wherefore’s is pointless.

Let’s keep to facts and not fiction.

Now i know your trolling!!!!. What I wrote about in my post regarding the apps is happening TODAY!!!, Uber app, banking apps, health apps, it's not a fictionalized view of the furture, it is what is happening in todays society. Anyone who says they are aware of what's going on around them would know and see this. For you to say it's fictionalized tells me your lieing about what you know about todays society because if your not lieing they your trolling just to get a response out of me.
 
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If governments competition watchdogs consider the app store to be a service that has become essential to the everday lives of society then Apple will be told to change.

Good luck with getting governments to push that kind of agenda when many cant agree that internet connectivity is even essential and most not interested in setting standards for minimum connection speeds.
 
Why shouldn't they? Epic using their own payment system means they are not using anything of Apples that all the millions of free apps are not using. So why shouldn't they be allowed to do what a free app does, which is provide nothing financially to Apple.

1. Epic are free to use their own payment system. However they cannot promote alternative methods ANYWHERE from within the apps interface without paying.

2. Because even free apps get charged exactly the same as Epic did 30% + $99 developer fees.

*30% of zero is zero
 
Why shouldn't they? Epic using their own payment system means they are not using anything of Apples that all the millions of free apps are not using. So why shouldn't they be allowed to do what a free app does, which is provide nothing financially to Apple.
Free Apps don't offer direct payments in-app. That's the key. Epic could easily get the Fortnite back in the store during the lawsuit by removing a feature that was never there to begin with. They are choosing not to.
 
Now i know your trolling!!!!. What I wrote about in my post regarding the apps is happening TODAY!!!, Uber app, banking apps, health apps, it's not a fictionalized view of the furture, it is what is happening in todays society. Anyone who says they are aware of what's going on around them would know and see this. For you to say it's fictionalized tells me your lieing about what you know about todays society because if your not lieing they your trolling just to get a response out of me.

I’m not going to be discussing this any further, especially as you accused me of trolling. There’s a respect factor involved and if you can’t keep it civil without name calling then what’s the point?
 
Free Apps don't offer direct payments in-app. That's the key. Epic could easily get the Fortnite back in the store during the lawsuit by removing a feature that was never there to begin with. They are choosing not to.

If Fortnite used it's own in-app payment service, they would be using up the exact same services and resources that a free app would, wouldn't they?
 
If Fortnite used it's own in-app payment service, they would be using up the exact same services and resources that a free app would, wouldn't they?
Well no.

1. Asking for a payment requires more resources then not asking for a payment, but that's a nit to pick against the bigger issue that
2. It's in violation of the devs agreement to do so.
 
Why shouldn't they? Epic using their own payment system means they are not using anything of Apples that all the millions of free apps are not using. So why shouldn't they be allowed to do what a free app does, which is provide nothing financially to Apple.
Why should Epic make money off of Apple's infrastructure? Apple has no issue with free apps. Apple provides the infrastructure and review and if an app wants to collect payment why shouldn't apple be entitled to a portion of it. (In fact they are and they do, so this is a moot point, it's a win/win)
 
If Fortnite used it's own in-app payment service, they would be using up the exact same services and resources that a free app would, wouldn't they?
Yep. But just like a donut shop owner is perfectly free to give away free donuts to whomever they‘d like, presumably paid for by the fact that others pay full price, so, too, is Apple free to decide who should pay and who doesn’t have to.
 
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