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Well no.

1. Asking for a payment requires more resources then not asking for a payment, but that's a nit to pick against the bigger issue that
2. It's in violation of the devs agreement to do so.

Please explain how so. If Epic use their own payment system, the only resources they are using are their own. The game would be coded to direct the player to Epic's payment system, thereby having nothing to do with Apple, not using any more resources than a free app would.

Therefore, the ONLY difference between the services and resources used up by a free app to that of an in-app purchase app is the wording of the terms and conditions..correct?
 
If governments competition watchdogs consider the app store to be a service that has become essential to the everday lives of society then Apple will be told to change. When a service has become essential to the lives of society and that service is controlled by one entity, governments have always stepped in to make changes. Energy companies, telecommunication companies, TV media companies, have all at one time or another have had government intervention because the company concerned controls too much of the market and thus can dictate terms and conditions that is unfavourable to customers but very favourable to the company purely for the fact that there is no competition.

The app store is run and controlled by ONE company, it has no competion because Apple does not allow any other company to run an ios app store. It therefore controls 100% of the service and thus can set what ever terms and conditions it likes because it knows there is no competition.

Therefore, like i said, if the app store is considered an essential part of society then Apple will be forced into changes.
It depends. The App store depends on iphone, which depends on ios. Is iphone a monopoly or ios a monopoly? It depends on how narrow the definition is and what is deemed essential. One can use ios without the app store, but cannot use the (ios) app store without ios and iphone.
 
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Yep. But just like a donut shop owner is perfectly free to give away free donuts to whomever they‘d like, presumably paid for by the fact that others pay full price, so, too, is Apple free to decide who should pay and who doesn’t have to.

Not in a 'free market' where there is only ONE store, a store that they have 100% total control over. Which is why governments around the world get involved because they do not take kindly to such situations occuring.
 
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Please explain how so. If Epic use their own payment system, the only resources they are using are their own. The game would be coded to direct the player to Epic's payment system, thereby having nothing to do with Apple, not using any more resources than a free app would.

Therefore, the ONLY difference between the services and resources used up by a free app to that of an in-app purchase app is the wording of the terms and conditions..correct?
So my reply wasn't that clear. You're focused on resources, and I'm focused on these are not my rules, but I don't see any reason for Apple to be happy for being cut out of getting some payment for hosting the app. IOW Epic is greedy.
 
Not in a 'free market' where there is only ONE store, a store that they have 100% total control over. Which is why governments around the world get involved because they do not take kindly to such situations occuring.
"Getting involved" does not mean anything is going to be done.
 
It depends. The App store depends on iphone, which depends on ios. Is iphone a monopoly or ios a monopoly? It depends on how narrow the definition is and what is deemed essential. One can use ios without the app store, but cannot use the (ios) app store without ios and iphone.

You and others keep bringing the iphone into the discussion. The issue has got absolutly nothing to do with the actual physical iphone, it's purely to do with the app store and the rules and conditions set in using the app store.
 
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Not in a 'free market' where there is only ONE store, a store that they have 100% total control over. Which is why governments around the world get involved because they do not take kindly to such situations occuring.
Except there isn’t just one store. There’s just one *APPLE* store. Just like there’s one PsychoDonuts. You are free to buy any android device you want and then you never have to worry about the apple store - heck, there are lots of *free* android phones you can get.

And the courts have said more than once that you can’t have a monopoly on your own product. And no court has ever found that an arrangement like the AppStore is illegal.
 
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So my reply wasn't that clear. You're focused on resources, and I'm focused on these are not my rules, but I don't see any reason for Apple to be happy for being cut out of getting some payment for hosting the app. IOW Epic is greedy.

But if Epic in wanting to use their own payment system is not using ANY more Apple resources than that of a free app then how can Epic be greedy?
 
Except there isn’t just one store. There’s just one *APPLE* store. Just like there’s one PsychoDonuts. You are free to buy any android device you want and then you never have to worry about the apple store - heck, there are lots of *free* android phones you can get.

And the courts have said more than once that you can’t have a monopoly on your own product. And no court has ever found that an arrangement like the AppStore is illegal.

An uterly ridiculous example. The 'donut' is not a unique and specialised item. There are multiple donut shops ones can go to if they are not happy with whats on offer. IOS is unique and specialised and is only found on specific Apple products. If someone is not happy with what is on offer at the app store, there is no other IOS app store they can go to. They are stuck with what's on offer at the only IOS store available and have to abide by the offers available. If they do not like the offers, it's a case of tough, either put up with it or use a completely different type of mobile phone that uses a completly different mobile OS. Not exactly ideal.
 
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But if Epic in wanting to use their own payment system is not using ANY more Apple resources than that of a free app then how can Epic be greedy?

If Epic want to setup their own cash register for their products in your shop without paying you anything.

would you be happy ?
 
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An uterly ridiculous example. The 'donut' is not a unique and specialised item. There are multiple donut shops ones can go to if they are not happy with whats on offer. IOS is unique and specialised and is only found on specific Apple products. If someone is not happy with what is on offer at the app store, there is no other IOS app store they can go to. They are stuck with what's on offer at the only IOS store available and have to abide by the offers available. If they do not like the offers, it's a case of tough, either put up with it or use a completely different type of mobile phone that uses a completly different mobile OS. Not exactly ideal.

So?

If I want electricity in my house, my only options are generate myself, or use Duke Energy.

Let me know when Duke are going to be prosecuted for running a monopoly in SW Ohio.

You keep arguing emotive terms yet you have yet to present any actual law that backs up these emotive terms.

The world runs on laws, not desires.

You can complain until the cows come home on this. However until you can actually point to a law that is being broken, and why, all you got is an opinion. And your opinion does not a law make, more proof a law is being broken.

In fact, I’m not even sure you even grasp the why’s and wherefore’s of a monopoly. You seem to be of the opinion that monopolies are illegal when the actual fact is, most monopolies are not only legal, but many are state sanctioned monopolies.
 
But if Epic in wanting to use their own payment system is not using ANY more Apple resources than that of a free app then how can Epic be greedy?
Because it's apple's app store and apples rules. Epic is bound by the developer agreement, which insofar as I know, has not been invalidated. Apple is entitled to it's 30%, and if Epic wants to pay it another way, maybe Apple would be amenable to that. You're focused on cutting Apple out, with some argument about resources. The question is: why should Apple allow themselves to be cut-out of a revenue stream from their own services?
 
An uterly ridiculous example. The 'donut' is not a unique and specialised item. There are multiple donut shops ones can go to if they are not happy with whats on offer. IOS is unique and specialised and is only found on specific Apple products. If someone is not happy with what is on offer at the app store, there is no other IOS app store they can go to. They are stuck with what's on offer at the only IOS store available and have to abide by the offers available. If they do not like the offers, it's a case of tough, either put up with it or use a completely different type of mobile phone that uses a completly different mobile OS. Not exactly ideal.

It’s not at all a ridiculous comparison, because it’s how the law works.

Stan’s donuts makes unique donuts. You can’t get stan’s donuts at any other donut shop. Stan has a monopoly on stan’s donuts.

You are saying APple has a monopoly on ios. But the law says that can’t be the case - see the Psystar case cited in Apple’s briefing, which specifically said you cannot have a monopoly on your own product.

It may not be “exactly ideal” that you can buy an android phone instead, but that’s how competition works. A free market doesn’t force all companies to use identical business models and make identical products, by punishing a company for doing something different. Instead, it say ‘the market has multiple competitors - samsung, LG, etc. If you don‘t like what Apple charges or you don’t like the way they do business, are there reasonable alternatives?‘. And there are.
 
You and others keep bringing the iphone into the discussion. The issue has got absolutly nothing to do with the actual physical iphone, it's purely to do with the app store and the rules and conditions set in using the app store.
Unless you are a lawyer specializing in this type of case law in the US, you cannot possibly know " The issue has got absolutly nothing to do with the actual physical iphone", which is your opinion only.
 
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An uterly ridiculous example. The 'donut' is not a unique and specialised item. There are multiple donut shops ones can go to if they are not happy with whats on offer. IOS is unique and specialised and is only found on specific Apple products. If someone is not happy with what is on offer at the app store, there is no other IOS app store they can go to. They are stuck with what's on offer at the only IOS store available and have to abide by the offers available. If they do not like the offers, it's a case of tough, either put up with it or use a completely different type of mobile phone that uses a completly different mobile OS. Not exactly ideal.

You have just made your own point redundant.

I can't buy a Krispy Kreme donut in Dunkin' either, not matter how hard I try.

Food is VERY unique and specialised. And I guarantee you, that there is every bit as much market research done in both those franchises I just mentioned as any mobile phone manufacturer.
 
Unless you are a lawyer specializing in this type of case law in the US, you cannot possibly know " The issue has got absolutly nothing to do with the actual physical iphone", which is your opinion only.
Consumers buy phones, not app stores. And antitrust law is generally concerned with the effect of competition on consumers (prices, etc.).

There’s this weird idea that Apple making things difficult for developers is somehow relevant.
 
You have just made your own point redundant.

I can't buy a Krispy Kreme donut in Dunkin' either, not matter how hard I try.

Food is VERY unique and specialised. And I guarantee you, that there is every bit as much market research done in both those franchises I just mentioned as any mobile phone manufacturer.

But I want Krispy Kreme to be forced to make Dunkin’s apple cider donut, but with Krispy Kreme glaze! It’s not fair that they won’t do that, and antitrust something blah blah blah!
 
But I want Krispy Kreme to be forced to make Dunkin’s apple cider donut, but with Krispy Kreme glaze! It’s not fair that they won’t do that, and antitrust something blah blah blah!

Think I'm gonna head over to the donut forum with a bucket of popcorn and see how this unfolds 😂
 
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"Getting involved" does not mean anything is going to be done.
Indeed. Especially when “getting involved” means “telling a corporation how to operate”. If a country becomes known for being antagonistic to normal business practices, that WON’T stop at “App Stores”. Every company that has a contract with any other company in that country will understand that having a presence in that company is detrimental and will take steps to extricate themselves.

Which, I guess, will be good for whatever local phone and OS companies that government has?
 
If Epic want to setup their own cash register for their products in your shop without paying you anything.

would you be happy ?

Would I be happy, no BUT i would accept it because it would have been my fault that created the problem in the first place. If no extra resources are being used and thus costing me no money, I do not have the right to complain if someone takes advantage of something I produced which is offered free to everyone.
 
Would I be happy, no BUT i would accept it because it would have been my fault that created the problem in the first place. If no extra resources are being used and thus costing me no money, I do not have the right to complain if someone takes advantage of something I produced which is offered free to everyone.

But its NOT free to everyone, you are charging 30% to EVERYONE
 
Would I be happy, no BUT i would accept it because it would have been my fault that created the problem in the first place. If no extra resources are being used and thus costing me no money, I do not have the right to complain if someone takes advantage of something I produced which is offered free to everyone.

Oh come on. No shop owner would put up with such a thing.

And apple doesn‘t offer anything “free to everyone.” Contracts have meaning, and the obligations one accepts when entering into a contract are not nothing.
 
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Would I be happy, no BUT i would accept it because it would have been my fault that created the problem in the first place. If no extra resources are being used and thus costing me no money, I do not have the right to complain if someone takes advantage of something I produced which is offered free to everyone.


Oh come on. No shop owner would put up with such a thing.

And apple doesn‘t offer anything “free to everyone.” Contracts have meaning, and the obligations one accepts when entering into a contract are not nothing.

Its funny, as Laptech appears to be that easily exploitable personality that the App Store actually protects from malicious developer behaviour.
 
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Would I be happy, no BUT i would accept it because it would have been my fault that created the problem in the first place. If no extra resources are being used and thus costing me no money, I do not have the right to complain if someone takes advantage of something I produced which is offered free to everyone.

So, copyright protection is just a mythical concept?
 
Some fallacies going on here. iOS, iPhone and the App Store currently are indivisible In practical terms. Yes some “kid” can hack the hardware to install whatever, but that is not a counter example in practice. For one it voids the warranty of the device. I understand why some want to wing this fallacy ... but lets have a honest discussion ok? This is no example of choice and freedom.

Digital/Software businesses create products/services for customers. To compete, digital business need to serve customers wherever they care, that today includes in great part, to be on smartphones. In the US one in two Americans have chosen a specific kind of smartphone, from a specific brand, iOS/iPhone. Therefore Digital businesses need to be there unless they want to leave 50% of their customer behind in the context of smartphones. Notice that I haven’t up until now, in this totally logical reasoning, even touch the surface of the App Store.

Now, the App Store. The App Store service banks on the above, as it is mandatory to install any app on those device. Simple. There is not compedition to this Store. Yes, there is competition on smartphones, but not to this store for 50% of US customers on smartphones.

Apple should be payed for the use of their infrastructure. Yet using its infrastructure is not an option of course if you are a digital business approaching consumers. Due to this Apple enjoys the power to fix the price of its infrastructure/service as far as the ability to install and distrubte apps usage goes regardless of compeition. Regardless of the market price of its components individually (App hosting, Payment, App Advertising).

Did you guys have understood the above? It’s very simple. What are the side effects ... well at least three:

1) In a market where the components of this infrastructure are not forced in, we can find services that way cheaper. From this, two things can happen. Either the prices of apps and services are up to cope for the 30%, or digital business have less available “income” to provide better services.

2) The App Store owner its self as it happens, can choose to compete with any of the products its ”sells”. So digital businesses not only face the hurdle of higher prices for app distribution but need to compete with the products that the store owner builds With the money fuels. This again, hurts competition.

3) Maybe the more interesting as it is starting come to light. Digital business that decide not to put their services on the App Store because of lack of choice to do so. Epic, xCloud, Stadia ... heck Netflix, Spotify ... are there because they need to otherwise go out of business. This for sure directly hurts the Consumer choice of digital services to use on their smartphones way beyond they expected.

Now. To counter the above Apple touts a few billions in App Store revenue. True compare that with the billions aren’t in tthe App Store, yet using a more competitive landscape of cloud services and infrastructure, who is really winning in terms of contributing to the economy ... The conclusion, is that those billions n the App Store are little more than the result of a mandatory concentration, not actually contribution.

An interesting story. A couple of days ago decided to start using the Adobe products for photography (I’m an amateur street photographer ... for fun). Went to the App Store and download Lightroom to my iPad Pro 12.9” from 2020. Albeit the use of the app was free I was presented with in app payment service, a Premium subscription that would simply allow me to synch the photos in LR across multiple device .. $8 per month or so ... just for the Lightroom on iOS. Now, I remembered there were other options to subscribe to LR but none were presented ... So as far as the App Store goes, there was not other options available. Gladly we have the Web not built and managed by a monopoly, so I went to the Adobe site. Behold, a plan of $10 bucks that not only a provided synch, I could now install LR AND Photoshop on iOS, Mac, Windows and Android ... just for $2 more per month.

So how can Adobe offer so much more just for $2? Well, this way of subscribing meant that no revenue needed to be shared with Apple, case in case 30% hence the actual service provider is able to provide a better service at a lower cost.

Two pernicious things can potentially be revealed in this process. One, is that the App Store did not informed me that there were more cost effective option, neither did the App because of the store policy forbidding such measures. I can imagine this happening all over the place in the App Store, collectively rising prices and devaluing digital services in favor of the App Store. The second, is that given Adobe shared nothing with Apple through this approach, who actually payed for hosting the App on the App Store? Two possibilities: Customers that are uninformed of better deals given the App Store policy and other digital services/publishers ... say for instance Affinity Photo. So in effect, Adobe competition in my case payed to Adobe to be able to provide they service free of charge as far as the App Store infrastructure goes, an example of fair practice both to devs and the customer right?

I like to have one place that I can go to install and update the apps that I have bought, and maybe I even search for them. But I wonder if what is happening in the backstage is actually to my benefit as a customer. Now, as you can see I’m a very informed customer, way way way above average.

We can discuss statistics, but statics are just result. What is in question is how those results are achieved, the process to achieve those results are fair to App Store customers or not? (wether customer come from buying devices or being digital services that need to use the infrastructure to reach their customers).

So back to the beginning for you guys not to get lost in the implications. It all started with one in two Americans using an iOS device. Some might argue that these user can always choose another device. True. But the fact is that these users are not informed over what happens in the backstage that reflects on their wallets negatively every month ... and as another op posted, they should not need to care at all ... competition should level that thing out ... but there is none really. Just ways to get around some policies which also has negative side effects as my little practical story described. The difference between practice and pumping the statistical marketing.

Cheers.
 
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