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They could very well have a different feeling, but it wouldn’t be justified. In a free market, companies are allowed to charge what they want. If it’s too much, the market will take care of itself.

Indeed and it's why I know Apple will have to change their current rules.

If Game streaming services become the norm, which, with broadband speeds continuing to increase and become available to more and more people around the world.
And imagine millions of children in poor countries being able to play AAA game titles on their old cheap computer/tablet simply as all they need is a web browser. They don't need an expensive system
How wonderful that will be for them.

If we end up with multiple game streaming companies, from Geforce, Microsoft, Google etc.
There is no way Apple will be able to maintain it's current stance long term.

They may try to negotiate deals with game companies and try to re-invent the wheel and create their own game streaming service. Not sure if that would be good enough though.

Really think they will be forced to class steamed games in the same way they class streamed movies and music.
Using the "we must be able to review every game" everyone knows this is just a make up excuse as they are trying to protect their own gaming service, which according to reports is starting to struggle now.
 
Hope this thing blows up in Epics' face. It would put an end to this.
Apple may win this battle but they’re going to lose the war. If they don’t make changes government regulators will force them to.
 
People keep throwing around the word “monopoly” without knowing what the word means.

"the exclusive possession or control of the supply of or trade in a commodity or service."

According to you doesn't Apple have monopoly on providing the service of exploring, browsing and installing apps on iOS?
 
"the exclusive possession or control of the supply of or trade in a commodity or service."

According to you doesn't Apple have monopoly on providing the service of exploring, browsing and installing apps on iOS?

And you prove his point. This would be like saying Walmart has a monopoly IN IT'S OWN STORES.

When you count the rest of the service (Being cell phones and apps) then no, Apple doesn't have a monopoly.
 
Indeed and it's why I know Apple will have to change their current rules.

If Game streaming services become the norm, which, with broadband speeds continuing to increase and become available to more and more people around the world.
And imagine millions of children in poor countries being able to play AAA game titles on their old cheap computer/tablet simply as all they need is a web browser. They don't need an expensive system
How wonderful that will be for them.

If we end up with multiple game streaming companies, from Geforce, Microsoft, Google etc.
There is no way Apple will be able to maintain it's current stance long term.

They may try to negotiate deals with game companies and try to re-invent the wheel and create their own game streaming service. Not sure if that would be good enough though.

Really think they will be forced to class steamed games in the same way they class streamed movies and music.
Using the "we must be able to review every game" everyone knows this is just a make up excuse as they are trying to protect their own gaming service, which according to reports is starting to struggle now.

LOL game streaming services becoming the norm. Broadband speeds aren't gonna help game streaming, LATENCY will be what helps. And until we invent something like the ability to use a wormhole for instant file transfers, you're gonna have worse latency for game streaming because it's got an extra step, having to go to the streaming servers.

No game streaming service has taken off because of this and because companies aren't agreeing on a netflix type streaming service.
 
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LOL game streaming services becoming the norm. Broadband speeds aren't gonna help game streaming, LATENCY will be what helps. And until we invent something like the ability to use a wormhole for instant file transfers, you're gonna have worse latency for game streaming because it's got an extra step, having to go to the streaming servers.

No game streaming service has taken off because of this and because companies aren't agreeing on a netflix type streaming service.

I agree for hard core gamers when anything other than perfect is not acceptable.
but most people are not hard core gamers.
I've read and hear many people even on low power chromebooks saying how amazing some of these games play in such a cheap $200 machine.

Note: I'm not saying this is perfect for everyone today. Only that as time goes on, it can and will only get better.
No one can think Speeds and connectivity will be worse in 5, 10, 15 years from now that it is today.
I will of course be better and better, which will mean such gaming methods will also get better and better.

There will of course always be those for which this is not good enough, but it will become less and less people as years pass by.
 
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I agree for hard core gamers when anything other than perfect is not acceptable.
but most people are not hard core gamers.
I've read and hear many people even on low power chromebooks saying how amazing some of these games play in such a cheap $200 machine.

Note: I'm not saying this is perfect for everyone today. Only that as time goes on, it can and will only get better.
No one can think Speeds and connectivity will be worse in 5, 10, 15 years from now that it is today.
I will of course be better and better, which will mean such gaming methods will also get better and better.

There will of course always be those for which this is not good enough, but it will become less and less people as years pass by.

Latency is not going to get that much better in 5-15 years because we've already hit the physics wall. You can't play any action games well on streaming services.

Somebody who has never had a gaming service might find it excellent, but they can also buy a $250 used ps4 and get a way better gaming experience

These streaming services won't be able to stop ultra cheap used last gen or current gen consoles from eating their lunch
 
Latency is not going to get that much better in 5-15 years because we've already hit the physics wall. You can't play any action games well on streaming services.
I have heard otherwise.
The latest podcast "Chromecast" has a big talk about how amazing the Geforce service was playing on a cheap chromebook which was a painfully slow machine, but played the game lovely and smooth:

Here is the link to listen to the podcast.
You (and others) may find it interesting to hear what they are saying about their real world experiences:


" The second half of the podcast centers around GeForce NOW for Chromebooks. As a completely web-based solution to game streaming for Chromebooks, it is not just a rival to Stadia, but a champion in most respects. With a buttery-smooth performance right from the browser-based player, GeForce NOW has tons of games and tons of players to go along with its fantastic playback experience, and its arrival for Chromebooks this week is well worth talking about. "

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts if you'd care to listen to this and hear from people actually trying such a service on low end machines in the real world.
 
"the exclusive possession or control of the supply of or trade in a commodity or service."

According to you doesn't Apple have monopoly on providing the service of exploring, browsing and installing apps on iOS?

No, and that's your problem. You've got it in your head that the moment anyone has a singular position on an item then it's a monopoly.


[There are 3 criteria for a monopoly]
1. There is only one company in the market.
2. There is no close substitute for the product or service offered by that company.
3. Barriers exist for other companies to enter the market.

In a market controlled by a monopoly, that one company can determine prices because of the three criteria listed.

That definition alone technically invalidates everyone who says Google or Apple is a monopoly. That these companies are monopolies is obviously, literally and provably false.

But calling either Google or Apple a "monopoly" is just a lazy exaggeration to imply that it has a "monopolistic" position in the market, which means that although it's not actually a monopoly, it's close enough to be deemed "anticompetitive."
 
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Not if you actually read the article:

"Epic had asked Apple for permission to bypass the in-app purchase system and allow Fortnite players to pay for in-game currency directly"

If Apple allowed Fortnite players to bypass Apple's IAP and pay the developer directly, a) every single user capable of downloading the Fortnite app would see that it is possible, and b) all other developers would demand Apple let them do the same, given their "treat every developer equally rhetoric".

That remains the original and whole point.
Do you understand what a side letter is? An agreement between ONLY Apple and Epic.

If Apple and Epic would have entered into a special deal—for 15 or 20% or whatever revenue share number they may have agreed to—Epic would never have had to implement an alternative payment system.
 
I don't see how your conclusion follows: "market power" does not equal "having a monopoly": you can have enough market power to distort competition without being a monopoly. I do agree Epic needs to prove Apple has such market power, I disagree it means they need to prove Apple is a monopoly.

"That is how that term is used here: a "monopolist" is a firm with significant and durable market power."

The terms are used rather loosely in the FTC discussions, and they are in the Epic complaint and in these MR discussions. There's very few true monopolies.

Apple's IAP and iOS are undeniably tied together: if you want your app to be available in iOS you have to use Apple's IAP for your in-app purchases. Apple's claim will likely be that a) they are not separate products or services b) even if they are, the tying is legal. Epic will likely beg to differ of course.
The counts in Epic's complaint involving tying are between App Distribution, and IAP. They don't involve iOS.

I'd argue that if they aren't separate products or services, then they aren't tied. I'd say two things need to be tied together, not one thing tied to itself. So I don't think I'd say they're "undeniably" tied.

Regardless, the question isn't whether they're tied under your definition, the question is whether they're illegally tied under anti-trust law. I was walking through one interpretation of what needs to be proved for it to be illegal.

I'll also point out that you let a condition slip from your antecedent to your conclusion. If you want your app available on the AppStore and if you want to use IAP, then you must use Apple's IAP. You aren't required to provide in app purchases, so you aren't simply required to use Apple's IAP. Subtle difference in language, but most of the discussions I'm reading suggest that tying means you must buy the second product or service (IAP) if you buy the first product or service that the monopolist has a monopoly in (AppStore).

I can actually agree this might be Epic's strategy, but even assuming it's what Epic is trying, it doesn't make sense without a lawsuit that, even if Epic's lawyers believe it's unlikely to win, has at least some teeth.

If Epic has zero credible legal arguments the suit would be quickly dismissed and they'd then have a much harder time with their "mud slinging". Epic needs a credible lawsuit and their lawyers have definitely assessed whether they have at least some argument to leverage to push it forward.

If not, they will crash and burn quite hard, but this is clearly something they have been planning for a while and I cannot imagine they'd make such a blunder.

Slander doesn't need to be credible to be effective. Look how deeply ingrained this discussion has already become on these forums. This suit will takes at least weeks or months for a decision on a preliminary injunction, and then years before the final suit resolves if Epic is willing to keep prosecuting it.
 
The phone is my property not Appe's. As far as SDK is concerned, Epic would not necessarily need the one from Apple if Apple did not require that only their SDK can be used. Nor does Epic need App Store. In this case Apple first demands that everybody use their tools and then sets whatever price they want. That's not normal and should be fixed legislatively.
Those are not really APIs. These are parts of OS for which I (phone owner) pay when I buy the phone.

The operating system is licensed from Apple not purchased and it's still an API all the way down the stack, even if you're looking at the low level kernel endpoints: it's still an API and still Apple's intellectual property.

However the phone being your property is a reasonable concept and I believe what should happen is that Apple are required to sign third party operating system installations for a reasonable fee so that you might use your hardware as you please.


Android has Google Play but if you want there are other reputable sources for software such as F-Droid. Nothing like that exists for iOS, even if a user is prepared to agree to a waiver, as you do when you trust non-Playstore apps. So, if someone wants to make a product for iOS they have to play by Apple's rules.

I'm happy to pay for quality and for safety (eg: the App Store provides this) but I am against closed hardware and closed software ecosystems out of principle, they are a kind of censorship and anti-freedom. If courts believe in the rights of the individual they would, I hope, find against Apple on this point alone. Epic is a business and they act in their own interests, of course, but maybe they have a point here.

I feel that Apple have the right to license their software how they feel but they should be required to, for a reasonable fee, sign third party operating systems for installation on Apple devices. This means that folk could install their own operating system, especially after Apple stops updating those devices.


Apple has no right to take a 30% fee for in-app purchases, subscription and obstruct alternative payment even though the application gets free via the app store.

Developers have no right to leverage Apple's intellectual property but they can accept a standard license with Apple for use of Apple's intellectual property for a 30% fee of transactions conducted whilst leveraging said intellectual property such as iOS and the iOS SDK's.

None and that is the argument, only reason Apple charges 30% on App Store is because they have a monopoly and they can, not because they deserve it or must in order to cover their cost.

They charge 30% on the App Store as a standard license for use of Apple's intellectual property. Nobody is forcing you to leverage Apple's intellectual property in developing a mobile application however if a developer does wish to use Apple's intellectual property, either directly or indirectly through a third party framework, they must agree to the Apple Developer Program license agreement. As a part of that agreement Apple charges 30% for transactions in the App Store (15% on subs after the first year) on digital content such as apps or other digital products like vbucks. Apple deserves to be compensated for use of their intellectual property and this compensation does not need to bare any relation to their costs in creating said property.
 
That’s your opinion. It by no means is it fact.

Personally it looks to me that they’re attempting to stabilize the OS by removing certain access that has been known to be problematic or a security risk (e.g. kexts or system level access).

They took a huge hit with several recent OS releases that quite possibly where less about the OS and more about bad kernel level extensions etc.

Uhhh yes it is. Windows 10 S is locked down to Microsoft Store purchases only, this is a fact. macOS now defaults to notarized apps - you can right-click open to get passed non-notarized apps, and you can change your Gatekeeper settings in System Preferences.


 
I have heard otherwise.
The latest podcast "Chromecast" has a big talk about how amazing the Geforce service was playing on a cheap chromebook which was a painfully slow machine, but played the game lovely and smooth:

Here is the link to listen to the podcast.
You (and others) may find it interesting to hear what they are saying about their real world experiences:


" The second half of the podcast centers around GeForce NOW for Chromebooks. As a completely web-based solution to game streaming for Chromebooks, it is not just a rival to Stadia, but a champion in most respects. With a buttery-smooth performance right from the browser-based player, GeForce NOW has tons of games and tons of players to go along with its fantastic playback experience, and its arrival for Chromebooks this week is well worth talking about. "

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts if you'd care to listen to this and hear from people actually trying such a service on low end machines in the real world.

I've tried streaming services and literally a cheap ps4 or even a $100 ps3 is better...
 
Okay. Okay. I didn't see a lot of comments from this perspective...

No doubt there have been grumbles and clearly requests (certainly by large corporations) for App Store policy changes, however, clearly most developers aren't aggressively combating the guidelines, including the 30%. So, doesn't that suggest the majority of software developers are satisfied with the agreement (i.e. it isn't unfair)?

I have heard otherwise.
The latest podcast "Chromecast" has a big talk about how amazing the Geforce service was playing on a cheap chromebook which was a painfully slow machine, but played the game lovely and smooth:

Here is the link to listen to the podcast.
You (and others) may find it interesting to hear what they are saying about their real world experiences:


" The second half of the podcast centers around GeForce NOW for Chromebooks. As a completely web-based solution to game streaming for Chromebooks, it is not just a rival to Stadia, but a champion in most respects. With a buttery-smooth performance right from the browser-based player, GeForce NOW has tons of games and tons of players to go along with its fantastic playback experience, and its arrival for Chromebooks this week is well worth talking about. "

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts if you'd care to listen to this and hear from people actually trying such a service on low end machines in the real world.
@Zellio is referring to network limitations, not the client. And, I think, the point was even though network hardware improves there are still inevitable delays.

Consider how often you experience the theoretical maximum of any technology. You don't, and most techies/nerds/geeks routinely estimate at least a 25% loss of the advertised (possible) max speed due to general execution and problems. In terms of network traffic, packets of data are packaged/unpackaged, sent/received over the physical media, and processed. Every device, referred to as nodes, does this. So, your PC, console, tablet, etc send data to your router, that processes it and relays, then probably to a modem, then to a neighborhood router of your ISP, then to another ISP router, then another, and so on. These are known/referred to as "hops." Even if performed very quickly, each node executes at least the aforementioned basic process though sometimes more, such as anti-virus checking, etc. Also, unlike most home networks and even some corporate networks, the WWW has lots of paths data packets can travel. Routers do analyze and choose the seemingly best next node to relay as well as cache the needed information. However, if a node or link goes down, there's extra congestion, or other problem, after noticing a chain of errors or longer transmission times the router will attempt to find and link to another node -- again, of course, requiring extra time. The time taken for a data packet to travel from source to destination, latency, is measured in milliseconds.

With that explained, it might be possible for a network connection's latency to match that of game controllers and other input devices. Although, the possibility is going to vary greatly for each person based upon your home network speed, Internet plan speed, how close the nearest data center is, ISPs' capable bandwidth, number of hops, and current network congestion between each hop.

I've found reported BT device latency numbers to be anywhere from 10 to 500 ms. As a comparison, doing a piing to nvidia.com averaged ~122 ms and google.com averaged 36 ms.

Lastly, the podcast you linked to did say GeForce NOW is "buttery smooth" on their Chromebook though I didn't hear any elaboration, e.g., whether that's just the video and audio content or everything, any input lag, etc.
 
Apple should change their rules. There is simply no explanation why you can buy/rent a movie on Amazon Prime App using your Amazon Account bypassing Apples IAP - but you cannot rent something on Audible/Kindle - or Fortnite. This is anti competitive and discriminatory.

If Apple opens up the AppStore it looses some money it collects currently from IAP but may keep total control. If Apple looses they loose everything including the absolute control over the AppStore. A court could order Apple that the access to the AppStore has to be free (including game streaming services), the prices have to be reasonable and that all members have to be treated equally and non discriminatory - simply no way Amazon Prime is free and Audible is not.
 
Apple should change their rules. There is simply no explanation why you can buy/rent a movie on Amazon Prime App using your Amazon Account bypassing Apples IAP - but you cannot rent something on Audible/Kindle - or Fortnite. This is anti competitive and discriminatory.

Of course there is an explanation. That’s the deal that Amazon and Apple agreed to.
 
since EPIC want so call fair, Apple should introduce tier tax system, those small developer will charge only 15% while EPIC those case should charge for 30% or more base on the total sale. that would be fair.
 
Of course the consumers pays for it. Have you seen how high Apple profits are? We learned recently that big part of it is the huge profits from the App Store. We (consumers) pay for it. Competition (alternative app stores) is known to lower the prices.

This is absolutely false in every possible way. The App Store is profitable because people buy stuff and enjoy the stuff they bought just like any other business on the planet. An alternative app store would have the same costs for the consumer. An app for $3.00 on the App Store would be $3.00 on another Store. The developer might make a little more on that alternative store but the consumer pays $3.00 no matter what.

Mobile apps are already insanely cheap just how much lower do you want a $3.00 game? It isn't the 30% that hurts developers but the fact that a game costs $3.00 and they have to stay at those insanely low prices to stay competitive.

Epic doesn't want to use their own store to save you money. They want to take home 100% of the sales and not 70% to make the bean counters happy. This has zero to do with consumers.
 
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I'll also point out that you let a condition slip from your antecedent to your conclusion. If you want your app available on the AppStore and if you want to use IAP, then you must use Apple's IAP. You aren't required to provide in app purchases, so you aren't simply required to use Apple's IAP. Subtle difference in language, but most of the discussions I'm reading suggest that tying means you must buy the second product or service (IAP) if you buy the first product or service that the monopolist has a monopoly in (AppStore).
The interpretation is more broad actually (emphasis mine):
For our purposes, a tying arrangement may be defined as an agreement by a party to sell one product, but only on the condition that the buyer also purchases a different (or tied) product, or at least agrees that he will not purchase that product from any other supplier.

Slander doesn't need to be credible to be effective. Look how deeply ingrained this discussion has already become on these forums.
The existence of the "ingrained discussion" doesn't give a basis to support the notion that "slander doesn't need to be credible to be effective", because it's not a matter of fact that Epic is slandering nor that their arguments are not credible: it could be that there is an ingrained discussion because Epic has valid points and their arguments are actually credible.
This suit will takes at least weeks or months for a decision on a preliminary injunction, and then years before the final suit resolves if Epic is willing to keep prosecuting it.
If the court allows the case to proceed, it would mean the arguments Epic brings are at least credible in the eyes of the court. If Epic's legal arguments are deemed not credible, the case would be dismissed and Epic would not be able to keep prosecuting it.
 
Why is Apple so petty that they want to remove their developer account? I presume they pay for that. Their Fortnite app violated the rules, they removed the account and so be it.

Do they terminate the developer accounts of every other legit developer that has an app rejected?

Or is Apple just digging their heels in, cuz they know their monopoly might get slashed?
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LOL, there are plenty of JUNK apps that do not violate the terms, and that sours the experience of many users...

It isn't petty at all. There is a license agreement for the develop account that you will follow the rules. Epic violated the developer account rules and breached the agreement. This is not a mistake on one app but the developer clearly intended to violate the rules of the developer account. Apple has every right to terminate that developer account since the contract was breached.

Whats petty is the well thought out PR stunt Epic is putting on to try to get public support for a complete and utter non issue for 99% of users.
 
No its very easy to sideload on android. It's a simple as turning on a setting to allow Downloads from third party apps. That's all you need to do then you can install whatever you want. Jail breaking and rooting are much more complex.

Are you citing that as a positive or negative ? I would absolutely hate for it to be that simple to screw up my phone by downloading from some dodgy app provider.

I would prefer positive outcomes for both sides. Just because EPIC made fun of Apple with that 1984 video, and broke some rules is not grounds for excommunication.

Its not about the 1984 video - its about them being told specifically that they aren't allowed to do something and doing it anyway.

Kids get suspended / expelled from school all the time because they can't stick to the rules.

The operating system is licensed from Apple not purchased and it's still an API all the way down the stack, even if you're looking at the low level kernel endpoints: it's still an API and still Apple's intellectual property.

However the phone being your property is a reasonable concept and I believe what should happen is that Apple are required to sign third party operating system installations for a reasonable fee so that you might use your hardware as you please.

I feel that Apple have the right to license their software how they feel but they should be required to, for a reasonable fee, sign third party operating systems for installation on Apple devices. This means that folk could install their own operating system, especially after Apple stops updating those devices.

I agree with most of what you said with the exception of this. And maybe from a hobbyists point of view its a cool idea, but I don't think any hardware provider should even consider helping another to create an alternative OS installation path for devices that are no longer supported.

At the end of the day the hardware/software combination is still Apples' bread and butter and without continuing hardware sales, Apple as a company will suffer and in turn, the customer IMHO.

Aside from minor software limitations on older devices, there is barely any issues with the software already installed anyhow - if you really want to get newer OS's via jailbreak, sure you could - linux is also apparently on the horizon for iPads, but gods no, don't involve Apple in it.

I still have an 8 year old Gen1 iPad mini knocking around and it can still play games, watch videos, browse most sites etc with pretty much no limitations other than the latest and greatest titles for which updates are no longer available due to iOS9.3 being the latest update.

Same with my trusty iPhone 5s, which is still my daily driver, it won't run iOS 13+ (well can kinda via beta), but I haven't come across any title that won't install on it yet. Thats a 7 year old Phone !!! I don't expect any device to keep being supported for that long and doubt I'd trust another OS install for anything other than curiosities sake.
 
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