Epic Games 'Spent Months' Preparing Lawsuit Against Apple, Codenamed 'Project Liberty'

[4jasontv]

I disagree and thankfully so did the judge.

Again, the threat to ban unreal was absolutely reprehensible, exactly the kind of behavior that has got them so much antitrust scrutiny.

All it shows is that the judge was ignorant because she can't see how Epic generates revenue. Maybe she is ignorant because Apple failed to clarify it, or maybe she has a bias that makes her defend 'the little guy'. protecting the little guy isn't a defense, it's a political move. In the end, it doesn't matter why she did it, all that matters is that theyjudge made a bad call.

 

[I7guy]

They don't need breaking apart necessarily they just need slapping for their current rent seeking and handicapping of services that compete with their own.



Great, so you agree that the idea that Apple shouldn't allow software from third party sources on security grounds is erroneous then.

I don't think they need any "slapping". And yes I agree that your "super secure" statement is erroneous. Most commercial software is not "super secure" as the sarcasm implies and Apple release regular bug patches.

And hopefully Epic will be put in their place for this stunt.

 

[Rob_2811]

All it shows is that the judge was ignorant because she can't see how Epic generates revenue. Maybe she is ignorant because Apple failed to clarify it, or maybe she has a bias that makes her defend 'the little guy'. It doesn't matter. The judge made a bad call.

No, the judge recognised that Apple was trying to bully Epic with a punishment unrelated to the suit and one that would have harmed the wider gaming industry given how widly used Unreal Engine is

Judge Rogers expressed concerns about how Apple preventing Epic from accessing development platforms could impact the gaming business. She also considers that Apple has decided to give “retaliatory” punishment to Epic.

What Apple has done is reached beyond its one contact with Epic Games and is using hard leverage and has slammed Epic Games with this additional penalty. Remember, I just got this case, but it does to me look retaliatory.

 

[4jasontv]

No, the judge recognised that Apple was trying to bully Epic with a punishment unrelated to the suit and one that would have harmed the wider gaming industry given how widly used Unreal Engine is

Apple wanted Epic to not profit from Apple's ecosystem. By allowing Epic the ability to collect royalties and promote their brand via other iOS apps, they took away Apple's right not to conduct business with Epic.

Citing the 'too big to fail' argument does nothing for me. If Epic goes under companies are inconvenienced, but no one is really hurt.

 

[Rob_2811]

Apple wanted Epic to not profit from Apple's ecosystem. By allowing Epic the ability to collect royalties and promote their brand via other iOS apps, they took away Apple's right not to conduct business with Epic.

Citing the 'too big to fail' argument does nothing for me. If Epic goes under companies are inconvenienced, but no one is really hurt.

No she didn't, she upheld the Fortnite ban for now.

What she did do was stop Apple meting out an unrelated petty punishment that would've harmed companys unrelated to the suit.

 

[4jasontv]

No she didn't, she uplheld the Fortnite ban for now.

What she did do was stop Apple meting out an unrelated petty punishment that would've harmed companys unrelated to the suit.

Again. It's not unrelated. All revenue generated by Epic via Apple's property is fair game and companies that generate revenue for Epic are related to Epic. What it would have done is fired a warning shot to developers that their software is tied to the whims of a mad man who could destroy all their work. We could have had the opportunity for developers to sue Epic for putting their livelihoods in jepordy.

 

[Homme]

30% is unrealistic. They knew this going in, but it's still unrealistic.

it is realistic regardless of what you think it isn’t . Any major online store has it, heck even some brick and mortar stores have a similar policy depending on what and where the store is

but Noooooo. It is Apple which takes the firing but not any other store because of that policy.

 

[Rob_2811]

Again. It's not unrelated. All revenue generated by Epic via Apple's property is fair game and companies that generate revenue for Epic are related to Epic. What it would have done is fired a warning shot to developers that their software is tied to the whims of a mad man who could destroy all their work. We could have had the opportunity for developers to sue Epic for putting their livelihoods in jepordy.

Again the courts aren't there to wave the pom poms for big tech, they disagreed and restrained Apple. 👍

 

[Ethosik]

people are able to sideload currently — it’s just annoying. sideloading wouldn’t allow apps to have root access to your device or your data or anything like that. you’ll still need to grant permissions to apps to access your photos, contacts, etc.

correct me if i’m wrong, but sideloading ≠ alternate app stores.

each app would need to be installed manually via downloadable .ipa

i think if apple were to allow this, Epic would back down. they would release fortnite in the app store without Epic Pay, and then release a separate sideload-able version with it.

Then why is Epic suing Google too which allows side loading?

 

[Ethosik]

Epic would probably not put it back in the App Store because if it gets sideloaded they can retain 100% of the money instead of being subject to a 30% cut. Add to it the amount of App Stores and sideloading that would need to be done for apps so they can not be in the App Store and subject to the 30% cut. It will become the Wild West and users will get annoyed they have to go to another App Store or website to get the app they want. No one wants to keep track of that...I don't want to keep track of what streaming service has whatever movie or TV show I may be interested in and it is hard to keep things straight. Next we will have Epic Games Store, Origin, EA launcher, Bethesda Launcher, Xbox Store, Playstation Store, and all of these other ones...not gonna be a good time.

As well, sideloading is possible, but it will super easy if this gets implemented. What is to stop someone from making an ipa that could be installed that is malicious?

And that would essentially undo the privacy label efforts.

 

[Ethosik]

Epic already won a bit, they got Apple to reduce Dev fees for projects under a million revenue I believe. This is a fight worth doing

I don’t think that was Epic’s doing but more of COVID. Small businesses are less likely to survive. I know many that haven’t.

 

[Wildkraut]

Then why is Epic suing Google too which allows side loading?

Because Google anticompetitively demands the exclusion of third party preinstalled Stores, and currently makes it intensionally complicated to install.

 

[Ethosik]

Don't confuse Epic's rhetoric with their goal.

Epic has been talking about Epic Game Store on Android and iOS for a lot longer than this latest battle, with this article from June mentioning that Epic (Sweeny specifically) had talked about iOS/Android versions of the Epic Game Store as far back as December 2018: https://www.techradar.com/news/epic-games-store-to-launch-on-android-ios-devices-why-it-makes-sense

Epic wants Apple and Google's cut gone, but they also want to become distributor on these platforms themselves. Sideloading is one way to potentially enable it, but you can bet that if this comes down in a narrow decision that really only helps distributors, then Epic will 100% take it and let the little guys rot.

Someone else in the thread already commented that this is a spat between rich people squabbling over who gets to get X% richer vs Y% richer. Which is absolutely on point.

And then we will see the exclusives come out. People on this site like to say "keep using Apple's App Store - it WILL NOT impact you AT ALL" do not realize what happened with Steam and Epic Games Store on PC. How Epic purchased exclusivity deals and removed already pre-orderable games from Steam due to being an Epic Store exclusive.

 

[Ethosik]

Say what you want about Apple's cut but not having to deal with payment systems, refunds, etc. is a huge headache and one many indie developers don't need.

As someone who's built e-commerce systems, payment systems are not easy. Chargebacks are not fun. And what happens when a developer decides to fold up shop and all of their in-app paid content goes with it because they need to verify what the user bought, how to serve it, etc.?

I can see where Epic is coming from if they are actually able to do all of this right but Apple wants to treat all developers the same. Yeh, let's let small indie developers control their own in-app payment systems for micro conversions. What could possibly go wrong with that scenario?

And what about built-in parental controls and spending limits?

The only way I can see Apple letting people do in-app payments themselves is if Apple provides the actual merchant processing and API, eg some form of Apple Pay for micro-conversions, that's opened up on a case-by-case basis for businesses who already do a few million per year.

People griping about 30% have clearly never run a business. Whatever tax or fee it is, from credit card processing to hosting to paying employees, the rent is always too damn high.

That would just open up more can of worms for Apple. You treat company X a certain way but not Company Y. People are already going after Apple for Amazon being treated differently. Oh boo hoo, I do not expect my company to have the same treatment as Amazon. Who cares if massive companies cause change.

 

[Ethosik]

What people forget in here, it's not only about Apple, Epic, some Games and Apps, etc. Most people didn't realize that the out coming of this fight will have a much broader impact. Specially because Apple, Google & Co. are getting their feet more and more into other market types like healthcare, pub transport, etc. and Phones turning into peoples primary devices. This case will set the direction of what we will generally encounter everywhere in the future, and with Apple winning it won't be a bright one. A future full of wallet gardens and finger clamps, incl. healthcare, not only Apple wallet gardens. People will have to pay till their wallets bleed badly, and if you can't pay you're trash.

....Why would this suddenly make every Android device become a walled garden? What is SO bad about have competitors with different advantages/disadvantages? What is happening to society? Android phones can yell non stop that "We offer an open system while our competitor is a walled garden". Perfectly fine.

 

[Ethosik]

Great, so you agree that the idea that Apple shouldn't allow software from third party sources on security grounds is erroneous then.

Why have any laws? People still commit murder even though there is a risk of jail. People still steal from stores. And so on. Nothing is 100%.....EVER. Therefore, the idea is NOT erroneous. Just like laws.

 

[Ethosik]

The main thing here is, its all distributed and not tied to a centralized service in possession of one corporation.


Really? Did you ever try to reset and/or re-activate an iDevice which is still somehow tied to a suspended AppleID?
I bet this won't work!
iDevice msg: This iDevice is linked to AppleID: e**c @ icloud.com please enter blah blah password to activate -> error account is does not exist, this would probably be the resulting scenario. And the problem probably starts with FindMyiPhone.

Suspended AppleIDs does not have access to Apple Internet Services, and Apple Internet Services are tied to their *cough - your* Devices and *cough - your* Apps, more or less depending of their implementation. Believe it or not, it's simple like that, they can snap you off whenever they want, just like Thanos. In addition to this comes unknown errors and crashes because *cough - your* App will try to access resources which does not exist anymore.


Ohh this reminds me of South Park, you agreed, too.

Legal - Website Terms of Use - Apple

"You agree that Apple may, in its sole discretion and without prior notice, terminate your access to the Site and/or block your future access to the Site if we determine that you have violated these Terms of Use or other agreements or guidelines which may be associated with your use of the Site."

In simpler words, you own nothing. Your iDevices requires Apples "Internet services", their Servers and Services for Device activations, and they can terminate your access anytime.

Or, I don't know just a WILD idea here, you don't wire up every single thing in your life to one account. Still have a door with a physical key lock in case your HomeKit lock fails to work. Still have a way to manually open your garage door if your Smart Garagedoor opener fails. You get the idea.

 

[4jasontv]

Again the courts aren't there to wave the pom poms for big tech, they disagreed and restrained Apple. 👍

Why would I expect them to wave the pom poms? They clearly don't understand the business.

 

[Pakaku]

Except no one using the Unreal Engine is unrelated to Epic. As soon as they agreed to the terms to use their code they tied their franchises and companies content to Epic. They are ultimately the product that Epic is trying to extract wealth from. You can't use Unreal and not be associated with Epic any more than you can make iOS apps and not be associated with Apple.

They're associated with Epic's tool, but that doesn't mean they agree with Epic's politics. Fortnite broke the App Store rules, so punishing Epic is the right decision. Blocking an entire tool that many unrelated devs use is unfair, because they don't work for Epic and have not worked on Fortnite.

 

[4jasontv]

They're associated with Epic's tool, but that doesn't mean they agree with Epic's politics, and I don't think punishing Epic by blocking a tool available to many developers outside of Epic's company is very fair because that punishes many unrelated devs. Blocking the game that was breaking the App Store ToS, Fortnite, was the right decision.

The developers hooked their wagon to Epic when they accepted the tools. They are collateral damage, sure, but it's a risk they accepted when they accepted the engine.

 

[I7guy]

Again the courts aren't there to wave the pom poms for big tech, they disagreed and restrained Apple. 👍

Apple doesn't win them all, but the judge also let the developer ban stand. Epic didn't get off the hook and that could bode very well for apple.

 

[philosopherdog]

So bizarre. They think they should be able to use apple's platform without having to pay any portion of sales. Totally delusional. Apple is a business not a charity. Smarten up.

 

[DaRev]

I’m still waiting for Microsoft and Sony to cut there App fees to 15% for smaller Indy developers. If we are going to take down app stores let’s burn them all to the ground and force big box retailers to reduce their profit margins while paying out more to the companies that create the products. Down with Capitalism!!!!!!!!! /s

 

[reyesmac]

Huge companies (even Apple) are used to short changing the government by paying as little tax as possible. They hate it when they can't do the same with other companies. Frankly Fortnite could have figured out how to do their subscriptions on PC or any other devices only and screwed Apple out of all the money. They would not have lost out too much by forcing iOS and Mac users to go to their own website to subscribe or purchase things. They could have had an easy web interface for that and bypass the App Store altogether. They should have known better than to pick a fight with a company that is holding all the cards and is as tight fisted as Apple is.

 

[I7guy]

Huge companies (even Apple) are used to short changing the government by paying as little tax as possible. They hate it when they can't do the same with other companies. Frankly Fortnite could have figured out how to do their subscriptions on PC or any other devices only and screwed Apple out of all the money. They would not have lost out too much by forcing iOS and Mac users to go to their own website to subscribe or purchase things. They could have had an easy web interface for that and bypass the App Store altogether. They should have known better than to pick a fight with a company that is holding all the cards and is as tight fisted as Apple is.

Tax avoidance (not tax evasion) is a time honored tradition. With some few exceptions, those who want to make a point, most I would think try to pay as little tax that's legally required. But I agree with the sentiment about Epic staging this and then picking a fight.