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What people forget in here, it's not only about Apple, Epic, some Games and Apps, etc. Most people didn't realize that the out coming of this fight will have a much broader impact. Specially because Apple, Google & Co. are getting their feet more and more into other market types like healthcare, pub transport, etc. and Phones turning into peoples primary devices. This case will set the direction of what we will generally encounter everywhere in the future, and with Apple winning it won't be a bright one. A future full of wallet gardens and finger clamps, incl. healthcare, not only Apple wallet gardens. People will have to pay till their wallets bleed badly, and if you can't pay you're trash.
The other way to look at this, is that Apple winning will generally cause the IOS ecosystem to really shine more than it already does. I think walled gardens for IOS is a good thing. And the competition will cause people to leave apple if they are better at doing something than apple is.
 
What people forget in here, it's not only about Apple, Epic, some Games and Apps, etc. Most people didn't realize that the out coming of this fight will have a much broader impact. Specially because Apple, Google & Co. are getting their feet more and more into other market types like healthcare, pub transport, etc. and Phones turning into peoples primary devices. This case will set the direction of what we will generally encounter everywhere in the future, and with Apple winning it won't be a bright one. A future full of wallet gardens and finger clamps, incl. healthcare, not only Apple wallet gardens. People will have to pay till their wallets bleed badly, and if you can't pay you're trash.

Ahh, the slippery slope argument. Why hasn’t this dystopian future happened already? The reason being is there are choices and the user is free to go anywhere. What you want is already available on Android and you are free to go there….sideload all you want.

Only Epic has already tried that by initially being distributed by side loading only. This created a problem where the number of users didn’t increase like projected and the security risks went up exponentially (Google’s own research shows that apps distributed outside of the Play store carry a 9x risk of malware). Epic then had to relent and release on the Google Play Store.


“It didn't take long for a problem to crop up. Just two days after Fortnite became available on Android, a Google engineer discovered a vulnerability that could let a hacker replace the app with a fake version of the game -- known in cybersecurity circles as a man-in-the-disk attack because it uses openings with external storage like your SD card to install malware.”


Fortnite only became broadly available on Android this week. But on August 3, the day of Sweeney’s announcement, WIRED quickly discovered seven sites advertising themselves as Android Fortnite downloads. Analysis from mobile security company Lookout found that each of those sites distributed malware to anyone who fell for the scam.”


”Epic Games’ decision to publish the Android version of Fortnite outside of the Play Store is a very poor choice for the security of their players. Android devices are already far more susceptible to malware than Apple devices…..

Fortnite trojans reflect a malware trend that Comodo research has observed lately, specifically pertaining to Android. Read more about the rise of Android trojans of all kinds in the latest Comodo Global Threat Report for Q2 2018”



The researchers at Unit 42 found an Android Remote Access Tool (RAT) called SpyNote. This piece of malware has a number of vicious backdoor features, which include the ability to:

  • View all messages
  • Listen in on phone calls
  • Activate a device's camera or mic remotely
  • Track the device via GPS
  • Install APK files on its own and even update the malware
  • Copy files from device to PC
  • Gain access to the IMEI number, Wi-Fi MAC address, and cell phone carrier details
In other words, SpyNote gives the attacker complete access to a user's phone...without needing root access!


”Snowman’s “Alto’s Adventure” caused a stir when it launched on Android Thursday. The downhill skiing game is priced at $2.99 on iPhone, but on Google’s platform it’s free with in-game bonuses available for purchase. Why the price difference? The game’s developers say Android apps are pirated so frequently that charging for downloads has become almost pointless.”









Thank you very much Apple, I am more than happy to pay more to avoid this user experience nightmare.
 
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The other way to look at this, is that Apple winning will generally cause the IOS ecosystem to really shine more than it already does. I think walled gardens for IOS is a good thing. And the competition will cause people to leave apple if they are better at doing something than apple is.
Nah, because after a while, you get into a dependency point of no return, or a point without an easy return.

If Apple win this case, Apple, Google & Co. will be legally strengthened in what they believe is right to do.
Think a bit further, few years from now, Apple Ecosystems all over the place, all nicely crafted together, centralized to Apple Servers, wonderfully working and comfortable walled gardens, and you in a great position to pay that all.

And somehow they decide to, or "accidentally" disabled your AppleID, maybe because they disagreed to something you've said or did, this will...

... lock you out of your house
... lock you out of your car
... lock you out of your garage
... lock you out of your bank app and from quick accessing your money
... maybe even lock you out of identifying yourself, few countries are already thinking about "virtual ID and Passports"
... lock you out of healthcare(e.g. from accessing your EGC recordings)
... lock you out from all devices you own (hold a moment - did i really say "own"?)
... lock you out from ANY app you paid for, that build on their APIs
... and much more

and a lockout also means deletion of data in some way...

It's not fully fictive, we are already getting into this dangerous centralized level of corporate control.
I mean they tried to delete Epics Dev Account, and i bet that all devices associated with it would have gotten into an unknown, maybe even unrecoverable state. Just think about it!

Welcome to the new digital age!
 
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Do tell. How is letting us sideload apps or choose another payment system a BAD thing?

I feel it would compromise the viability and vitality of the App Store.

Apple, developers and customers currently exist in a virtuous cycle of sorts. The 30% cut that Apple collects from developers goes towards maintaining the App Store.

Allowing companies to use their own payment system would let them earn more, which in turn means Apple collects less, and that $100 a year doesn’t even begin to cover the costs of operating the App Store. And no, app prices will not decrease as a result of developers collecting more money. They will simply pocket the difference.

Neil Cybart of AboveAvalon estimates that Apple needs to charge around 20-25% for the App Store to break even (remember that the bulk of this revenue comes from a small number of larger, more lucrative companies).

To make up this shortfall, Apple could increase the fee it charges developers. Larger companies like epic have no issues paying a few extra hundred dollars a year, but smaller developers might.

In short, such a move would benefit the companies who don’t really need the help (larger developers already earning millions of dollars a year), while disadvantaging the smaller developers who do (which is why Apple is willing to lower their cut to 15%, because they account for a very small chunk of App Store revenue overall, but contribute to much of its vibrancy).

Second, the inability to side load apps means that piracy on iOS is way less of an issue. Meaning that developers earn more compared to android. As a result, we see developers being more willing to bring their apps to iOS first or exclusively because that’s where the money is.

You can talk about freedom and being able to install apps which would otherwise not be available on the App Store. But most people are just going to use it to avoid paying $1 for an app.

I don’t see this as being of any benefit to me as an average consumer. It’s fitting that the people campaigning for this are developers like Epic and DHH, and we haven’t exactly seen any consumers being called in to provide their side of the story (because I suspect that the majority of them would actually prefer Apple’s walled garden approach).

This lawsuit deserves to fail.
 
To be honest, Apple policy seems a bit harsh. 30% cut is way to high. If it was 10%, nobody would have raised the voice. Of course, Apple should be charging fees for anyone selling through their platform, the same way Amazon or Ebay charge you a small fee for each item you sell through their platforms. 30% does not sound as a fair deal.

really “harsh”. And what about Sony/MS/Nintendo having they’re own 30% cut?. And other similar stores too like the Google play store

or it has to be just Apple. No if it it’s harsh regarding Apple then it’s harsh for everyone else who is in the same boat
 
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It's more than that. It's more evidence they were looking to pick a fight. They need to calm down. It's too bad Apple wasn't allowed to block all Unreal games.

Too bad if all you care about is shilling for one of the worlds richest company's and are happy to see them harm innovation and small business out of sheer pettiness.

Most of the people using Unreal Engine have nothing to do with this suit.
 
I don’t believe this idea that they are doing it for a greater good; to help small developers. Epic are by any normal definition, a very large company. The App Store has helped many small developers to go independent and make a living. In Epic’s world view, they would dominate by having one of the many large app stores and being the gate keeper instead of Apple. I don’t see how that’s is any kind of improvement for small developers.
And the Epic Game Store app for Mac is AWFUL!

The apps in the front of the store aren't even MacOS specific, it's idiotic.

You have to browse and chose the MacOS tag and even that doesn't even list everything that's Mac compatible. When you scroll down to the specs, the Windows specs are shown by default.

Get an intern to dig through the apps and properly tag them. Make a storefront that defaults to the Mac apps. This isn't rocket science folks.
 
Nah, because after a while, you get into a dependency point of no return, or a point without an easy return.

If Apple win this case, Apple, Google & Co. will be legally strengthened in what they believe is right to do.
Think a bit further, few years from now, Apple Ecosystems all over the place, all nicely crafted together, centralized to Apple Servers, wonderfully working and comfortable walled gardens, and you in a great position to pay that all.
This has been Apples' business model for 13 years or so. Whether that business model will be found to be illegal is anybody's guess and if so will (probably) cause a wide-ranging industry shift.
And somehow they decide to, or "accidentally" disabled your AppleID, maybe because they disagreed to something you've said or did, this will...
This is a really good hypothetical situation. What happens if your bank accidentally freezes your funds? A towing company "accidentally" tows your car because you spoke to someone the wrong way? We can craft a hypothetical situation from anything.
... lock you out of your house
... lock you out of your car
... lock you out of your garage
... lock you out of your bank app and from quick accessing your money
... maybe even lock you out of identifying yourself, few countries are already thinking about "virtual ID and Passports"
... lock you out of healthcare(e.g. from accessing your EGC recordings)
... lock you out from all devices you own (hold a moment - did i really say "own"?)
... lock you out from ANY app you paid for, that build on their APIs
... and much more
No, no and no. A disabled apple id does not prevent signin to the iphone, or using your b/t app to get into your house, car, garage, etc. What would prevent you from doing the above, if you damaged your phone beyond it's ability to operate. One is basically screwed.
and a lockout also means deletion of data in some way...

It's not fully fictive, we are already getting into this dangerous centralized level of corporate control.
I mean they tried to delete Epics Dev Account, and i bet that all devices associated with it would have gotten into an unknown, maybe even unrecoverable state. Just think about it!

Welcome to the new digital age!
The reason Apple tried to delete Epics account is because Epic agreed to that, when it signed up for the dev program. It just so happens, Epic had two dev accounts and the court found only one of them could be deleted.

If you personally try to defraud your bank, trade on insider information, etc, and get caught, you can end up in jail. Epic tried to defraud Apple and they are suing to break up Apple.

The outcome is anybody's guess.
 
It's not that I have to install these other app stores, but if developers of apps I use jump from Apple to another store, it means I've lost my lifetime access to that app that I paid for. And even if I want to buy the next version, now I need the other store. All of a sudden I'm going to have a dozen different app stores on my iPhone or I'm going to lose the functionality I already have.
 
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Ahh, the slippery slope argument. Why hasn’t this dystopian future happened already? The reason being is there are choices and the user is free to go anywhere. What you want is already available on Android and you are free to go there….sideload all you want.

Only Epic has already tried that by initially being distributed by side loading only. This created a problem where the number of users didn’t increase like projected and the security risks went up exponentially (Google’s own research shows that apps distributed outside of the Play store carry a 9x risk of malware). Epic then had to relent and release on the Google Play Store.


“It didn't take long for a problem to crop up. Just two days after Fortnite became available on Android, a Google engineer discovered a vulnerability that could let a hacker replace the app with a fake version of the game -- known in cybersecurity circles as a man-in-the-disk attack because it uses openings with external storage like your SD card to install malware.”


Fortnite only became broadly available on Android this week. But on August 3, the day of Sweeney’s announcement, WIRED quickly discovered seven sites advertising themselves as Android Fortnite downloads. Analysis from mobile security company Lookout found that each of those sites distributed malware to anyone who fell for the scam.”


”Epic Games’ decision to publish the Android version of Fortnite outside of the Play Store is a very poor choice for the security of their players. Android devices are already far more susceptible to malware than Apple devices…..

Fortnite trojans reflect a malware trend that Comodo research has observed lately, specifically pertaining to Android. Read more about the rise of Android trojans of all kinds in the latest Comodo Global Threat Report for Q2 2018”



The researchers at Unit 42 found an Android Remote Access Tool (RAT) called SpyNote. This piece of malware has a number of vicious backdoor features, which include the ability to:

  • View all messages
  • Listen in on phone calls
  • Activate a device's camera or mic remotely
  • Track the device via GPS
  • Install APK files on its own and even update the malware
  • Copy files from device to PC
  • Gain access to the IMEI number, Wi-Fi MAC address, and cell phone carrier details
In other words, SpyNote gives the attacker complete access to a user's phone...without needing root access!


”Snowman’s “Alto’s Adventure” caused a stir when it launched on Android Thursday. The downhill skiing game is priced at $2.99 on iPhone, but on Google’s platform it’s free with in-game bonuses available for purchase. Why the price difference? The game’s developers say Android apps are pirated so frequently that charging for downloads has become almost pointless.”









Thank you very much Apple, I am more than happy to pay more to avoid this user experience nightmare.


Yeah that would be all well an good if there hadn't been 17 instances of malware from one single dev discovered on the App Store or bugs in iMessage that allow someone to break into someone iPhone using a text message.

The idea that iOS is some super secure platform is a myth. Sorry.
 
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Too bad if all you care about is shilling for one of the worlds richest company's and are happy to see them harm innovation and small business out of sheer pettiness.

Most of the people using Unreal Engine have nothing to do with this suit.
Sure let's break them apart and harm innovation also. No I don't buy the above.
 
Yeah that would be all well an good if there hadn't been 17 instances of malware from one single dev discovered on the App Store or bugs in iMessage that allow someone to break into someone iPhone using a text message.

The idea that iOS is some super secure platform is a myth. Sorry.
The myth that there are no bugs in any software, is well a myth. As far as malware in the apps, sure it happens. Bugs in imessage yep. If microsoft cant get it right after 30+ years of Windows, Apple, IBM, etc. don't have a chance. Bugs exist, malware exists. "super secure"? prety much so. 1 bug does not render the o/s as fragile as a paper door.
 
It's more than that. It's more evidence they were looking to pick a fight. They need to calm down. It's too bad Apple wasn't allowed to block all Unreal games.
If you block all Unreal games, you punish a lot of video game developers who aren't associated with Epic. Not a good choice when it's only Epic picking a fight here.
 
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This is a really good hypothetical situation. What happens if your bank accidentally freezes your funds? A towing company "accidentally" tows your car because you spoke to someone the wrong way? We can craft a hypothetical situation from anything.
The main thing here is, its all distributed and not tied to a centralized service in possession of one corporation.

No, no and no. A disabled apple id does not prevent signin to the iphone, or using your b/t app to get into your house, car, garage, etc. What would prevent you from doing the above, if you damaged your phone beyond it's ability to operate. One is basically screwed.
Really? Did you ever try to reset and/or re-activate an iDevice which is still somehow tied to a suspended AppleID?
I bet this won't work!
iDevice msg: This iDevice is linked to AppleID: e**c @ icloud.com please enter blah blah password to activate -> error account is does not exist, this would probably be the resulting scenario. And the problem probably starts with FindMyiPhone.

Suspended AppleIDs does not have access to Apple Internet Services, and Apple Internet Services are tied to their *cough - your* Devices and *cough - your* Apps, more or less depending of their implementation. Believe it or not, it's simple like that, they can snap you off whenever they want, just like Thanos. In addition to this comes unknown errors and crashes because *cough - your* App will try to access resources which does not exist anymore.

The reason Apple tried to delete Epics account is because Epic agreed to that, when it signed up for the dev program. It just so happens, Epic had two dev accounts and the court found only one of them could be deleted.
Ohh this reminds me of South Park, you agreed, too.

"You agree that Apple may, in its sole discretion and without prior notice, terminate your access to the Site and/or block your future access to the Site if we determine that you have violated these Terms of Use or other agreements or guidelines which may be associated with your use of the Site."

In simpler words, you own nothing. Your iDevices requires Apples "Internet services", their Servers and Services for Device activations, and they can terminate your access anytime.
 
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Sure let's break them apart and harm innovation also. No I don't buy the above.

They don't need breaking apart necessarily they just need slapping for their current rent seeking and handicapping of services that compete with their own.

The myth that there are no bugs in any software, is well a myth. As far as malware in the apps, sure it happens. Bugs in imessage yep. If microsoft cant get it right after 30+ years of Windows, Apple, IBM, etc. don't have a chance. Bugs exist, malware exists. "super secure"? prety much so. 1 bug does not render the o/s as fragile as a paper door.

Great, so you agree that the idea that Apple shouldn't allow software from third party sources on security grounds is erroneous then.
 
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If you block all Unreal games, you punish a lot of video game developers who aren't associated with Epic. Not a good choice when it's only Epic picking a fight here.

Apple threat to ban Unreal Engine was a disgrace and correctly blocked. They talk about enabling developers and then threaten to do something like that.

A perfect example of the potential harm they do to innovation from smaller companies.
 
LoL pretty sure the only people affected by this are the actual children that play the game
Currently working in retail, I've sold a few Fortnite gift cards and Nerf guns with Fortnite designs, but the rapid pace has slowed a lot.

In the last week, I've mentioned something like "only little kids play the game" and the adults buying those particular gift cards were apparently those who were playing. 😆

There seems to be a similar, new game every month.
 
Too bad if all you care about is shilling for one of the worlds richest company's and are happy to see them harm innovation and small business out of sheer pettiness.

Most of the people using Unreal Engine have nothing to do with this suit.

If you block all Unreal games, you punish a lot of video game developers who aren't associated with Epic. Not a good choice when it's only Epic picking a fight here.
Except no one using the Unreal Engine is unrelated to Epic. As soon as they agreed to the terms to use their code they tied their franchises and companies content to Epic. They are ultimately the product that Epic is trying to extract wealth from. You can't use Unreal and not be associated with Epic any more than you can make iOS apps and not be associated with Apple.
 
Except no one using the Unreal Engine is unrelated to Epic. As soon as they agreed to the terms to use their code they tied their franchises and companies content to Epic. They are ultimately the product that Epic is trying to extract wealth from. You can't use Unreal and not be associated with Epic any more than you can make iOS apps and not be associated with Apple.

So it's ok for one of the worlds richest companies to punish game devs because the company that develops the engine they use is suing them.

If organsised criminals use iPhones to conduct their business should Apple be an accessory to their crimes because they used Apples platform. Should Apple have been prosecusted for the San Bernadino shooting?
 
So it's ok for one of the worlds richest companies to punish game devs because the company that develops the engine they use is suing them.

If organsised criminals use iPhones to conduct their business should Apple be an accessory to their crimes because theu used Apples platform. Should Apple have been prosecusted for the San Bernadino shooting?
Apple isn't punishing game developers. Epic is doing that by pursuing an action that puts developer apps at risk. The games these developers are making is where Epic's profit comes from. You can't claim you are not associated with someone and also generate revenue from them.

And how much money a corporation earns has no bearing on their obligations to treat other companies in any particular fashion. So go ahead and toss the term 'worlds richest companies' away because it's not relevant.
 
The main thing here is, its all distributed and not tied to a centralized service in possession of one corporation.
Like google services? What happens if your business depends on gmail and google suspends your id?
Really? Did you ever try to reset and/or re-activate an iDevice which is still somehow tied to a suspended AppleID?
I bet this won't work!
That's not the situation you said and that's "moving the goalposts".
iDevice msg: This iDevice is linked to AppleID: e**c @ icloud.com please enter blah blah password to activate -> error account is does not exist, this would probably be the resulting scenario. And the problem probably starts with FindMyiPhone.

Suspended AppleIDs does not have access to Apple Internet Services, and Apple Internet Services are tied to their *cough - your* Devices and *cough - your* Apps, more or less depending of their implementation. Believe it or not, it's simple like that, they can snap you off whenever they want, just like Thanos. In addition to this comes unknown errors and crashes because *cough - your* App will try to access resources which does not exist anymore.
You do not need an apple id to activate an iphone, so I'm not sure what your overall issue is. You will be able to make phone calls. But as I said above, google, twitter, etc has the same issue.
Ohh this reminds me of South Park, you agreed, too.

"You agree that Apple may, in its sole discretion and without prior notice, terminate your access to the Site and/or block your future access to the Site if we determine that you have violated these Terms of Use or other agreements or guidelines which may be associated with your use of the Site."

In simpler words, you own nothing. Your iDevices requires Apples "Internet services", their Servers and Services for Device activations, and they can terminate your access anytime.
How many times in the real world has this happened to people who were using the services lawfully? Not through some trying to guess the password situation. This is the internet taking a use case which has a low probability of occurring and making it into hyperbole.
 
Apple isn't punishing game developers. Epic is doing that by pursuing an action that puts developer apps at risk. The games these developers are making is where Epic's profit comes from. You can't claim you are not associated with someone and also generate revenue from them.

I disagree and thankfully so did the judge.

Again, the threat to ban unreal was absolutely reprehensible, exactly the kind of behavior that has got them so much antitrust scrutiny.
 
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