Epic Games Throwing a 'FreeFortnite Cup' Bash Before iOS Users Lose Access

[cardfan]

Looks like those services revenues will come crashing down soon for apple when the 30% extortion fees end.

 

[Nogi Memes]

Bye-bye.

 

[supermacman1938]

Do people NOT realize when they say this, they are ignoring Apple’s whole part? It’s the company that refuses to back down from their monopolistic 30% cut. They’re taking it from every single developer on the App Store. I don’t understand, why are you pointing fingers at Epic but can’t realize who is really at fault here?

how much should Apple take?

It’s funny to me people can’t understand Apple’s side. They are a business... Apple funds the R&D, designs the hardware, OS, App Store, runs the servers for the apps, markets the apps and some how are expected to do it for what? free, 1% 5% 10% 20%.

In you educated estimation what would it cost Apple to do this?

If you ran Apple what would you take and why?

Who decides how much they take? A random dude on the internet? The government? Why is it anybody’s but Apples decision? They own the store.

They are a company that needs to make money to pay for staff, R&D, parts, marketing and what ever else is needed to run a highly successful tech company. Oh and make a profit too.

No one is forcing Epic to use the App Store. There are many other platforms they can use. It just happens to be the best out there. Because Apple put a lot of work and money into making it what it is. A place where developers and people can distribute and buy apps very easily.

Also, No one, including Apple, is stopping Epic from marking their own hardware and OS and allowing themselves and others to use it for free.

 

[supermacman1938]

Looks like those services revenues will come crashing down soon for apple when the 30% extortion fees end.

just don’t pay the 30%. No one forcing them to use the App Store
[automerge]1597985506[/automerge]

I’m an Apple fanboy myself, but damn, at least I can point out where they’re wrong. Many people here need to learn how to do that, honestly.

Welcome to the world of business

 

[riverfreak]

This isn’t just about the App Store.

Apple has built a community of users that stick with the system because of purported privacy and security benefits. These range from the OS, to cloud services, to the App Store and it’s vetting of apps, to hardware and it’s associated R&D expenses, to operational things like how they handle PII.

Developers who want to distribute apps on the App Store get access to that entire environment that Apple has deliberately built and it’s built in customer base they’ve cultivated for decades. If billion dollar gaming developers don’t like the terms, they are free to distribute on the Play store or as a desktop application.

I haven’t seen any cogent arguments why 30% is too large of a cut. The costs of doing business are often quite high.

 

[morphineseason]

I just checked Twitch and it’s the #3 most streamed game.

Thing is, Epic and Amazon, as well as Netflix and Spotify, can’t just tell people “Hey, go to the website to buy or subscribe.” It’s against the rules. They just have to hope that people figure it out.

Oh no! They did something good for us as consumers, and allowed people to play with other platforms, removing the network effect! How sad! Epic is terrible!

1. Most streamed doesn't mean most watched. Like I said, most the big streamers don't play it anymore. In terms of views, it's currently sitting at around 7th place, behind Doom Eternal, and League of Legends

2. And yet Twitch does specifically call this out on their website in a Bits FAQ, stating, " You always have the option to buy Bits at desktop prices on your mobile device by going to bits.twitch.tv in your mobile web browser." Anyone who's been using the site for years knows this. It also doesn't stop Amazon from still being the top platform for eBooks.

3. Agreed, the cross-play argument did inevitably have a positive effect, but that doesn't make the way they went about it right. They backed Sony into a corner with a bunch of PR, social media shade, etc. They could have had the same discussions, professionally, behind closed doors, but they made it very public for all the kids on the playground to see.

I hope someone bullies them the same way over all the "exclusivity deals" they make with publishers to lock them in on their Epic Games Store platform on PC - another tactic they used to try to be anti-competitive with Valve's Steam platform. But hey, that's not monopolistic behavior at all, is it? Epic is the underdog, Apple evil, etc.

 

[lolrepeatlol]

how much should Apple take?

It’s funny to me people can’t understand Apple’s side. They are a business... Apple funds the R&D, designs the hardware, OS, App Store, runs the servers for the apps, markets the apps and some how are expected to do it for what? free, 1% 5% 10% 20%.

In you educated estimation what would it cost Apple to do this?

If you ran Apple what would you take and why?

Who decides how much they take? A random dude on the internet? The government? Why is it anybody’s but Apples decision? They own the store.

They are a company that needs to make money to pay for staff, R&D, parts, marketing and what ever else is needed to run a highly successful tech company. Oh and make a profit too.

No one is forcing Epic to use the App Store. There are many other platforms they can use. It just happens to be the best out there. Because Apple put a lot of work and money into making it what it is. A place where developers and people can distribute and buy apps very easily.

Also, No one, including Apple, is stopping Epic from marking their own hardware and OS and allowing themselves and others to use it for free.

How about they just allow other stores? It’s literally that simple. Competition will bring down the crazy 30% fee of the App Store eventually.

Here, this is what you would sound like if Walmart had a monopoly on the United States market and the government prohibited any other store.

“The United States Government puts so much work into Walmart. If you don’t want to deal with the (hypothetically) terrible rules that Walmart has to allow you into their store, then don’t sell in the United States! There are so many other countries where you could sell your products. Quit whining.”

Edit: Also, yes, actually. There is plenty stopping Epic. For one, app support. ****ing MICROSOFT tried to make an OS, and it didn't work, mostly because app support was just not there.

 

[mariusignorello]

because apple fans. lmao.

Got news for ya, if I ran a store I'd be taking commission off your sales too. Anyone would.

how much should Apple take?

It’s funny to me people can’t understand Apple’s side. They are a business... Apple funds the R&D, designs the hardware, OS, App Store, runs the servers for the apps, markets the apps and some how are expected to do it for what? free, 1% 5% 10% 20%.

In you educated estimation what would it cost Apple to do this?

If you ran Apple what would you take and why?

Who decides how much they take? A random dude on the internet? The government? Why is it anybody’s but Apples decision? They own the store.

They are a company that needs to make money to pay for staff, R&D, parts, marketing and what ever else is needed to run a highly successful tech company. Oh and make a profit too.

No one is forcing Epic to use the App Store. There are many other platforms they can use. It just happens to be the best out there. Because Apple put a lot of work and money into making it what it is. A place where developers and people can distribute and buy apps very easily.

Also, No one, including Apple, is stopping Epic from marking their own hardware and OS and allowing themselves and others to use it for free.

Apple shouldn't take any commission because they're big and greedy and mean. They should give it away for free out of guilt for daring to *gasp* turn a profit! /s

I swear, feelings have taken full control over some people's decision making. Be it this case, politics, or just life in general. Rational thought seems to be dead.

It's nobody's business to decide what Apple does besides Apple and its shareholders. If devs and customers want to walk away, they can do so. But guess what? Very few do because of the value proposition of Apple, iPhone, iOS and the App Store.

At some point, Epic, along with any other revenue-seeking developer, saw the value in Apple and its platforms. After all, it helped them turn over $1B in profit. Now all of the sudden they try to corner Apple to get them to change a policy that really didn't seem to hurt them (is $1B in profit somehow mediocre?).

It's really hard to feel sorry for Epic. They deliberately violated Apple's policies, had a lawsuit and video ready to go on their desk knowing very well Apple would pull their app, organized a rebellion against Apple and now they're giving away competitor products to further spite Apple.

Like I've said before, Apple should just go ahead and revoke all their developer entitlements now. They have no intention of remedying the issue and I don't think Apple cares at this point. There will be many other successful developers that will pay their dues and not say "thanks Apple but screw you".

 

[riverfreak]

How about they just allow other stores? It’s literally that simple. Competition will bring down the crazy 30% fee of the App Store eventually.

Here, this is what you would sound like if Walmart had a monopoly on the United States market and the government prohibited any other store.

“The United States Government puts so much work into Walmart. If you don’t want to deal with the (hypothetically) terrible rules that Walmart has to allow you into their store, then don’t sell in the United States! There are so many other countries where you could sell your products. Quit whining.”

FWIW, Walmart is a terrible example to use to support an anti-monopoly argument.

 

[lolrepeatlol]

FWIW, Walmart is a terrible example to use to support an anti-monopoly argument.

It was just the first store that I thought of. Could be anything.

 

[lolrepeatlol]

1. Most streamed doesn't mean most watched. Like I said, most the big streamers don't play it anymore. In terms of views, it's currently sitting at around 7th place, behind Doom Eternal, and League of Legends

2. And yet Twitch does specifically call this out on their website in a Bits FAQ, stating, " You always have the option to buy Bits at desktop prices on your mobile device by going to bits.twitch.tv in your mobile web browser." Anyone who's been using the site for years knows this. It also doesn't stop Amazon from still being the top platform for eBooks.

3. Agreed, the cross-play argument did inevitably have a positive effect, but that doesn't make the way they went about it right. They backed Sony into a corner with a bunch of PR, social media shade, etc. They could have had the same discussions, professionally, behind closed doors, but they made it very public for all the kids on the playground to see.

I hope someone bullies them the same way over all the "exclusivity deals" they make with publishers to lock them in on their Epic Games Store platform on PC - another tactic they used to try to be anti-competitive with Valve's Steam platform. But hey, that's not monopolistic behavior at all, is it? Epic is the underdog, Apple evil, etc.

My bad. I actually did mean most watched but Twitch showed me "recommended" and not top, even though I never watched Twitch on this computer before. My point still stands though. At 7th place it's not "nothing."

And sure, Amazon put it in their FAQ, but they can't let people know how to get it in the app. They have to hope people look it up.

 

[kesennnnn]

Gurl, Epic literally grasping at all the straws.

 

[FaustsHausUK]

One bad apple, and plenty of sour grapes!

 

[morphineseason]

How about they just allow other stores? It’s literally that simple. Competition will bring down the crazy 30% fee of the App Store eventually.

Here, this is what you would sound like if Walmart had a monopoly on the United States market and the government prohibited any other store.

“The United States Government puts so much work into Walmart. If you don’t want to deal with the (hypothetically) terrible rules that Walmart has to allow you into their store, then don’t sell in the United States! There are so many other countries where you could sell your products. Quit whining.”

It's capitalism. Apple made a product with a focus on ease-of-use and privacy, and a lot of people like that. If 30% cut is the value they put on that, and not allowing other stores on their platform let's them keep their two biggest selling points, so be it. They're allowed to charge what they want for that product and the services that go along with it. They not only have the upkeep costs of the App Store, but they also need to pay people to manually review and approve apps.

If Epic doesn't like it, they're free to just be Android exclusive and get $0 from iOS users, or go spend the R&D money on their own phone, OS, and mobile app store if they want - and they certainly have the money to do that. If it's a truly great product, everyone will jump ship and go to them. This idea that companies should just make free money off of another company's success is not how capitalism works.

 

[noraa]

How about they just allow other stores? It’s literally that simple. Competition will bring down the crazy 30% fee of the App Store eventually.

Here, this is what you would sound like if Walmart had a monopoly on the United States market and the government prohibited any other store.

“The United States Government puts so much work into Walmart. If you don’t want to deal with the (hypothetically) terrible rules that Walmart has to allow you into their store, then don’t sell in the United States! There are so many other countries where you could sell your products. Quit whining.”

Edit: Also, yes, actually. There is plenty stopping Epic. For one, app support. ****ing MICROSOFT tried to make an OS, and it didn't work, mostly because app support was just not there.

You're conveniently ignoring the fact that there ARE other stores. You can get an Android phone and side load, or a Samsung phone and use Samsung's App Store, or get it on a computer via the Epic Game Store. Just because Apple doesn't allow third party stores on their devices, doesn't make it a monopoly. No one is forcing you to purchase an iOS device, and in fact, iOS still has a much smaller marketshare than Android.

Try this analogy. I shop at Costco for a lot of things, there are certain items at Costco that I cannot get at any other store. However, in order for me to shop at Costco I have to have a membership. Does Costco requiring me to have a membership to buy their items make them a monopoly? Absolutely not. If I don't want to pay the Costco membership, I can simply go elsewhere. Costco's membership fees are based on a lot of market variables, and are deemed reasonable but enough people that Costco continues to charge the same fee year after year. If people don't like paying the Costco membership fee, should Costco somehow allow a third party operator to operate in their ecosystem and charge less, or even nothing? Again, absolutely not - that simply doesn't make any sense. Now, let's say a Costco-like store opens up, and charges a membership that is half that of Costco. If enough people stop paying Costco's fee and go the other store with the lesser fee, in time you would see Costco lowering it's membership fee.

In other words, Apple has no incentive to lower it's 30% fee, because that is the same amount that EVERY OTHER store charges. If Google, or Playstation, or Microsoft, etc. lower their fee from 30% to say 20%, I guarantee you Apple would follow suit.

You can absolutely argue that 30% is an outrageous fee, but Apple charging it does not make them a monopoly, nor does Apple not allowing 3rd party stores make them a monopoly. If Apple where the only phone manufacturer out there, you'd have a point, but as it stands, you simply don't.

 

[Stuey3D]

How about they just allow other stores? It’s literally that simple. Competition will bring down the crazy 30% fee of the App Store eventually.

Here, this is what you would sound like if Walmart had a monopoly on the United States market and the government prohibited any other store.

“The United States Government puts so much work into Walmart. If you don’t want to deal with the (hypothetically) terrible rules that Walmart has to allow you into their store, then don’t sell in the United States! There are so many other countries where you could sell your products. Quit whining.”

Edit: Also, yes, actually. There is plenty stopping Epic. For one, app support. ****ing MICROSOFT tried to make an OS, and it didn't work, mostly because app support was just not there.

If they allow other stores then the main reason to own an iPhone over an Android goes out the window. People choose iPhones because of the locked down nature of the OS and the safety of a fully vetted App Store, and the simplicity of every app you want being in one place with one payment method. It’s this reason why my mother in law in her late 60’s has an iPhone and iPad, and why my daughter has an iPhone and iPad because with screen time and family restrictions I can manage her device remotely and no surprise credit card charges from her spamming in app purchases (the child that is not the mother in law).

Also if you recall they tried to push their Epic Store on Android by refusing to list on the Play Store and by forcing users to disable the main security feature of their phones to install it, and whilst they got a few players this way they finally had to admit defeat and list it on the Play Store in the end anyway as most users weren’t happy to disable security to get an app.

 

[Realityck]

Epic Battles Apple: I Missed a Spot - Lexology 8/20/20

Game Developer Breanna Wu was quoted in the Washington Post saying “that Apple seems to be pushing iOS developers to use Xcode, Apple’s own integrated software development program. ‘Apple’s 3D tools are better than they were a decade ago, but it’s not anywhere near the league of Unreal Engine.’”

Many developers will be caught between Epic, who supplies their gaming engine, and Apple, who controls one of the most significant gaming platforms. Apple has said that this problem can all go away if Epic just steps back in line and continues to pay 30% of its revenue to Apple on all in-game purchases. Both companies will lose significant money if Epic game Fortnite remains off of Apple mobile platforms and if properties built using Unreal Engine also fall off of those same platforms from lack of support.

So is this a fight over the right to serve apps to the over a billion devices that are forced to use the Apple app store or over the ability to sell software developers the code that underlies their creations? Maybe it is both.

From a lawyer’s standpoint, the anti-trust issues are fascinating. It seems like Apple is leveraging its dominance in one part of the market – access to mobile smartphones and iPads – to gain an advantage in an entirely different market – gaming engines for app development. Under U.S. and EU law, companies are not supposed to be able to leverage dominance in a market to force competitors out of a different market. AT&T was broken up for similar behavior and Google has paid billions of Euros in fines for the same. And yet the gaming console makers Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo act in almost exactly the same manner in regard to their closed software systems, and no one has thought to push them to open further.

 

[WiseAJ]

All they have to do is stop breaking the terms and conditions and they can push new updates. Easy fix. Epic is the one abandoning the iOS players here with their petty childish theatrics.

 

[lolrepeatlol]

If they allow other stores then the main reason to own an iPhone over an Android goes out the window. People choose iPhones because of the locked down nature of the OS and the safety of a fully vetted App Store, and the simplicity of every app you want being in one place with one payment method. It’s this reason why my mother in law in her late 60’s has an iPhone and iPad, and why my daughter has an iPhone and iPad because with screen time and family restrictions I can manage her device remotely and no surprise credit card charges from her spamming in app purchases.

I highly doubt that. Got any stats??? I mean I don't have any source on this but Macs have basically the same selling points as iPhones do - simple, easy to use, and just work. And they still sell really well without the App Store getting in the way all the time.

Also if you recall they tried to push their Epic Store on Android by refusing to list on the Play Store and by forcing users to disable the main security feature of their phones to install it, and whilst they got a few players this way they finally had to admit defeat and list it on the Play Store in the end anyway as most users weren’t happy to disable security to get an app.

It's because of the heavy disadvantage Google put Epic and other storemakers in. There are limitations in Android that favor the Play Store over other stores. And Epic even tried to preinstall the Epic Games Store on LG and OnePlus phones but Google stopped them. You can read their lawsuit, it's rather interesting.

You're conveniently ignoring the fact that there ARE other stores. You can get an Android phone and side load, or a Samsung phone and use Samsung's App Store, or get it on a computer via the Epic Game Store. Just because Apple doesn't allow third party stores on their devices, doesn't make it a monopoly. No one is forcing you to purchase an iOS device, and in fact, iOS still has a much smaller marketshare than Android.

I'm not. Did you not understand my hypothetical analogy? I really don't want to be rude, but please re-read it.

 

[Saipher]

You mean the same 30% cut that Microsoft’s Xbox, Sony’s PlayStation, and Google’s Play Store take?

While this is true, it’s not the same thing. Epic’s point is that at today’s standards, smartphones are almost a common commodity, like a computer, and therefore it should be treated like one. Smartphones are nothing more than portable computers and one should be able to choose to either purchase their apps in the App Store or directly from the publisher’s website. Consoles on the other hand are considered “luxury goods” and don’t perform the same tasks as computers (for the most part) therefore the expectations are different.

Here is a quote from Epic:
“There's a rationale for [the 30-percent fee] on console where there's enormous investment in hardware, often sold below cost, and marketing campaigns in broad partnership with publishers. But on open platforms, 30 percent is disproportionate to the cost of the services these stores perform, such as payment processing, download bandwidth, and customer service.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/arstec...-ignores-the-same-problems-on-consoles/?amp=1

 

[dguisinger]

If they allow other stores then the main reason to own an iPhone over an Android goes out the window. People choose iPhones because of the locked down nature of the OS and the safety of a fully vetted App Store, and the simplicity of every app you want being in one place with one payment method. It’s this reason why my mother in law in her late 60’s has an iPhone and iPad, and why my daughter has an iPhone and iPad because with screen time and family restrictions I can manage her device remotely and no surprise credit card charges from her spamming in app purchases (the child that is not the mother in law).

Also if you recall they tried to push their Epic Store on Android by refusing to list on the Play Store and by forcing users to disable the main security feature of their phones to install it, and whilst they got a few players this way they finally had to admit defeat and list it on the Play Store in the end anyway as most users weren’t happy to disable security to get an app.

I don't buy it for the locked down nature, it just unfortunately comes with it. But hey, to each their own. At some point people have to admit some around here have Stockholm syndrome. You are falling in love with your kidnapper, taking their point of view. You parrot PR talking points carefully chosen by a $2 Trillion dollar company who wants you to think they've got your best interests in mind so you keep coming back. If Apple gives you the ability to have options doesn't mean you were forced to download and sideload applications or other stores. Stick to the AppStore if you want, we want options.

 

[Darth Tulhu]

This move is Epic just asking for others to join their revolt, which just isn't going to happen.

The Jerry McGuire memes got it right, except there won't be a happy ending for Epic.

A video game company is not going to topple a hardware, software, and services juggernaut.

Fair or not, this just isn't going to work.

 

[Realityck]

All they have to do is stop breaking the terms and conditions and they can push new updates. Easy fix. Epic is the one abandoning the iOS players here with their petty childish theatrics.

Everybody keep looking at this as centered around Fortnite, well the article I just quoted a few post's earlier and this one from 8/16 point out something that most seem to be ignoring.

Epic Games appears to out Apple VR development in Fortnite dispute - Appleinsider

As a result of having its developer accounts terminated, Apple said that Epic Games would lose access to "adoption and support of ARKit features and future VR features into Unreal Engine by their XR team," among other capabilities.

Apple's ARKit is a development framework developers can use to create augmented reality apps for iPhones. But Apple doesn't currently have any sort of public-facing VR products or features.

There are signs that Apple is developing some type of VR system, however. A recently published patent application suggests that Apple is working on a VR headset that wouldn't be transparent like "Apple Glass." In May, the company acquired VR video streaming startup NextVR.

Maybe this is all about EPIC now see's Apple trying to muscle their way into direct competition with their UnReal Engine business?

 

[Stuey3D]

I highly doubt that. Got any stats??? I mean I don't have any source on this but Macs have basically the same selling points as iPhones do - simple, easy to use, and just work. And they still sell really well without the App Store getting in the way all the time.

It's because of the heavy disadvantage Google put Epic and other storemakers in. There are limitations in Android that favor the Play Store over other stores. And Epic even tried to preinstall the Epic Games Store on LG and OnePlus phones but Google stopped them. You can read their lawsuit, it's rather interesting.

I'm not. Did you not understand my hypothetical analogy? I really don't want to be rude, but please re-read it.

The difference is the Mac was an open platform from the word go, iOS has always been locked down. Hell for the first 2 iOS releases you couldn’t even download apps.

If people wanted other app stores and a confusing eco system they would choose an Android phone, given how popular iPhones are and that people are willing to allow Apple to dictate what apps they can and cant use (xcloud etc) would suggest that people don’t want other app stores and are happy for Apple to run the whole show like they do now. Let’s face it in terms of raw hardware there are plenty of Android phones that wipe the floor with the iPhone, however the simplicity of iOS, the security, and the ecosystem is what keeps people buying iPhones.

Also Samsung preloads all their own apps and App Store onto their phones even though they double up on what the Google Apps that come with Android already do (that’s part of the reason I hate using my Samsung work phone) so yes Google might not like other app stores on their platform but they certainly allow them.

 

[Lumineux]

While this is true, it’s not the same thing. Epic’s point is that at today’s standards, smartphones are almost a common commodity, like a computer, and therefore it should be treated like one. Smartphones are nothing more than portable computers and one should be able to choose to either purchase their apps in the App Store or directly from the publisher’s website. Consoles on the other hand are considered “luxury goods” and don’t perform the same tasks as computers (for the most part) therefore the expectations are different.

Here is a quote from Epic:
“There's a rationale for [the 30-percent fee] on console where there's enormous investment in hardware, often sold below cost, and marketing campaigns in broad partnership with publishers. But on open platforms, 30 percent is disproportionate to the cost of the services these stores perform, such as payment processing, download bandwidth, and customer service.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/08/as-epic-attacks-apple-and-google-it-ignores-the-same-problems-on-consoles/?amp=1

1. Most iOS devices cost more than a console, which seems to make them ‘luxury goods’.
2. iOS is a closed platform.