Epic Games vs. Apple: Timeline of Events Surrounding Fortnite's Removal From App Store

[Kabeyun]

You would like them to be able to do that but you realize that they can't, right?

That’ll be up to the courts, because it’s exactly what Apple just did.

 

[involuntarheely]

Sweeney is hypocrite. For years he's railed against app stores arguing for the ability for developers to sell their apps on any platform through any store they choose... and yet once he opened his own store, he was quite content to strike deals with publishers for exclusive releases and bypass the developer completely. Remember Metro Exodus?

He obviously has no issues with different rules or fees for different developers either - less of a cut if you're using his engine... which he also profits from in licensing fees. Not exactly a level playing field.

If he's so committed to the cause, why doesn't he do the same on consoles or is that where the vast majority of his sales come from? Let's not forget Epic's ownership. Sony owns a piece. Do they have any 3rd party stores on their platform? No.

It's always about money, not consumers or developers.

There's nothing stopping the sale of v-bucks or other digital purchases on a website and having those applied to a users account, or applying discounts/bonuses by payment method. platform stores get no cut of these sales. Plenty of other developers / publishers do this already. The only issue is publicizing that purchases can be made on their website. They're barred from doing this in-app but I'm pretty sure Epic has the reach to advertise in other venues and get the word out... but this brings us back to 'it's always about the money'.

Even when given a cheaper alternative outside of an app, most people choose to use in-app purchasing. This is the crux of the problem. Sweeney can't change behaviour so he'd rather try and fragment the market into individual silos with different rules, fees, exclusivities, privacy policies and a general anti-consumer slant. Do you love maintaining your Steam, Origin, GOG, Epic, Uplay, Battle.net, etc. accounts and launchers?

We're not even going to go down the 40% ownership by Tencent route, using an Epic store as an end-run around a WeChat ban.

I think what's sad is that developers that would most benefit from opening up the App store and Play store policies also do not have the deep pockets that are necessary today to fight huge companies such as Apple in court.

but some of Epic's argument seem to be similar and I think ultimately it's good that *someone* is bringing this up finally!

 

[dguisinger]

I think the point is more subtle, i.e. after an app gets approved to be on the App store (which already implies the developer has paid fees associated to being an Apple Developer), should it be possible for the app to use a payment system that isn't necessarily going through Apple itself?

it can be argued that the app itself is approved by Apple and therefore can be considered safe. after that, what's unsafe in, say, using PAYPAL to give Epic Games money associated to in-game purchases?

literally the ONLY reason Apple wants developers to only use Apple as a payment system is that they can get the 30% cut. and as others have said, Apple doesn't look like they're applying the same policy for all developers (see Amazon, Uber, food services, and so on).
or, does Apple take a 30% cut on, say, instacart "service fees"? those are not associated to the delivery of food (which is itemized separately in the receipts), but only to the provisioning of digital services from instacart itself. same for uber eats, door dash, and amazon sales of digital items. -- I'm asking because I have no idea.

on the other hand, wasn't there a similar issue with a paid email service recently? I thought developers could have people register & pay from a computer and then later on login to the "free" app on the phone. why isn't Epic doing the same? my guess is that there's less immediacy.

With that email app, Apple wouldn't allow them to have an App that required login and didn't have functionality without it (strange, I can't watch Netflix movies without having my paid account to login with), so they worked it out by including a free demo account with each download *facepalm*

Further more, part of the lawsuit is Apple doesn't even let you mention its possible to go outside to a web browser and subscribe or purchase things. That means Apps like Netflix prompt you for a log in, but you have no idea how to actually sign up.

Can you imagine walking into walmart and buying software off the shelf, and not being allowed to have a relationship with the vendor down the line without cutting Walmart in for 30%?

 

[involuntarheely]

You realize that's exactly what millions of peoples are doing on a Mac, right?

well, for now at least. I wouldn't be surprised if macos in the future became more and more like iOS and the move to ARM does seem to allow this to happen much more easily.

 

[cocky jeremy]

The 30% cut is way too much and Apple abuses it's position. Governments will bring that system down, don't you worry Tim Apple.

Who are you to tell Apple what is too much? Developers agree to it. Otherwise, make your stuff for another platform.

 

[az431]

The 30% cut is way too much and Apple abuses it's position. Governments will bring that system down, don't you worry Tim Apple.

The Dr Pepper that McDonald's sells you has a 90% profit margin. Are you going to regulate that too?

 

[involuntarheely]

With that email app, Apple wouldn't allow them to have an App that required login and didn't have functionality without it (strange, I can't watch Netflix movies without having my paid account to login with), so they worked it out by including a free demo account with each download *facepalm*

Further more, part of the lawsuit is Apple doesn't even let you mention its possible to go outside to a web browser and subscribe or purchase things. That means Apps like Netflix prompt you for a log in, but you have no idea how to actually sign up.

Can you imagine walking into walmart and buying software off the shelf, and not being allowed to have a relationship with the vendor down the line without cutting Walmart in for 30%?

well no, I can't, which is why I'd tend to side with Epic on this.

Apple would be in a much better position asking a 30% cut if they actually offered an advantage when using the Apple payment system. but if it's the same as paypal and Epic is paying the yearly developer fee to publish their app, why ask more?
it's just a power move. which Apple can do but comes at the risk of antitrust scrutiny - which is what's happening now.

 

[R2FX]

both which lock you into the same uncompetitive terms. That is monopolistic. Both companies know the level of control they have because of their market share, and know that you can't be in mobile without being on their platform. That is abuse.

Lots of strong words - you sure you know what they mean? What’s uncompetitive and abusive? Go and read what the Symbian stores charged developers, let alone mobile operators taking cut for Java apps/games

 

[dguisinger]

Funny how this mirrors our politics. People want freedom. Other people don't want you using your freedom to impinge on theirs. Some want a locked down ecosystem. Some want sideloaded apps. Apple should just say we'll create a way to make it optional to have an open device but devs and customers must sign an agreement that Apple is not at fault for nearly anything that happens. AppleCare is voided, your privacy is not guaranteed, your credit card information is open, your health data is available to everyone, you touchID and FaceID will be shared on the dark web. All of this won't be able to be locked down once immoral developers' apps are allowed to freely be loaded on your device. Nearly all customers are not qualified to spot malware apps on their device. Everything Apple has built would be destroyed. I would fight this to the death because death is what it would mean if they open it up.

Is my Mac warranty and Apple care voided if I download an application? This should be no different. If they can make it work on a Mac, they should be able to make it work on a handheld computer. Same company, same OS internals under the hood. They would lock the Mac down if they didn't think people would flip the table over and walk away. iOS users should demand nothing less. Just because they offer the flexibility doesn't mean you need to use it.

 

[cocky jeremy]

The fact that Apple and Google charge the same rates and that they both blocked this move by Epic within hours of each other is so damning to each of them. It speaks to absolute collusion as together they completely own this market.

Or that the story broke out about what Epic was trying to do and both companies got wind of it and shut it down.

 

[psingh01]

You realize that's exactly what millions of peoples are doing on a Mac, right?

We aren’t supposed to acknowledge that the mac exists in the same universe as the iphone. Otherwise we have to explain how apple made it secure while allowing software install from multiple sources and they can’t do it in an iPhone. Or maybe apple’s position is that the mac is just not secure?

 

[dguisinger]

We aren’t supposed to acknowledge that the mac exists in the same universe as the iphone. Otherwise we have to explain how apple made it secure while allowing software install from multiple sources and they can’t do it in an iPhone. Or maybe apple’s position is that the mac is just not secure?

I think you are right, we all need to throw our macs out as Apple has now proven they are insecure and a huge risk to their users. Then again, judging by a lot of the messages around here... it really is possible a majority of Apple users are too stupid to safely use their devices without Apple controlling their every move.

 

[involuntarheely]

The Dr Pepper that McDonald's sells you has a 90% profit margin. Are you going to regulate that too?

you can buy the same Dr Pepper in countless other stores. McDonalds has no dominant position in selling Dr Pepper. no market power. no abuse. no need to regulate.

 

[mattopotamus]

Let me use your platform for free....

 

[dguisinger]

Let me use your platform for free....

Thats generally how computers work.

 

[Merode]

They take 12%, where as their rival Steam also takes 30% which seems to be mostly industry standard. Again if more eyes are on your store (Steam, App Store, Google Play) then you're going to get the most sales there.

Also worth to mention, if you want to use their game engine (Unreal Engine), it's included in those 12% if you sell through them. You can sell your game using Unreal elsewhere and they take only 5%, and that only if you have revenue over 1 million USD (below it's 0USD). It's almost for free compared to Apple.

Not to mention they give free games left and right each week. Recently they've been giving away new Total War on premiere day.

Yeah it's funny how they're willing to lose the mobile revenue, knowing it's only probably a small percentage of the vbucks sales, but happy to pay Microsoft and Sony their 30% cut on consoles as they the largest share of selling digital pixels to kids there.

You realize that consoles are sold below manufacturing cost (not to mention marketing) and both Microsoft and Sony make up profit through those cuts? When iPhones will be sold below manufacturing cost, we can compare those two.

 

[Merode]

EDIT: merged.

 

[grundoon]

Let's not omit the prologue:

Sept 1, 2010 – Epic Games demos Project Sword on stage at Apple Special Event
Mar 12, 2012 – Epic Games demos Infinity Blade Dungeons on stage at Apple Special Event
Jun 8, 2015 – Epic Games demos Fortnite on stage during WWDC 2015 keynote

(did I miss any?)

Because surely a decade of primetime marketing/PR and untold engineer-months of engineering support is also a reasonable expectation from your annual $99 developer program dues.

 

[involuntarheely]

Let's not omit the prologue:

Sept 1, 2010 – Epic Games demos Project Sword on stage at Apple Special Event
Mar 12, 2012 – Epic Games demos Infinity Blade Dungeons on stage at Apple Special Event
Jun 8, 2015 – Epic Games demos Fortnite on stage during WWDC 2015 keynote

(did I miss any?)

Because surely a decade of primetime marketing/PR and untold engineer-months of engineering support is also a reasonable expectation from your annual $99 developer program dues.

but then negotiate the fee with developers instead...
make Epic pay millions instead of $99.

 

[Wags]

• Epic Games describes Apple's and Google's 30 percent cut on in-app purchases as "exorbitant." Epic also notes that apps that offer real-life goods and services like Uber, DoorDash, and StubHub are not required to use Apple's in-app purchase mechanism, a rule that it believes should apply to all developers.

This point makes sense to me.... What do you all think?

I see these as a service not a product. Like Uber and doordash. It would be like going to a car mechanic and paying 30% on top of the one time service charge to fix your car.

 

[Apple Freak]

The 30% cut is way too much and Apple abuses it's position. Governments will bring that system down, don't you worry Tim Apple.

As I've said numerous times on this forum, Apple is in business to make money not give stuff away for free. 30% is not bad at all when you consider that the developer is getting 70%. What other medium could a developer get that kind of a deal?

If they chose to sell the app themselves on their own website they would still incur expenses in getting the word out and getting people to download their app. I'm guessing that would amount to costing a lot more than 30% of the revenue on the app.

 

[mattopotamus]

Thats generally how computers work.

You're not distributing your game through the windows store on PC, on a mobile device you are using an app, from the App Store under those agreed terms.

 

[dguisinger]

Let's not omit the prologue:

Sept 1, 2010 – Epic Games demos Project Sword on stage at Apple Special Event
Mar 12, 2012 – Epic Games demos Infinity Blade Dungeons on stage at Apple Special Event
Jun 8, 2015 – Epic Games demos Fortnite on stage during WWDC 2015 keynote

(did I miss any?)

Because surely a decade of primetime marketing/PR and untold engineer-months of engineering support is also a reasonable expectation from your annual $99 developer program dues.

Huh, guess it is no benefit to APPLE to show off developers making good use of their platforms? Guess its no benefit to APPLE to have an ecosystem of a million+ apps that make their product more appealing to buy

 

[Cublah09]

The 30% cut is way too much and Apple abuses it's position. Governments will bring that system down, don't you worry Tim Apple.

Actually 30% isn't a lot, if you sell physical games through a distributor, the take is much much more as much as 55%-60%, when this was announced in 2008 it was seen as a great alternative and you made more money from your game.

Epic are charging way too much anyway for virtual currency (like most developers), it's not like it costs them a fortune once it's implemented, no packaging or distribution, Apple provided the platform for developers and they accepted the terms and conditions when they signed up to become a developer, if you don't want to pay 30% then don't agree to the T&C and don't publish on Apple devices.

 

[Realityck]

Who are you to tell Apple what is too much? Developers agree to it. Otherwise, make your stuff for another platform.

Per a related topic CNET article.

Fortnite is a free-to-play game, meaning it's free to download and Epic makes money from in-game purchases. Players can buy V-Bucks, in-game currency, which are used to buy new outfits, weapons and skins. It's a hugely profitable business model. Fortnite generated $4.2 billion over 2018 and 2019.

But Epic has never approved of the 30% cut taken by Apple and Google on their respective app stories, so it set up a direct payment system allowing players to buy V-Bucks for cheaper through Epic, circumventing Apple and Google. When buying 1,000 V-Bucks, players were given a choice over paying $9.99 via the App Store or $7.99 through Epic. Apple wasn't having that, so it pulled Fortnite from the App Store. Google followed hours later.

Do all the developers out there really approve of Apple 30% transaction fee? It's a interesting debate.