Epic Games vs. Apple: Timeline of Events Surrounding Fortnite's Removal From App Store

[insoft.uk]

One could say Epic has a unfair advantage to indie developers so epic should open their engines and tools to all developers.

the AppStore is fine it gives all developers a level playing field that all developers have to follow the same rules regardless how big they are.

If big companies got their way and see the platform opened up how many small developers can deal with the complexity of selling games online to all countries, dealing with transactions refunds if needed, with an open system how long could Apple AppStore last before were at the mercy of third party big companies stores

 

[jinnj]

that is the core of the issue. are there other avenues? are they substitutes of the App store? what market are we talking about?

I guess it can be argued that the market is "videogaming" so Apple's share is actually relatively low as there are several other big players in the same market.

on the other hand, if the market was "mobile gaming" then Apple would have a larger share of that market.

if the market was "smartphone gaming" then Apple is a dominant player in that market.

again the issue is what the market is. and to reiterate, the fact that Apple has TOS and contracts with developers doesn't mean anything in terms of antitrust law. a contract between two private parties is note above the law.
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I'm guessing they needed Apple to take action, i.e. show their hand.

Google has the larger mobile market.

 

[jinnj]

12% is the cut for games that don't use the Unreal Engine. 5% is the cut for games that do. They give special preference for developers that are also paying money to use their engine, a practice which I'm sure would continue if Epic ran their own iOS/iPadOS app store.

What makes you sure it would continue cutting it's cost. When games went digital we didn't see new releases drop in price. Epic didn't care about App Stores until Valve showed that it was a viable market. Epic didn't care about opening their game engine to small developers until Unity showed that it was also a viable market.

 

[dguisinger]

One could say Epic has a unfair advantage to indie developers so epic should open their engines and tools to all developers.

the AppStore is fine it gives all developers a level playing field that all developers have to follow the same rules regardless how big they are.

If big companies got their way and see the platform opened up how many small developers can deal with the complexity of selling games online to all countries, dealing with transactions refunds if needed, with an open system how long could Apple AppStore last before were at the mercy of third party big companies stores

.... You can use Epic's game engines....for free. You are terrible at this analogy game

 

[jinnj]

15-20% is the going numbers according to expert analysis, 30% is not a arbitrary number, the only arbitrary thing about it is how apple came to the conclusion of 30%, which was leaked during the big tech congressional hearing.

30% is what the following stores are charging: Google Play, Playstation, Nintendo, Xbox, Steam. And this is all cheaper than retail. Also you know that if a title is sold in retail the developer gets less money!

 

[jinnj]

.... You can use Epic's game engines....for free.

Only because of Unity. Epic (Tim) has spent the last decade saying F'U to the indie developers.

 

[robertcoogan]

Sweeney is such a duplicitous turd.

 

[psingh01]

They make 12% on their store because they were the last to the Game Store party. The rest charge 30%. Notice how they didn't pull this BS on Fortnite for the PS4. That's because their engine can be de-certified for the PS5. Sony takes 30% as well. They are not fighting for the consumer. As a gamer I hope they never overtake Steam.

Neither is Apple. As a consumer I couldn’t care less what their motivation is as long as it benefits me in the end. It is strange to me that so many think having devs pay higher fees benefits the consumer in anyway. It all gets passed down to you.

When it comes to the Mac AppStore (which has similar policies) I have found that two software that I use different pricing schemes with the AppStore costing more in the long term. MS Office is available only via subscription on the Mac AppStore. If you want the perpetual license you have to go to Microsoft’s we store. Technically Office 365 and Office 2019 are “different versions”, but not really in practice. The other is BBEdit. It is also available only as a subscription on the AppStore. If you go to their website, there is no subscription model, but upgrading from the previous version (wink wink) is 25% cheaper.

At least for the Mac a consumer can go to an alternate store that may offer a better deal. In iOS there is no alternative. Why do you think that is? Because Apple really cares about “security” or because they want that 30% cut?

 

[dguisinger]

Only because of Unity. Epic (Tim) has spent the last decade saying F'U to the indie developers.

Oh, so because they have competition, things they do don't matter.... but because Apple has no competition, things they do are righteous?

 

[Analog Kid]

Anybody else get the feeling this Sweeny guy has a bit of a messiah complex? His "we're doing this for all of us" rhetoric is a bit much to swallow.

And how is it exactly that he's literally printing money but is complaining that Apple is somehow preventing him from making a profit? What's the COGS on a v-buck?

 

[Lowhangers]

So what percentage isn't too high? 30% is as arbitrary a number as 40% or 20%.

I’ve been wondering the exact same thing. How much is okay? If Apple lowers it to 20% are Epic and other companies going to start complaining that that is too high in a year? 10%? 5%?

 

[Lowhangers]

Timeline is not correct. Fortnite was removed on August 13. Not sure when the update was released. Great article on ARSTechnica about Epic paying the 30% with the console stores without complaint. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020...gle-it-ignores-the-same-problems-on-consoles/

Devastating article against Epic’s case. Thanks for posting it, I’ve passed it on to others. Huge thumbs up! 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

 

[burgerrecords]

Devastating article against Epic’s case. Thanks for posting it, I’ve passed it on to others. Huge thumbs up! 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

It seems to me like it lays out both sides of the argument pretty well? I don’t it see it as devastating 🤷‍♀️

 

[Abazigal]

I’ve been wondering the exact same thing. How much is okay? If Apple lowers it to 20% are Epic and other companies going to start complaining that that is too high in a year? 10%? 5%?

Epic’s endgame is to be able to offer their own App Store on iOS. In addition to being able to offer their own games and keep 100% of all purchases, Epic could also host other games and get their own cut from them, however much that is (currently 12%?).

So to answer your question, anything more than 0% is going to be too much for Epic.

 

[warnergt]

The other problem with Apple controlling the apps is that Apple can shut down your app any time they desire.
If evil communist Chinese president Xi tells Tim Cook to shut you down, you get shut down.
You KNOW Tim Cook will not hesitate to please the communist Chinese.

 

[reyesmac]

Even if your a company as big as fortnite, you can't expect to win against a monopoly who's friends with two other monopolies. Apple and Google both chose to kick them out at roughly the same time. Fortnite is not part of their club, they are just a customer. They will not succeed if both google and apple don't want them to. Unfortunately Apple learned how to be a better monopoly after their Mac department lost to it not being as easy to create forced obsolescence. The new non intel Macs may help them gain more market share and at the same time the same kind of stranglehold over the developers that they have in their iOS ecosystem. Apple could make it impossible to run apps not purchased through the App Store too. I hope that never happens or if it does that they lose big time. There should be reasonable limits to what these companies can do to their developers and customers. It would be nice if the gov protected consumers that way.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Neither is Apple. As a consumer I couldn’t care less what their motivation is as long as it benefits me in the end. It is strange to me that so many think having devs pay higher fees benefits the consumer in anyway. It all gets passed down to you.

They can TRY to pass down whatever they think they can pass down. But, everyone knows that games on PC and consoles aren’t getting cheaper even though Apple’s not there taking their 30% cut.

Anybody else get the feeling this Sweeny guy has a bit of a messiah complex? His "we're doing this for all of us" rhetoric is a bit much to swallow.

Pretty much. All of them have been. This isn’t righteous indignation, they’re just used to getting what they want.

The other problem with Apple controlling the apps is that Apple can shut down your app any time they desire.
If evil communist Chinese president Xi tells Tim Cook to shut you down, you get shut down.
You KNOW Tim Cook will not hesitate to please the communist Chinese.

In China, yes. And if anyone tried to run an illegal app in the US, it would be removed from US stores, too.

 

[ejin222]

I see these as a service not a product. Like Uber and doordash. It round be like going to a car mechanic and paying 30% on top of the one time service charge to fix your car.

I thought the point was that by them using the App store and Apple's ecosystem of users, that they were paying "rent" to be there. If they don't want to pay to be an app, then iPhone users can go on Safari and the company's website to use their services. No? Just trying to understand both sides of the argument

 

[Blu Reel]

Let's see.

1. Fortnite alone made $2.4 billion last year. And they're claiming they're fighting for the rights of all SMALL business owners. I wish I had they're SMALL business.

2. Funny about the timing of this lawsuit. Trump threatens to ban WeChat from the US market. Tencent owns WeChat. Did you know Tencent owns 40% of Epic Games? Hmmm...

 

[Cesar Battistini]

I swear to god. The App Store is what makes the iPhone great! The apps are polished, they work, no viruses.

I can just use my phone, without worrying about anything.

That’s my view. I just uninstalled the game.
Die Epic

 

[Abazigal]

Even if your a company as big as fortnite, you can't expect to win against a monopoly who's friends with two other monopolies. Apple and Google both chose to kick them out at roughly the same time. Fortnite is not part of their club, they are just a customer. They will not succeed if both google and apple don't want them to. Unfortunately Apple learned how to be a better monopoly after their Mac department lost to it not being as easy to create forced obsolescence. The new non intel Macs may help them gain more market share and at the same time the same kind of stranglehold over the developers that they have in their iOS ecosystem. Apple could make it impossible to run apps not purchased through the App Store too. I hope that never happens or if it does that they lose big time. There should be reasonable limits to what these companies can do to their developers and customers. It would be nice if the gov protected consumers that way.

It’s called switching to windows / android.

Everyone keeps calling the iOS App Store a monopoly, but I don’t think it will be so easy to prove in court.

 

[farewelwilliams]

• Epic Games describes Apple's and Google's 30 percent cut on in-app purchases as "exorbitant." Epic also notes that apps that offer real-life goods and services like Uber, DoorDash, and StubHub are not required to use Apple's in-app purchase mechanism, a rule that it believes should apply to all developers.

This point makes sense to me.... What do you all think?

Then there will be 0 apps that allow you to buy physical items. Makes no sense to ask Ikea for 30% of every purchase. Apple would rather take the hit in serving these apps and fronting all of the costs.

 

[farewelwilliams]

Neither is Apple. As a consumer I couldn’t care less what their motivation is as long as it benefits me in the end. It is strange to me that so many think having devs pay higher fees benefits the consumer in anyway. It all gets passed down to you.

When it comes to the Mac AppStore (which has similar policies) I have found that two software that I use different pricing schemes with the AppStore costing more in the long term. MS Office is available only via subscription on the Mac AppStore. If you want the perpetual license you have to go to Microsoft’s we store. Technically Office 365 and Office 2019 are “different versions”, but not really in practice. The other is BBEdit. It is also available only as a subscription on the AppStore. If you go to their website, there is no subscription model, but upgrading from the previous version (wink wink) is 25% cheaper.

At least for the Mac a consumer can go to an alternate store that may offer a better deal. In iOS there is no alternative. Why do you think that is? Because Apple really cares about “security” or because they want that 30% cut?

Only reason why Mac has alternative stores is because Mac existed before the App Store was possible. It would kill the operating system if Apple said "no more outside apps" to thousands of developers. Professionals rely on Macs with outside apps to do their jobs.

Had Mac started off with the App Store and had the same amount of customers, both versions of Office would easily be on the App Store and most likely pass most of that 30% cost onto the consumer. Sure that sounds awful considering that feels like a downgrade compared to what we have now. But if you look at platforms that started off as "locked down", such as Playstation or Xbox, gamers aren't really complaining that 30% of their $60 purchase goes straight to Sony/Microsoft.

 

[Kabeyun]

Anybody else get the feeling this Sweeny guy has a bit of a messiah complex? His "we're doing this for all of us" rhetoric is a bit much to swallow.

And how is it exactly that he's literally printing money but is complaining that Apple is somehow preventing him from making a profit? What's the COGS on a v-buck?

Truly. When he says, with an indignant tone and an altruistic pout, “it’s all about the consumer” he’s hoping we don’t realize that the customer is him.

 

[Shanghaichica]

Right, Apple could be proactive and try to head it off.... allow side loading, lower in-app and subscription skimming, etc. Maybe divert a matching percentage from Apple's own apps to a 3rd party charity or startup investment fund that is easily auditable so it can't be said Apple's apps have an unfair advantage. That would all be reasonable ways to head it off.

Didn’t do google any good. Epic still wants to screw them over.

Fortnite for Android will ditch Google Play Store for Epic’s website

Epic Games CEO cites “economic efficiency” of bypassing Play Store’s 30 percent cut.

www.theverge.com