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If Apple insists on a monopoly on the app store, what is really happening is that the Chinese Government, and all other sizeable governments in the world, have control of the app store.

Apple isn't going to ruin its business over some app some government doesn't like - they'll remove that app.

And Apple is going to add tracing apps if governments ask.

That means CHINA is now controlling your phone. Within limits, for the time being, but fast forward 10 years what do you think will happen? Ohh they'd never remove an app from the US store... except if they don't like it... because Apple can't say no. That's for sure.

Can Apple afford to offend China? China can actually, all by itself, send Apple into bankrupcy, just like the USA can.

The only way Apple can get around that is by - not being in control. Putting app stores under independent, decentralized control would be best. It's too important an issue to let an asian dictatorship decide what's on your phone.
 
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let's not forget Apple Arcade is a thing so that makes the App store an infrastructure for a market in which Apple themselves compete in.

This is a huge, under-reported part of the story. They demanded 30% for IAP for Spotify while competing with Apple Music. ClassPass is being held hostage for 30% once they switched from in-person to online fitness classes because of the pandemic, meanwhile Apple is planning to launch its own service of online fitness classes (Apple One/Seymour).
 
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The fairest would be if Apple lowered the percentage for the apps with the lowest turnover. Not for Fortnite.

Like it would be the fairest if big corporations like Apple would pay the highest profit taxes to local governments.

It’s the same game.
 
As for operating costs, you have clearly no idea how much it costs to run a server farm, 24hrs a day, a team to do all the behind the scenes stuff. Oh, and 30% is chicken feed to the norm of 45%+ markups from companies.

Actually, you have no idea how much it costs... I actually know a bit about infrastructure costs on large scale distributed systems and let me tell you: you're wrong. The cost is very very tiny. For a virtual transaction that involves basically only changing numbers in a database and downloads, the incremental costs are almost zero per transaction.

If you don't believe me, let's compare some related markets and costs of services I'm sure you know about:
1) Google, Facebook, etc. provide extremely sophisticated services yet survive only on ad revenue. For example, Gmail, web search, are all extremely complex systems involving hundreds of thousands of machines worldwide, if not more. This is much more complicated than an App Store. Each ad click from a user pays next to nothing, but this revenue is enough to support the free(!) products and these companies are some of the most profitable.
2) A product like Microsoft Windows does not charge developers to be on the platform. Microsoft also spends a lot of money catering to the developer community and provides support and development tools. Yet Microsoft Windows is also a wildly successful and profitable product. Why does Microsoft leave money on the table? Because when the platform is diverse, they end up benefiting indirectly. Yes, Microsoft charges for Windows itself. But Apple also charges for your iPhone.
3) The specific action that caused this ban is that Epic used its own payment processor. Consider credit cards, banks and Visa/MasterCard. They charge vendors a small percentage (3%? 1/10 that of Apple). Yet their costs must be greater than that of Apple because much of their services are provided offline. They also have customer service (do you get phone customer service with the App Store?), server costs, network costs, marketing costs, anti-fraud costs, etc.

Each of the examples above involves much lower fees. Apple's costs are not nearly as much as you think. It's essentially all profit. So Epic is in the right to dispute this. I'm pretty sure the last thing Apple wants to do is to provide a justification in court of their costs. Because then everyone will see just how obscene their profits are.
 
This is a huge, under-reported part of the story. They demanded 30% for IAP for Spotify while competing with Apple Music. ClassPass is being held hostage for 30% once they switched from in-person to online fitness classes because of the pandemic, meanwhile Apple is planning to launch its own service of online fitness classes (Apple One/Seymour).

This is the very definition of anti-competitive behavior and is most likely illegal. Apple is using its chokehold in one market (in hardware, in app stores) to crush their competitors in another market (music, games).

Consider Apple Music vs Spotify. Spotify has to pay Apple 30%. Apple doesn't have this 30% cost because their true cost for hosting the service is minimal (see my previous post on costs). Therefore, Apple is taxing its direct competitor, causing them to make less money. What's more, they're directly profiting from their competitor's business, by taking money from each sale of their competitor!

That is, not only is Spotify making less money, each time they do make money, they're also enriching their competitor Apple! It's very possible that for each sale, spotify's profit margin (given that content is expensive) is actually less than that of Apple's, on a service provided by Spotify!

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Historical tidbit:
In the 90s, Microsoft was found guilty of anti-competitor behavior in US courts for using their operating system chokehold to crush their browser competitor Netscape. And what exactly did MS do that was so bad? They bundled Internet Explorer for free with Windows... That's right: they were violating the law for giving away something for free. At least in that case, you could say the consumer got a good deal. In Apple's case, Epic just demonstrated in clear terms actual damage to the consumer when they listed the two prices of transactions side by side: $7.99 vs $9.99 via Apple.
 
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Is anyone convinced that Epic is doing this for all the little guys out there? Of course not. They would have an outsized benefit if the rules were changed in their favor. It’s selfish greed, pure and simple.
 
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Historical tidbit:
In the 90s, Microsoft was found guilty of anti-competitor behavior in US courts for using their operating system chokehold to crush their browser competitor Netscape. And what exactly did MS do that was so bad? They bundled Internet Explorer for free with Windows... That's right: they were violating the law for giving away something for free. At least in that case, you could say the consumer got a good deal. In Apple's case, Epic just demonstrated in clear terms actual damage to the consumer when they listed the two prices of transactions side by side: $7.99 vs $9.99 via Apple.
Microsoft at one time also bundled ip services with windows. Was that anti-competitive to the vendors providing their own solution? They also bundled a basic text editor with windows. Was that anti-competitive to the text editor market? And as far as epics pricing: they could have said $1 vs $10. Epic can say anything it wants.

It seems the wheels of justice may have some flat spots.
 
Is anyone convinced that Epic is doing this for all the little guys out there? Of course not. They would have an outsized benefit if the rules were changed in their favor. It’s selfish greed, pure and simple.
This is the standard argument that they aren’t doing this for anyone else. But if you have very little cost to themselves with these app stores for each transaction what is the purpose of charging 30% to developers to their sales where they did all the development/work and also sticking it to consumers who ultimately are footing everything?
 
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Epic signed up to the rules and conditions, if they no longer want to stick to them just kick them out in their entirety. Apple own the App Store and nobody has a default entitlement to be there, you sign up to the T&C’s and get pulled if you don’t stick to them. Apple should just kick Epic out as a developer and refuse to let them back in.
 
Using the Verge article to highlight some observations

First being how big is the Apple App store







This part about developers are terrified of Apple I find interesting . . .look at the daring FireBall article linked.





Think about all the observation copied to here before thinking that Apple is doing nothing wrong. Perhaps there are a lot of developers without EPIC's billions that have been putting up with not having any say and barely surviving that huge cut that Apple demands as well as Google. If you say a lot of stores all do the same thing, that leads back to price fixing theory. I'd almost say this is a good time for Apple to hear from developers besides EPIC and consider if what they are currently doing is fair considering how much money the store makes for them now, never mind the small fry that use the store to give away applications to get a name for themselves. :)
The sad reality is Apple doesn’t give a **** and that going to bite them in the ass.
 
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If developers don't like Apple's 30% take, then simply don't put your game on the App Store. No one forced you to be a developer for Apple. I think Apple's 30% is very reasonable, considering that Apple puts a lot of effort into the App Store, and has to pay for its engineers too and to maintain the high quality app store.
Unfortunately for you, the people who makes the apps disagree with you and it’s starting to show.
 
If Apple and Google hadn’t spent billions of dollars developing the operating systems, SDKs, app stores and secure payment systems that developers have benefited from then we would have had a much smaller app economy.

We would most likely be almost 10 years behind current progress because when iOS and Android came out they were a decade ahead of everything that existed.

So all these companies complaining owe Apple and Google a massive thank you and there is much more innovation ahead because of these two companies (and Microsoft).

Tencent, Bytedance and the CCP need to stop playing games and stop using Epic as a proxy attack. They owe Apple a debt of gratitude and profit from Apple greatly.

They should be grateful that phones don’t look like this anymore and aren’t full of very easy to exploit security holes...

View attachment 944366
If people didn’t give money to BUILD it 🙄
 
Epic signed up to the rules and conditions, if they no longer want to stick to them just kick them out in their entirety. Apple own the App Store and nobody has a default entitlement to be there, you sign up to the T&C’s and get pulled if you don’t stick to them. Apple should just kick Epic out as a developer and refuse to let them back in.
How is any of that pro-consumer? Even developers are consumers. You just described Apple behaving like a king with his kingdom with rules that have to be obeyed. Keep it up, your not helping Apple's image at all. :D
 
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Apple could shut down their developer App Store. To their own detriment, sure, but they could. I don’t think a legal proceeding would require them to reopen. The monopoly argument is bunk. The terms, though, are still concerning.
 
Apple could shut down their developer App Store. To their own detriment, sure, but they could. I don’t think a legal proceeding would require them to reopen. The monopoly argument is bunk. The terms, though, are still concerning.
Again, fortunately it’s not your decision if it’s a monopoly or not.
 
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Lots of strong words - you sure you know what they mean? What’s uncompetitive and abusive? Go and read what the Symbian stores charged developers, let alone mobile operators taking cut for Java apps/games

Which is why they aren't around anymore.


Actually 30% isn't a lot, if you sell physical games through a distributor, the take is much much more as much as 55%-60%, when this was announced in 2008 it was seen as a great alternative and you made more money from your game.

Each copy of a physical game takes up space on a store's shelves, sitting on top of land that must be rented or purchased, and that space, once occupied by that game, cannot simultaneously be occupied by any other product. It requires cashiers to handle scanning the product and taking payment. It requires stock clerks to move them from storage onto the shelves and keep the shelves organized. It requires department staffers to direct people to the right aisle. It requires fire and police protection that are paid for by property taxes.

And remember that there are multiple parties involved in that 55–60%. Part of it went into manufacturing the physical product. Part of it was paid to the distributor. Part of it was likely paid to a wholesaler that bought from the distributor. And the rest was paid to the retailer that bought from the wholesaler, not counting the 3% that went to the credit card processor et al, where applicable. That's a far cry from the App Store, where there's just one company in the middle (plus the credit card processor).


I hate that developers have to pay such a steep "tax" to have their game distributed on the various platforms. However, as a consumer, I do not want to give out my credit card to various companies. It's easier to trust and hold one company accountable for their practices in PCI Compliance than several companies. Especially with breaches that we've seen with Home Depot, Equifax, Target, etc. I would hate to see how less security focused companies are handling Credit Card information. I have to side with Apple on this one.

I think everyone would be fine with requiring that anyone who accepts payments for digital goods must allow Apple's payments to be one of the options (with a no-more-than-reasonable upcharge to cover the high fees). That should cover folks who feel as you do without forcing everyone to pay more because of lack of payment processor competition.



It's Apple's app store, it can do what it wants. There is no monopoly or anti-competitive behavior because there is very healthy competition: Google's Android. The vast majority of devices in the world run Android. That right there destroys any argument that Apple has anything close to resembling a monopoly.

You keep using the word "monopoly". The core purpose of anti-trust laws is to prevent monopolies from forming, but they do not apply exclusively to monopolies, or even duopolies.

Want to know what market doesn't exist because of their behavior? Mobile download payment processors. Apple requires you to use their own internal payment system for mobile downloads, and the rest of the industry followed their lead. As a result, there's an entire missing industry filled with competitors that should exist to handle the purchase of in-app downloads in the mobile device world. That right there destroys any argument that Apple's actions are not monopolistic and anticompetitive in their effect.



I am pretty sure the AppleTV cost more than pennies.

And macOS development.

and iOS, iPadOS, the hardware, iCloud, etc all cost more than a few pennies. All those things make the little apps easier to develop and increase value for your app. No taking advantage of every resource Apple offers is the developers fault.

And yet for decades, companies have been building hardware and operating systems without demanding a cut of sales for every app that runs on their platform. Why should mobile be special? Users already pay for the operating system and hardware development as part of the purchase price of their devices. It isn't being subsidized by app purchases and in-app purchases.


Self-publish on Amazon and you keep 70%. Make it a paperback and it’s only 60%. Shall we sue? Has anyone?

N.B. Actually, someone did try to break that monopoly and was rewarded with an antitrust lawsuit. That company was Apple.

Apple was rewarded with an antitrust lawsuit for not allowing anyone to sell their books at a cheaper price through other stores, even if those other stores took a lower cut of the purchase price, thus effectively colluding with Amazon et al in a giant price-fixing scheme, but don't let the facts stop a good rant.


EXACTLY. The App Store is not a monopoly in any way, no matter how you slice it. Not happy with the App Store? Then dont put your game on it. Dont do business on the app store. Dont be a developer. If Epic Games is so great, then create your OWN platform and app store and make your own devices, like what apple does now (obviously that would be impossible for Epic Games) so just shut up and quit it.

I think it would be absolutely hilarious if Netflix, Amazon, Facebook, and every major game maker did just that. Suddenly, you'd all be screaming, "Why are there no apps for iOS?" and Apple would be wondering why everybody stopped buying their devices. It's already starting to be a problem with Facebook's games. It's just a matter of time before this policy starts hurting Apple's hardware sales noticeably.

Trust me, Apple losing this fight quickly and soundly is by far the best outcome, both for Apple and for their users. It would not even surprise me if Apple asked Epic Games to do this so that they could change this policy without it looking like they were bowing to pressure from Facebook.


Epic signed up to the rules and conditions, if they no longer want to stick to them just kick them out in their entirety. Apple own the App Store and nobody has a default entitlement to be there, you sign up to the T&C’s and get pulled if you don’t stick to them. Apple should just kick Epic out as a developer and refuse to let them back in.

I'm glad most folks don't share that opinion. Otherwise we would still have sweatshops with child labor in this country, we would have no OSHA, etc. One of the most fundamental tenets of contract law is that contract terms that violate the law are invalid. That's what this is all about — letting the courts decide if those contract terms violate the law. There's only one way to do that, and that is to take it to court.

And no, they could not just sue first, because without actually selling products on the store, they could not show that they were financially harmed by those contract terms, and likely would likely not have standing to sue.
 
I hope this ends up killing epic games. They make crap and they are crap. Should have been kicked off months ago since I’m sure most of the snot nosed kids are using their parents credit cards to buy worthless garbage.
 
Which is why they aren't around anymore.




Each copy of a physical game takes up space on a store's shelves, sitting on top of land that must be rented or purchased, and that space, once occupied by that game, cannot simultaneously be occupied by any other product. It requires cashiers to handle scanning the product and taking payment. It requires stock clerks to move them from storage onto the shelves and keep the shelves organized. It requires department staffers to direct people to the right aisle. It requires fire and police protection that are paid for by property taxes.

And remember that there are multiple parties involved in that 55–60%. Part of it went into manufacturing the physical product. Part of it was paid to the distributor. Part of it was likely paid to a wholesaler that bought from the distributor. And the rest was paid to the retailer that bought from the wholesaler, not counting the 3% that went to the credit card processor et al, where applicable. That's a far cry from the App Store, where there's just one company in the middle (plus the credit card processor).




I think everyone would be fine with requiring that anyone who accepts payments for digital goods must allow Apple's payments to be one of the options (with a no-more-than-reasonable upcharge to cover the high fees). That should cover folks who feel as you do without forcing everyone to pay more because of lack of payment processor competition.





You keep using the word "monopoly". The core purpose of anti-trust laws is to prevent monopolies from forming, but they do not apply exclusively to monopolies, or even duopolies.

Want to know what market doesn't exist because of their behavior? Mobile download payment processors. Apple requires you to use their own internal payment system for mobile downloads, and the rest of the industry followed their lead. As a result, there's an entire missing industry filled with competitors that should exist to handle the purchase of in-app downloads in the mobile device world. That right there destroys any argument that Apple's actions are not monopolistic and anticompetitive in their effect.





And yet for decades, companies have been building hardware and operating systems without demanding a cut of sales for every app that runs on their platform. Why should mobile be special? Users already pay for the operating system and hardware development as part of the purchase price of their devices. It isn't being subsidized by app purchases and in-app purchases.




Apple was rewarded with an antitrust lawsuit for not allowing anyone to sell their books at a cheaper price through other stores, even if those other stores took a lower cut of the purchase price, thus effectively colluding with Amazon et al in a giant price-fixing scheme, but don't let the facts stop a good rant.




I think it would be absolutely hilarious if Netflix, Amazon, Facebook, and every major game maker did just that. Suddenly, you'd all be screaming, "Why are there no apps for iOS?" and Apple would be wondering why everybody stopped buying their devices. It's already starting to be a problem with Facebook's games. It's just a matter of time before this policy starts hurting Apple's hardware sales noticeably.

Trust me, Apple losing this fight quickly and soundly is by far the best outcome, both for Apple and for their users. It would not even surprise me if Apple asked Epic Games to do this so that they could change this policy without it looking like they were bowing to pressure from Facebook.




I'm glad most folks don't share that opinion. Otherwise we would still have sweatshops with child labor in this country, we would have no OSHA, etc. One of the most fundamental tenets of contract law is that contract terms that violate the law are invalid. That's what this is all about — letting the courts decide if those contract terms violate the law. There's only one way to do that, and that is to take it to court.

And no, they could not just sue first, because without actually selling products on the store, they could not show that they were financially harmed by those contract terms, and likely would likely not have standing to sue.

It’s called progress.

Supporting Epic suggests you think the old ways were good.

And don’t compare Epic with sweatshops. That’s disrespectful. Epic is one branch of a criminal organization. Fortnight was the casinos.
 
Apple could argue that since Fortnite is free to play, Apple is just collecting their share of what would otherwise be Fortnite's sale price, as for any other app.

I think Epic might argue that Apple wants monopoly over the in-app payment system. and that cannot be about safety.
It’s not about safety, it’s clearly financial.
 
I hope this ends up killing epic games. They make crap and they are crap. Should have been kicked off months ago since I’m sure most of the snot nosed kids are using their parents credit cards to buy worthless garbage.
I love Unreal Tournament, Gears of War, and the Infinity Blade series.
 
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As a consumer, I’d much rather pay an extra $1 or $2 to ensure I am able to be protected under scams (or hacks to their payment system), able to get refunds easily have parental control over purchases, and many other security/usability features. I’m okay with it and I’m sure others are too. (Or don’t even notice that it costs slightly more when compared to their standalone website).
I’m exactly on this bandwagon too.
I would rather pay, say $13 for GoodNotes 5 from the AppStore instead of $10ish outside and get the security, sync between devices, family sharing, Mac/iOS/iPadOS all in one shot, auto updates, change/upgrade/repair device and it’s still magically there like if it never went away, etc etc etc.... same with ProCreate, Photoshop and others.

However, how could this be resolved? There must be a way to keep everybody happy? Devs and customers and tinkering users alike?
Maybe allowing the use of apps installed from everywhere but shifting accountability in that case? i.e refunds have to be handled on your own, if an user’s bank account gets hacked can’t blame Apple for malware gotten from dubious software, so on and so forth...

Would that make sense?
 
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