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This is a war? Wow

It became one when Epic and their little app coalition (include DDH who is now having staffing issues of his own after his little stunt resulted in a third of his employees walking) decided they would try and burn the iOS App Store model to the ground just so they could earn more from IAPs.

Prior to this, Apple could still be persuaded to make minor concessions and improvements here and there.

But now? If Apple does win the lawsuit, it will see this victory as proof of its unassailable authority over the iOS App Store and have no reason to continue with any form of meaningful reform.

Epic is playing a very dangerous gamble here.
 
I recently purchased such a pass successfully (I got a receipt for the pass from Apple). Later the same day I went into the game again and no event pass.
I think the lesson here is, if you pay for something and don’t get it, you don’t pay again and hope things get sorted out.
 
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This is wrong:

in Physical sales the developer gets 100% of the price they ask from the retailer. The Retailer than provides markup in order to include their own profit margins.

That's not the model of application stores. in this case, Apple doesn't pay anyone for just having their app available in the store itself. in fact, Apple charges Developers for that already.

if we wanted to make some weird analogy to physical stores, it would be more like:

Widget Producer pays Walmart for "right" to have a shelf in the store with a "receipt". the buyer takes that receit to the checkout. then the Walmart tells the widget buyer to send you the widget. And then takes another 30% from that transaction

it's a silly analogy because comparing what an App store does and their models to physical retail presence doesn't work. the entire model of who pays who and when is completely different.

in retail: the storefront does not take a set cut of every sale of every widget. They purchase those widgets and attempt to sell it to you at their own markup. if that widget doesn't sell, it's not the manufacturer who loses, it's Walmart.

in the App store model, Apple NEVER loses and always gains through numerous different means because they have a captive audience who can not go elsewhere. that by definition is a monopolistic business model.
Monopolies are not illegal.

Besides this fact, consumers can go elsewhere — Android controls the vast majority of the mobile market.
 
Like many here, I used to be a big supporter of the app store approach. Make sure that you know the app is safe and you have somewhere to go with an issue. Today even though I don't have to, I shop for Mac software on the Mac app store not the internet itself.

Well, I just recently had an experience that started me thinking maybe the app store idea has some flaws in it. I play a game that has a number of in-app purchase items including event passes (gets you extra rewards for doing well in an event). I recently purchased such a pass successfully (I got a receipt for the pass from Apple). Later the same day I went into the game again and no event pass. I repurchased the event pass (and got another email receipt for it from Apple) both on the same day. I contacted the game publisher and they said sorry this happened but we can't refund you have to go to App Store support for that. After digging around a bit, I found out how you request a refund and went ahead and did so. They don't even give you a place to explain why you want the refund. After about 24 hours I got an email saying my request had been updated. I went to the system and saw that they rejected the refund request. No explanation, just no refund. They did give me a chance to ask for a review and I did so. There they give you a chance to explain what happened and I did so. 24 hours later, I get a notice of activity on my review. Go to the system and find out that the review also rejected my refund request. Again, no explanation. Now I have no choice but to eat the $32 that I am out.

I can't help but think that Apple has little or no impulse to grant a refund while the game publisher would have more interest since they would want to keep me as an active player in their game (I have been doing this game for years). Apple clearly has a much different approach from Amazon which is quick to refund if you have an issue and is the reason that I deal with them a lot. Apple either needs to up their customer support for App Store purchases or maybe they need to step aside at some point and let customers make in app purchases direct from the publisher. They don't seem to be providing much service in this case. Just collecting money.
Not to discount your experience, it's your experience after all and no matter what, your experience sucked.

Having said that, I've dealt with refunds as a consumer and as a dev I can see how many people get a refund for my app and I get feedback from users whenever I send them over to Apple to ask for a refund. In my experience, I've never heard of a refund not being granted. Hell, I semi-regularly even get a pro-rated refund for AppleCare+ after I sell the device that's covered. That obviously doesn't mean it never happens, case in point, your situation.

There's is one caveat however where I can imagine some difficulties, which is with what's called a "consumable" in app transaction.
Typically these are gems, hearts, whatever it is a fashionable game wants to call the thing they use to have your brain not notice you're spending money.
Your pass sounds like a consumable (non-consumables can't be purchased twice, the App Store will just automatically restore the purchase) and I can imagine that they're a bit more difficult with consumables (e.g. buy gems, spend gems, get refund, rinse repeat).
Consumables can't be restored either because that would defeat the purpose (e.g. buy gems, spend gems, restore, rinse repeat) and so because of that the onus is on the dev, more than usual, to keep track of these transactions and make sure they are added to your account on the dev's side.

Either way, let this comment end in an attempt to be helpful: reach out to Apple Support, either via the email option or, preferably, via chat (iMessage, or the chat on the website) and try it that way. Explain what happened and explain that the dev told you to ask for a refund. This still has no guarantees, but I'd genuinely be surprised if nothing can be done for you.
 
This is wrong:

in Physical sales the developer gets 100% of the price they ask from the retailer. The Retailer than provides markup in order to include their own profit margins.

That's not the model of application stores. in this case, Apple doesn't pay anyone for just having their app available in the store itself. in fact, Apple charges Developers for that already.

if we wanted to make some weird analogy to physical stores, it would be more like:

Widget Producer pays Walmart for "right" to have a shelf in the store with a "receipt". the buyer takes that receit to the checkout. then the Walmart tells the widget buyer to send you the widget. And then takes another 30% from that transaction

it's a silly analogy because comparing what an App store does and their models to physical retail presence doesn't work. the entire model of who pays who and when is completely different.

in retail: the storefront does not take a set cut of every sale of every widget. They purchase those widgets and attempt to sell it to you at their own markup. if that widget doesn't sell, it's not the manufacturer who loses, it's Walmart.

in the App store model, Apple NEVER loses and always gains through numerous different means because they have a captive audience who can not go elsewhere. that by definition is a monopolistic business model.

Wrong? Silly?

It was a super simple example about perspective.

Epic can’t claim stupid. Epic knew that there is 30% fee and that they’re not entitled to the full amount. So if they set their margin at $7, then the end price will be $10. If they wanted $10, then the end price would have to be 14 and change.

Is it a high rate? Depends on IF you are successful, IF you sell through the app store or not and how much you sell. Maybe it could be restructered or tiered or hybrid, … but you don’t go violating agreements and claim not fair, when they willingly and knowingly entered into an agreement to develop and publish.

If they thought the 30% was too high - even if it was just the same as all other app stores - … EPIC could have just taken a hike, and skipped iOS, skipped Android, Microsoft, … oh wait.

Yeah, it costs money to do business, it costs money to get onto platforms and reach an audience.

Brands fight hard to get their products in front of consumers, whether as a value brand, mid tier or exclusive brand. Who cares if a retailer does not have a fixed markup for every single item they sell? Apple kept chose to keep it simple. Free tools, free platform, support etc … Selling? 30%.
Epic knowingly said yes to develop for iOS and this fee structure.

And, it does have merit to look to traditional sales. Retail is very competetive. Brands have to hit price points so that their products will sell, or the merchandise will not move, most retailers will not agree to offer it for sale, if they don’t see it as a saleable item. So you need to hit a certain wholesale cost. Then + fees and profit sets the retail price. That $5 toy just became a $15-20 toy. The brand gets their $5, and the retailer gets their $10-15 gross per toy, before credit cards fees and all operational costs.

Lots more can be said. In essence it is simple. Epic knowingly agreed to the store rules and then knowingly violated the agreements it entered into.
 
All these Apple fanboys acting like the AppStore is some big favor Apple is doing for us. I love Apple devices but you are kidding yourself if you think they deserve 30%.

back in the pre-mobile era nobody gave Apple or windows a cut of software. That should be how it goes back to. You can use Apple App Store and pay cut or else just go straight to website and download the app you want.

Does anyone want the iOS method to come to Mac where every app must go through Apple store and You have to pay a 30% commission if you buy anything?
Do you want to go back to the olden days where carriers have full control of your phone?
 
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Obviously not. They are challenging what they see as anti competitive behaviour from a monopolist. I’m sure you know that.
No they are challenging ONE company out of four that they get the same deal from, in the case of Sony, an even worse deal!

Why didn't they start with one of those ? Aren't they monopolies as well on their own platform ?

Like many here, I used to be a big supporter of the app store approach. Make sure that you know the app is safe and you have somewhere to go with an issue. Today even though I don't have to, I shop for Mac software on the Mac app store not the internet itself.

Well, I just recently had an experience that started me thinking maybe the app store idea has some flaws in it. I play a game that has a number of in-app purchase items including event passes (gets you extra rewards for doing well in an event). I recently purchased such a pass successfully (I got a receipt for the pass from Apple). Later the same day I went into the game again and no event pass. I repurchased the event pass (and got another email receipt for it from Apple) both on the same day. I contacted the game publisher and they said sorry this happened but we can't refund you have to go to App Store support for that. After digging around a bit, I found out how you request a refund and went ahead and did so. They don't even give you a place to explain why you want the refund. After about 24 hours I got an email saying my request had been updated. I went to the system and saw that they rejected the refund request. No explanation, just no refund. They did give me a chance to ask for a review and I did so. There they give you a chance to explain what happened and I did so. 24 hours later, I get a notice of activity on my review. Go to the system and find out that the review also rejected my refund request. Again, no explanation. Now I have no choice but to eat the $32 that I am out.

I can't help but think that Apple has little or no impulse to grant a refund while the game publisher would have more interest since they would want to keep me as an active player in their game (I have been doing this game for years). Apple clearly has a much different approach from Amazon which is quick to refund if you have an issue and is the reason that I deal with them a lot. Apple either needs to up their customer support for App Store purchases or maybe they need to step aside at some point and let customers make in app purchases direct from the publisher. They don't seem to be providing much service in this case. Just collecting money.

You should have contacted the games publisher after the initial purchase. You have a choice to contact Apple again or get the publisher to intervene on your behalf (they can).
 
I think what many are missing is that Epic agreed to contractual terms (years ago), then violated them to bring about this action.

The other part that many are missing is that they could have brought the action without violating their contract, or screwing over their existing IOS customers. They made that decision to attempt to bring public opinion in their favor. They have failed in that regard, bigly.

Edit - The other thing Epic seems to be saying, though not out loud, is that Apple should be required to support any developer or payment model on the platform they built.

Another argument has been made that IOS is analogous to MS-DOS or Windows, but I'm unaware of development platforms that I can use directly on an Android OR an Apple phone.
 
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Do you own macs? Do you wish they locked down the entire OS so you could only use the Mac App Store? I have 3 macs in my house and I would hate that. Not sure why everyone is so happy their iOS devices are locked down.
Because the Mac wasn’t locked down when I bought it. The iOS device was. If both stay the way they are, I’d be fine. Then again, when I made the decision to purchase an iOS device, I did so knowing it was locked down and had no problem with it. There’s probably folks that have a problem with it, but STILL bought the iPhone. All of those dollars were a clear sign to Apple “Folks don’t care” or at least “Don’t care ENOUGH to signal their disgust with their dollars”.
 
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Who are you guys going to bet on? Seems like Epic is actually getting somewhere, regardless of what you think about their claims.

There *are* many evidence of anti-competitiveness of Apple App Store. But the case of EPIC and their argument is slightly too weak to win the court. If they were a non-gaming company, they might stand a chance.
 
Epic: "There's a name for businesses that set prices without regard to costs: Monopolists."

Also Epic: Charges $5 for a PNG file that wraps around a 3D object. Let's talk about prices without regard to cost, shall we.
 
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All these Apple fanboys acting like the AppStore is some big favor Apple is doing for us. I love Apple devices but you are kidding yourself if you think they deserve 30%.

back in the pre-mobile era nobody gave Apple or windows a cut of software. That should be how it goes back to. You can use Apple App Store and pay cut or else just go straight to website and download the app you want.

Does anyone want the iOS method to come to Mac where every app must go through Apple store and You have to pay a 30% commission if you buy anything?
Ah, imagine being able to buy a piece of software and use it for 5 or 6 years before then deciding to upgrade it. These damn subscriptions drive me crazY!
 
Because the Mac wasn’t locked down when I bought it. The iOS device was. If both stay the way they are, I’d be fine. Then again, when I made the decision to purchase an iOS device, I did so knowing it was locked down and had no problem with it. There’s probably folks that have a problem with it, but STILL bought the iPhone. All of those dollars were a clear sign to Apple “Folks don’t care” or at least “Don’t care ENOUGH to signal their disgust with their dollars”.
I bought i-device when Fortnite or Parler was in the AppStore. Then these apps were removed.

On PS, Xbox or even Nintendo Switch I can buy physical storage medium. And I can even upgrade theirs firmwares without internet 😯
 
Not a whole lot, I don’t think. Part of the reason why I think they felt it was worth going into this the way they did was understanding that, during the trial, their bottom line wouldn’t be hurt much.
But then what happens to the folks using Stagecraft and UE for AppleTV+ programs? Or folks using Apple hardware plus UE for special effects overall?
 
It became one when Epic and their little app coalition (include DDH who is now having staffing issues of his own after his little stunt resulted in a third of his employees walking) decided they would try and burn the iOS App Store model to the ground just so they could earn more from IAPs.

Prior to this, Apple could still be persuaded to make minor concessions and improvements here and there.

But now? If Apple does win the lawsuit, it will see this victory as proof of its unassailable authority over the iOS App Store and have no reason to continue with any form of meaningful reform.

Epic is playing a very dangerous gamble here.
It’s still not a “war”.
 
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