Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Epic Games vs. Apple Trial Begins With Opening Remarks Underway
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
Just replace it with their fearless leader’s quotes where he acts like he’s a civil rights warrior because he wants to maximize profits generated from children playing that game.
Jesus christ, how does this psychotic devotion to Apple come about?
How does choosing against the side that you think is wrong equate to "psychotic devotion"? Just because somebody thinks that Epic is in the wrong doesn't mean they are devoted to Apple.
I think they’re more referring to the comments about hoping they go bankrupt.
All consumers pay for the distribution of any goods and services. It is a mechanism by which consumers have access to a wide range of products.
Apple created an efficient mechanism that gives consumers access to software at a far lower cost than what software had traditionally been sold for. This is partly due to the efficient system that they built, and also to the reasonable fee they charge.
An ace up Epic's sleeve is something that keeps getting talked about which is the 30% is the standard practice amongst tech companies for in-app purchases, Apple due to it's app store, Google due to it's Play Store, Sony and Microsoft due to their online console stores, Steam due to it's online store. And they all have one thing in common, charging developers and other companies 30% fee for using their services. Once that connection is made, it then comes under the term 'industry practice' and as a result, can be investigated or scrutinised for monopolistic behaviour or unlawful businesses practices.
In the EU, over the years there have been large numbers of industries that have been found guilty of unlawful business practices, basically groups of companies/businesses involved in the same industry, colluding with each other to keep prices artificially high. If Apple persist in sticking with the notion that they are only doing what others in the industry are doing, this would open the door for Epic to claim that each company is colluding with each other to keep the charges at 30%.
Epic are already claiming that the 30% charge Apple charges not only Epic but other app developers too is not for the sole use of cost of the app store, something which Apple says it is. Depending on which financial website you look at, Apple gets anywhere between $9 billion to $20 billion a year in app fee charges from Epic. Remember, this is just one company, how much more is Apple getting in app fee charges from all the other companies that are forced to use Apples pay system. Unless Apple can justify to the court that it costs all these billons to run just the app store, Epic has a good claim that the 30% is therefore an unjust charge because Epic should only be paying for the upkeep of the app store, nothing else.
This is not going to be easy for Apple as many people in here think it is.
In the EU, over the years there have been large numbers of industries that have been found guilty of unlawful business practices, basically groups of companies/businesses involved in the same industry, colluding with each other to keep prices artificially high. If Apple persist in sticking with the notion that they are only doing what others in the industry are doing, this would open the door for Epic to claim that each company is colluding with each other to keep the charges at 30%.
Epic are already claiming that the 30% charge Apple charges not only Epic but other app developers too is not for the sole use of cost of the app store, something which Apple says it is. Depending on which financial website you look at, Apple gets anywhere between $9 billion to $20 billion a year in app fee charges from Epic. Remember, this is just one company, how much more is Apple getting in app fee charges from all the other companies that are forced to use Apples pay system. Unless Apple can justify to the court that it costs all these billons to run just the app store, Epic has a good claim that the 30% is therefore an unjust charge because Epic should only be paying for the upkeep of the app store, nothing else.
This is not going to be easy for Apple as many people in here think it is.
Apple will win this without a hitch. Just know that for truth.
E.U. law has nothing to do with this case. And it’s not collusion to charge the same as everyone else. Especially when you are one of the first to charge that amount. And the judge, today, asked Tim Sweeney questions that indicate she knows what’s up. And apple never said the 30% is “for the sole use of cost of the App Store.” They’ve actually argued quite the opposite - that it subsidizes all the work they do to provide SDKs, developer resources, developer assistance, etc. Apple does not have to justify that it costs whatever they get in App Store fees to run the store - in fact, Tim Sweeney has argued that console makers can charge more than what it costs to run the store because the fees go to subsidize hardware. Apple cannot possibly get between 90 and 20 billion a year in app fee charges from Epic. Epic has only $3 billion a year in revenue. You just are making up all sorts of crazy stuff here.
I mean, if one just invents facts (epic pays apple fees that are equal to 7 times what it receives in total revenue) and the law (it’s collusion to charge the going rate), then, sure Apple’s in for it.
They would need to prove it was collusion via diaries, clandestine meetings etc ..
As was mentioned in the case today, developers make far more today than they ever did (a mere 12%) before the app stores - and that was on real software, not monopoly vouchers to dress your unicorn.
I don't remember Apple every stating it costs 30% to run the store (correct me if I'm wrong). In any case why should Apple not turn a profit on an outlet they have invested massive amounts of time and resources into building and maintaining?
Bottom line is Epic cares about their bottom line. They want to pay zero, zip, nada and hold onto 100% of the profits they make on the coat-tails of the iOS platform (and every other if they manage win this).
It's sure looks like its going to be interesting to see what other juicy tidbits come out over the course of the trial.
Out of curiosity, how much money would Epic be leaving on the table if they took their ball and went home? Like no UE support on Apple hardware at all.
Apple will win. The war will be won by amending existing legislation to achieve the outcome the government wants to see, not by arbitrarily trying to enforce existing laws.
We may see more skeletons being dragged out of Apple’s closet as the lawsuit progresses, but I don’t see any of them affecting the outcome in any meaningful manner.
Stay tuned — I’m sure they will top that quote as the trial progresses.
Isn’t Epic essentially challenging the basis for which any for profit company operates?
Wasn’t there some news report that said something like 8% of their revenue? Maybe That was just fortniTe.
Respectfully, this reads as some kind of fanfic born out of wishful thinking.
For starters, antitrust in the US and antitrust in the EU are almost two entirely different beasts. In the US the focus lies more on healthy competition between businesses and in the EU the consumer's benefit is prioritized.
It is true that in the EU some companies have been found to be colluding, some telcos come to mind. Imperative there is the word "found". Anyone can claim whatever in court, the challenge lies in proving it. And the fact that Epic hasn't said a single word about collusion, leaves me to think that no evidence of this was found during discovery, or at least not the kind of evidence that would've helped Epic (more on that later).
Until such proof surfaces, "industry practices" or rather, the fact that the percentage of the commission is industry standard, is one of many insurmountable hurdles Epic has to overcome. Frankly, I don't see how.
As for Apple saying that the 30% is solely for the cost of the App Store according to you, that is not true, but I'll eagerly await your source. What Apple's former CEO did say nearly 13 years ago, was that they hope it'll cover the cost for the App Store. I think I don't need to explain why a statement by a former CEO, who is not alive anymore, about the motivation for a business decision, loses relevance over time. Companies change business strategies all the time.
Others have already pointed out that your numbers don't seem to line up with reality so I'll skip on that, but let me at least reaffirm that antitrust legislation, in fact, doesn't prohibit a company from making or seeking a profit. Your notion that they can only break even, lest they risk being found in violation of antitrust, is, again respectfully, ridiculous.
Edit: Almost forgot about the "more on that later" promise above. You want to see collusion? Does Tim Sweeny emailing Microsoft's Phil Spencer to give him a heads up on an opportunity to profit off of count?
Edit: Fixed some language and grammar.
Attachments
Last edited:
Obviously not. They are challenging what they see as anti competitive behaviour from a monopolist. I’m sure you know that.
Some people are beyond arguing with because their devotion to the Apple cause is beyond any rational thought.
If they lose it will be at the appellate level. This judge has been pretty consistent at every hearing where this is going.
Like many here, I used to be a big supporter of the app store approach. Make sure that you know the app is safe and you have somewhere to go with an issue. Today even though I don't have to, I shop for Mac software on the Mac app store not the internet itself.
Well, I just recently had an experience that started me thinking maybe the app store idea has some flaws in it. I play a game that has a number of in-app purchase items including event passes (gets you extra rewards for doing well in an event). I recently purchased such a pass successfully (I got a receipt for the pass from Apple). Later the same day I went into the game again and no event pass. I repurchased the event pass (and got another email receipt for it from Apple) both on the same day. I contacted the game publisher and they said sorry this happened but we can't refund you have to go to App Store support for that. After digging around a bit, I found out how you request a refund and went ahead and did so. They don't even give you a place to explain why you want the refund. After about 24 hours I got an email saying my request had been updated. I went to the system and saw that they rejected the refund request. No explanation, just no refund. They did give me a chance to ask for a review and I did so. There they give you a chance to explain what happened and I did so. 24 hours later, I get a notice of activity on my review. Go to the system and find out that the review also rejected my refund request. Again, no explanation. Now I have no choice but to eat the $32 that I am out.
I can't help but think that Apple has little or no impulse to grant a refund while the game publisher would have more interest since they would want to keep me as an active player in their game (I have been doing this game for years). Apple clearly has a much different approach from Amazon which is quick to refund if you have an issue and is the reason that I deal with them a lot. Apple either needs to up their customer support for App Store purchases or maybe they need to step aside at some point and let customers make in app purchases direct from the publisher. They don't seem to be providing much service in this case. Just collecting money.
Well, I just recently had an experience that started me thinking maybe the app store idea has some flaws in it. I play a game that has a number of in-app purchase items including event passes (gets you extra rewards for doing well in an event). I recently purchased such a pass successfully (I got a receipt for the pass from Apple). Later the same day I went into the game again and no event pass. I repurchased the event pass (and got another email receipt for it from Apple) both on the same day. I contacted the game publisher and they said sorry this happened but we can't refund you have to go to App Store support for that. After digging around a bit, I found out how you request a refund and went ahead and did so. They don't even give you a place to explain why you want the refund. After about 24 hours I got an email saying my request had been updated. I went to the system and saw that they rejected the refund request. No explanation, just no refund. They did give me a chance to ask for a review and I did so. There they give you a chance to explain what happened and I did so. 24 hours later, I get a notice of activity on my review. Go to the system and find out that the review also rejected my refund request. Again, no explanation. Now I have no choice but to eat the $32 that I am out.
I can't help but think that Apple has little or no impulse to grant a refund while the game publisher would have more interest since they would want to keep me as an active player in their game (I have been doing this game for years). Apple clearly has a much different approach from Amazon which is quick to refund if you have an issue and is the reason that I deal with them a lot. Apple either needs to up their customer support for App Store purchases or maybe they need to step aside at some point and let customers make in app purchases direct from the publisher. They don't seem to be providing much service in this case. Just collecting money.
Every time I’ve requested a refund I’ve gotten it. I do it by chat - never filled out a form.
Not a whole lot, I don’t think. Part of the reason why I think they felt it was worth going into this the way they did was understanding that, during the trial, their bottom line wouldn’t be hurt much.