Epic Games Wins 'Total Victory' in Google Play Store Dispute

[turbineseaplane]

The whole brick-and-mortar store to digital marketplace comparison generally falls apart. They're completely different business models with different benefits and restriction and limitations.

100% agree.
People really shouldn't use that particular example here.

 

[noraa]

I really want Valve to sue Epic for not allowing them to sell Steam games inside the Epic store. Or for Microsoft to sue Sony for not allowing the Xbox game store on the Playstation (or vice versa). Etc...

 

[GrassShark]

But they are similar in that they build a place for people to shop. They allow many companies to have shelf space to allow consumers to come consume while charging a fee to the companies to have the shelf space. So tell me again how they are different business models.

When you're that vague about it, then sure, they're basically the same. You could say a kids' bake sale and Spotify are similar — you give them money, they give you a thing — but once you look at any of the details, that falls apart. That was my whole point.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

I don't know why Epic doesn't have a lawsuit against Apple and Google at the same time.. its the same issue, hell if anything Google is way more open then Apple. I feel like if Google has to open things up, Apple should have to do the exact same..

Google’s case is different in that they force conditions on phones made by companies that are not named Google. That makes it similar to the Windows case in that it was Microsoft’s onerous demands on OEM’s that was the core of that issue.

Google’s actions affect companies beyond themselves. Apple ONLY affects goods/services they offer.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

Honest question, as I am clueless to Fotrnite. Can anyone operate a storefront and sell their own custom skins or whatever, or does Epic not make that possible? I did some searching and it seems vague.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

EDIT: I do think the Epic Games Store should absolutely be allowed to be installed via Safari. Apple has always tried to position the iPhone as being different from the Mac for privacy and security reasons, but I think it's a thin argument. I think it's inevitable that regulations will essentially force the iPhone to be as open as the Mac. It's already happened in the EU, and it seems inevitable in the US eventually.

There was literally an exploit for the Mac earlier this week or last week that did not affect iOS or iPadOS due to the enhanced security of iOS. It’s a fact of life with security, reduce the vectors for attack (as iOS/iPadOS does) and you reduce the vectors for exploit.

 

[transpo1]

Epic is such a trouble maker. I have such distaste for that company.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

I really want Valve to sue Epic for not allowing them to sell Steam games inside the Epic store. Or for Microsoft to sue Sony for not allowing the Xbox game store on the Playstation (or vice versa). Etc...

I don’t doubt that Epic will be coming after all of them eventually. Epic wants a precedent on the books saying that they should be able to offer a free app on an App Store and, if they handle their own payments, they don’t have to pay any commission. Once they have that, then they can offer Fortnite to the masses of Steam users without Valve seeing a cent.

They will be wondering why they didn’t speak up in this case (some wondering why they helped Epic)!

 

[AppliedMicro]

They allow many companies to have shelf space to allow consumers to come consume while charging a fee to the companies to have the shelf space. So tell me again how they are different business models.

Once the product has been delivered, the owner of the space doesn’t charge commission.

There was literally an exploit for the Mac earlier this week or last week that did not affect iOS or iPadOS due to the enhanced security of iOS. It’s a fact of life with security, reduce the vectors for attack (as iOS/iPadOS does) and you reduce the vectors for exploit

This has little do to with application stores.
Because application - including “store” applications can be downloaded, installed and used without using Apple’s store.

 

[CatalinApple]

Epic is such a trouble maker. I have such distaste for that company.

I totally understand you. I don't like Epic at all. If in a distant future Epic will file for bankruptcy and cease to exist, I won't miss it ever.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

As far as forcing the Play App availability in other app stores, not even sure what that means. If it just means being able to download the Google Play Store inside the Epic store, why would anyone do that? Unless they're planning to sell hardware with a different store preinstalled instead, like Amazon already does. I need more information. But I will say that sideloading Play apps on a device not "Play certified" is a security risk. People do it to Amazon Fire tablets because they trust Amazon not to be exfiltrating all their data. But if you sideload it on a random no-name tablet, that could be very risky.

I think I get it… there are some devices that don’t have the Play store because they don’t meet Google’s requirements. This would allow the Epic store to offer those devices the wide selection of Play apps (I think).

 

[Unregistered 4U]

But they are similar in that they build a place for people to shop. They allow many companies to have shelf space to allow consumers to come consume while charging a fee to the companies to have the shelf space. So tell me again how they are different business models.

They’re not different. It’s just so much of an “open and shut” case that now folks have simply taken to saying “it falls apart” or “people shouldn’t use that argument because I always get tied up in self-contradictions when I argue it”.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

This has little do to with application stores.
Because application - including “store” applications can be downloaded, installed and used without using Apple’s store.

The application store is an important part of the entire security picture. MacOS has allowances for users to install applications from outside the App Store. That is a vector for exploit. iOS/iPadOS does not have that vector, thus, they’re inherently more secure.

 

[Joe Rossignol]

There was literally an exploit for the Mac earlier this week or last week that did not affect iOS or iPadOS due to the enhanced security of iOS. It’s a fact of life with security, reduce the vectors for attack (as iOS/iPadOS does) and you reduce the vectors for exploit.

You're right, but (1) there's often tradeoffs with things and (2) I absolutely think Apple's biggest motivation for not opening up the iPhone like the Mac is money.

 

[AppliedMicro]

MacOS has allowances for users to install applications from outside the App Store

So does iOS.
It has had it for many years.

iOS/iPadOS does not have that vector, thus, they’re inherently more secure.

It does have that vector. It may be used less (due to Apple having more restrictive policies with regards to app signing). But it’s certainly not inherently more secure.

 

[Plutonius]

Not a big fan of Google, I am on Google side on this one Epic Games is bad for Gamers, people, and society #boycottepicgames #boycotttimwinney

It's only me but I have always refused to use the Epic store (even for free games).

 

[CocktailHour]

While Apple largely won the lawsuit that Epic Games levied against it back in 2020, Google hasn't been as lucky. Google today failed to win an appeal in the ongoing Epic Games v. Google case, handing another victory to Epic.

As noted by Reuters, a federal appeals court rejected Google's claim that the original court overseeing the antitrust case had made legal errors when finding in favor of Epic, which means Google will need to implement Play Store changes. Epic Games CEO Tim Sweeney said the company had scored a "total victory" in the appeal.

Epic Games first sued Google in 2020, right around the same time that it sued Apple. In 2023, a jury unanimously agreed that Google had abused its power by operating an app store monopoly and charging developers exorbitant fees. Google then appealed, leading to today's loss.

As a result of the Epic Games lawsuit, Google will be forced to allow Android users to download rival app stores from the Play Store. Google will also be required to make the Play app catalog available to competitors.

Sweeney says that the Epic Games Store for Android will be coming to the Google Play Store, but Google plans to appeal again.

Article Link: Epic Games Wins 'Total Victory' in Google Play Store Dispute

Wow. "Google will also be required to make the Play app catalog available to competitors." This surprises me.

 

[Padriac]

If Target was the only company that owned land for the state of New York and got to dictate where, when, and how Walmart could build their stores, what they could sell, and even whether or not Walmart could build a store, we would all agree that would be bad.

Apple in the case of the iPhone is the land owner. They control what other stores are allowed to operate and how they sell their goods or services, same with google for the most part.

Saying “just leave the iPhone” is like saying “just leave New York” in my target example.

Also there are stores within a store. Starbucks inside Target, Toys R Us inside Macys, Malls in general. I am dumbfounded why people advocate against consumer choice.

This analogy is completely flawed. Phones OSes aren’t public or finite or controlled by the federal govt.

What you’re describing would be more like if any company could make a new island appear from thin air and then declare that land an independent territory that people could choose to move to or not but the US govt suddenly decides to demand Walmarts must be allowed to open there solely because lots of people decide to move there on their own free will.

 

[mentaluproar]

I’m imagining a sort of internet folklore forming around Epic Games one day….

“yes, there used to be a big a powerful company everyone hated, but then Epic Games came along and sued them into oblivion.”

Seriously, I’m imaging a scenario where Epic goes after Oracle.

 

[TheDauterive]

ah so you can download a store within a store. just like how I can shop inside a Target inside a Walmart inside Amazon right? because that's what consumers really want: more complexity.

You get that it's not a "store within a store", right? The App Store is a store on a phone. If you add an Epic Store, then you have two stores on a phone, not a store in a store. (And if you open Safari and go to Amazon...well, I won't say anything more, because of the complexity and all. 😐)

 

[coachgq]

Once the product has been delivered, the owner of the space doesn’t charge commission.

This has little do to with application stores.
Because application - including “store” applications can be downloaded, installed and used without using Apple’s store.

When I buy a subscribe and save item like toothpaste from Amazon or any other company offering that type of savings program do you think Amazon isn’t getting a cut of that toothpaste cost every month when they reship it?

 

[coachgq]

When you're that vague about it, then sure, they're basically the same. You could say a kids' bake sale and Spotify are similar — you give them money, they give you a thing — but once you look at any of the details, that falls apart. That was my whole point.

So tell me where I’m wrong then. They both offer a store to buy stuff. And they keep a portion of the costs when someone buys through their store. (Your bake sale doesn’t count because they baked goods were presumably all made by one seller. Good try though)

 

[drrich2]

Apple has always tried to position the iPhone as being different from the Mac for privacy and security reasons, but I think it's a thin argument.

The level of user sophistication in the user bases of the 2 platforms may differ substantially. How many people with a smart phone have anti-malware software running on it? iPhones are numerous enough to be a bigger target than Macs and they are often used on outside wifi networks. While the practical difference is debatable, there is some degree of difference.

I am dumbfounded why people advocate against consumer choice.

Because we understand wanting something (such as consumer choice) and being morally entitled to have a company forced by government to give it to us are not the same thing.

There are things I wish Apple would do that I don't believe the government ought to force them to do.

 

[GrassShark]

So tell me where I’m wrong then. They both offer a store to buy stuff. And they keep a portion of the costs when someone buys through their store.

Brick and mortar stores stock limited space with inventory they generally buy up front or take on consignment. They generally have products you could buy anywhere (excluding some exclusives), and make deals with vendors to stock certain brands. They have fierce competition because there's generally not a constraint on where one is allowed to buy physical goods.

Digital marketplaces have essentially unlimited shelf space. They don't have to worry about what they stock because the goods are infinite, nor do they pay anything upfront. In fact, in the case of stores like the App Store, they even get to double dip, selling the exclusive means of producing the goods (SDK) as well and taking a commission on any sales of the app or sales made in the app. In the case of the App Store, there's also no competition, since if you have an iPhone, there's no where else to get iOS apps.

At a top level, they both sell things for money, but that's such a vague description as to be pointless. Dentists sell things for money too, but they're also not like a digital marketplace.

(Your bake sale doesn’t count because they baked goods were presumably all made by one seller. Good try though)

You could have just said you don't know how a bake sale works.

 

[teh_hunterer]

Why force them to host other app stores? Can’t apps be installed outside the Google Play Store? At this rate epic should be forced to allow Steam, Xbox PC, and Ubisoft Store to be downloaded from their store. And anyone who sells their game through epic should be allowed to advertise lower priced options via direct download or alternate stores in the epic store.

100%. Interesting that they don't also sue Nintendo for not allowing the Epic Store on Switch. Same with Microsoft and Sony.

As soon as you take their logic anywhere else in the industry it falls apart.