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but if friends/family use third party stores on their iPhones it weakens my privacy and security.
It doesn't.

My data gets shared without my consent.
It gets shared regardless of store.

Anyone that syncs his address book/contacts (containing your data) with any messenger app (read: everyone) "shares" your data with that service's operator.

It has got nothing to do with application stores. Apple carries tons of apps in its App Store that "nudge" (if not pressure) people to share their data - and your data, by proxy.

Anything I send them (photos, messages…) could be data mined by Apps on their end without my consent.
...just as it can be with apps obtained from Apple's App Store.
 
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It doesn't.


It gets shared regardless of store.

Anyone that syncs his address book/contacts (containing your data) with any messenger app (read: everyone) "shares" your data with that service's operator.

It has got nothing to do with application stores.

I'm really blown away by how little people understand about how exposed they already are, and have been for years, even when being all in on Apple products.
 
It doesn't.


It gets shared regardless of store.

Anyone that syncs his address book/contacts (containing your data) with any messenger app (read: everyone) "shares" your data with that service's operator.

It has got nothing to do with application stores. Apple carries tons of apps in its App Store that "nudge" (if not pressure) people to share their data - and your data, by proxy.


...just as it can be with apps obtained from Apple's App Store.

Ridiculous.

You’re basically saying we should do away with end-to-end encryption since the person at the other end can share your data.

As a developer for iOS/Android I can think of countless ways to gain access to data via a third party store that I couldn’t get away with in The App Store. The fact nobody in this thread has mentioned any simply tells me there aren’t any developers here.
 
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I'm really curious though, everyone is all for the judge to pry open Apple's app store when Apple did nothing wrong? They have been upfront about their business model from the beginning and users have the choice of choosing another provider Samsung or Google if they so chose and Apple is not a monopoly in the market. This was proven in court.

But now that its Google that is being required to be open since they actually violated anti-trust everyone is on Google's side and want the ruling reversed, i don't get it?? Why advocate for Google when they're the ones that actually violated anti trust and are anti-consumer? Am i missing something?
 
Ridiculous.

You’re basically saying we should do away with end-to-end encryption since the person at the other end can share your data.
Nonsense.

End-to-end encryption has got nothing with choice of application store (or other download/installation method).

The fact nobody in this thread has mentioned any simply tells me there aren’t any developers here.
Appeal to authority (your "authority" as a self-proclaimed "developer") does not on its own make a convincing argument.

As a developer for iOS/Android I can think of countless ways to gain access to data via a third party store that I couldn’t get away with in The App Store.
It's all a matter of policy.
It's not a technical matter at all.

And you don't get access to data "via a third party store".
You get it through your apps.

Possibly apps that Apple wouldn't allow or keep on their store.
But again: That's merely a matter of policy.

Other application stores can employ even stricter policies for app developersß apps, protecting users even more and better than Apple claims to do.
Some of them may very well be incentivised to do so, given that they're at a competitive disadvantage against Apple to begin with (due to not being bundled with iOS devices).
 
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Nonsense.

End-to-end encryption has got nothing with choice of application store (or other download/installation method).


Appeal to authority (your "authority" as a self-proclaimed "developer") does not on its own make a convincing argument.


It's all a matter of policy.
It's not a technical matter at all.

And you don't get access to data "via a third party store".
You get it through your apps.

Possibly apps that Apple wouldn't allow or keep on their store.
But again: That's merely a matter of policy.

Other application stores can employ even stricter policies for app developersß apps, protecting users even more and better than Apple claims to do.
Some of them may very well be incentivised to do so, given that they're at a competitive disadvantage against Apple to begin with (due to not being bundled with iOS devices).

Are you a developer? We can have a technical discussion on the matter. If not, find another developer on MR and we can debate the issue.

Just because you don’t understand coding for iOS devices and the APIs Apple had to create to allow third party stores in the DMA doesn’t mean issues don’t exist.

Has nothing to do with a “logical fallacy”. You just don’t like what I have to say and are desperately trying to manufacture an argument that suits your viewpoint.
 
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I'm really blown away by how little people understand about how exposed they already are, and have been for years, even when being all in on Apple products.

You're not understanding this well. The "security theater" works. If you intentionally lie/violate on the privacy nutrition labels, you'll get banned from the App Store so developers generally will want to avoid this. Companies that don't have the cash pile that Epic has wouldn't just violate the terms like Epic did.
 
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But now that its Google that is being required to be open since they actually violated anti-trust everyone is on Google's side and want the ruling reversed, i don't get it?? Why advocate for Google when they're the ones that actually violated anti trust and are anti-consumer? Am i missing something?
It's not specific anti-competitive behavior allegations people necessarily object to, but the 'remedies' the court inflicts. If someone asserts Google ought not to be allowed to covertly manipulate to undermine competing app. stores, yes, I don't think many here would oppose that. So when you see defense of Google against a particularly penalty, it may be a case of '2 wrongs don't make a right.'

But while Google has its critics here, so too does Epic Games. At least Google, whatever its faults, gave us search, Google Docs, Chrome, Google Classroom, Google Drive, Android, branded smart phones and tablets, and Epic Games...gave us what, Fortnight? Which is a slick free to play first person shooter, but really, for what looks like a 'one trick pony' they seem to cause an awful lot of drama.

I think this might sum it up; some people think Google out to quit 'cheating' behind the scenes but that the court shouldn't empower Epic Games to 'rob' Google.
 
You're right, but (1) there's often tradeoffs with things and (2) I absolutely think Apple's biggest motivation for not opening up the iPhone like the Mac is money.
Yes, the tradeoff is higher security for iPad/iOS and that higher security drives users to feel more comfortable using them such that they tell other folks that may prefer higher security (with the tradeoff of fewer features) and those people become repeat customers that also tell their friends which means Apple makes huge amounts of money by having a product more secure than macOS (as a tradeoff for not having some of macOS’s features).
 
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It does have that vector. It may be used less (due to Apple having more restrictive policies with regards to app signing). But it’s certainly not inherently more secure.
There is a “download from a website and install on your device” vector and there’s a “use developer tools” vector. Two separate vectors. macOS has both. iOS has one. As a result of the reduction of the vector, iOS is more secure. I understand people may not like to recognize that iOS is more secure because they like to draw a false equivalency between macOS and iOS, but, yes, iOS is more secure by default.
 
100%. Interesting that they don't also sue Nintendo for not allowing the Epic Store on Switch. Same with Microsoft and Sony.

As soon as you take their logic anywhere else in the industry it falls apart.
They’re waiting for a ruling that allows them to take that action. They don’t have one yet. IF anyone gives them one, it’s insane to think that Epic wouldn’t take that opportunity to put their App Store in front of as many consumers as possible as quickly as possible.
 
There is a “download from a website and install on your device” vector and there’s a “use developer tools” vector. Two separate vectors. macOS has both. iOS has one. As a result of the reduction of the vector, iOS is more secure. I understand people may not like to recognize that iOS is more secure because they like to draw a false equivalency between macOS and iOS, but, yes, iOS is more secure by default.
That fact that this is even being debated is mind-blowing to me. Just say "While they exist, I think the risks to users are acceptable" or "The benefits developers get from allowing sideloading outweigh the harms to users."

But to argue that iOS isn't more secure than MacOS? Or that there is no downside to opening up? Or that the safety/security arguments are FUD because they personally don't have malware on their Mac? Just crazy.
 
I am puzzled why people need to involve a judge to fix their mistake in doing zero research before moving.
LITERALLY. :) Everyone with a device in their possession and they don’t like what it does, the company didn’t force them, didn’t poke them with a pointed stick, to purchase it. They just said, “Hey, wanna buy this?” If they have certain requirements that a device should have and they IGNORED their requirements and bought it anyway, well, they shouldn’t have ignored their requirements.
 
There is a “download from a website and install on your device” vector and there’s a “use developer tools” vector. Two separate vectors. macOS has both. iOS has one
iOS has that too. You can download and install apps from a website - and it has has been abused.
The enterprise eligibility is merely a mitigation, if you look at it from an “attack vector” perspective.
 
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These comparisons of the google/android ecosystem to land is funny. We are talking about the internet. The land is infinite and android is not locked down like iOS. Epic can make their app store available anywhere else they'd like. Google should not be forced to put Epic's store within Google's own store.
The only difference is that Google has done the work that has allowed people to feel comfortable buying from them. So much so, that given a choice between buying from Google Play OR reducing the security of their device to buy from somewhere else, most of them decide to just buy from Google Play.

Epic doesn’t want to put their store out there then go through the YEARS and YEARS of work that’s required to make people trust their store. They also don’t want to release hardware, with a custom designed OS that can run their applications. Because those would be hard. They want to take advantage of others years of trials, successes AND failures, without paying for it.
 
So Epic sues Apple and Google for the exact same reason, monopoly of their app store. Apple wins but Google loses. How Google opperates it's app store is no different to how Apple run's it's app store but a jury finds Google guilty of a monopoly on it's app store but yet a jury found Apple not guilty of running a monopoly on it's app store. Just goes to show that jury's can be biased towards Apple.
Apple’s App Store only runs on an Apple OS that only runs on Apple hardware. Google’s play store does NOT only run on a Google OS that only runs on Google produced hardware.
 
People compare the hypothetical side-loading they hope to see on iOS devices to side-loading app.s on Mac, but that's a poor comparison because Macs are a small target for malware type attacks due to being a low % of the personal computer market.

The proper comparator is side-loading on a Windows PC.

For years, people who used a Windows PC on the Internet without 'anti-virus' software were seen as risk taking fools, but it happened. Eventually Microsoft bundled Windows Defender to provide at least basic protection, and it was seen as better than nothing but you really ought to get a stand alone anti-malware app. (e.g.: Norton, McAfee, Bit Defender, etc...).

Before anybody tells me you can get good free Windows antivirus software, I tried that before, and the frequent, persistent pestering ads to sow fear/uncertainty/doubt to upgrade to their paid version were miserable to deal with.

So malware wasn't Microsoft's fault, but they had to deal with it, and end users still needed to deal with it themselves. PCs are often sold with a 'free trial' of such hoping to rope us into buying subscription fees for years, and have you seen the default a Norton comprehensive protection plan can hit an ignorant newbie for? Ridiculous, compared to the cost of the Windows notebook it came on.

iOS is a big market, high visibility player very likely to have owner financial info. on it. Big target for malware! So, some questions...

1.) What is the computing sophistication level of the average iPhone vs. Windows user? Concepts like trojans, phishing, spoofing e-mail addresses, etc...?

2.) Any idea what % of iPhone (and for that matter Android) phones have anti-malware software?

3.) How many people already paying for it bother to put it on their iOS device? For example, if you have BitDefender on your Mac, your package might include free protection for your iPhone. But how many devices? Did you do it? How many users wouldn't?

With this talk about opening up platforms, increasing competition and hypothetically lowering prices, beware the Law on Unintended Consequences, least you...

1.) Create a more fertile playing field for malware.
2.) Cause more malware headaches for users due to malware proliferation.
3.) Create a de factor necessity to pay for anti-malware packages with subscriptions into perpetuity.

My point is, if you think tearing down the 'wall' of Apple's iOS walled garden is going to help end users overall, don't be so sure.
 
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I'm really curious though, everyone is all for the judge to pry open Apple's app store when Apple did nothing wrong? They have been upfront about their business model from the beginning and users have the choice of choosing another provider Samsung or Google if they so chose and Apple is not a monopoly in the market. This was proven in court.

But now that its Google that is being required to be open since they actually violated anti-trust everyone is on Google's side and want the ruling reversed, i don't get it?? Why advocate for Google when they're the ones that actually violated anti trust and are anti-consumer? Am i missing something?
There are a lot of folks that simply bought the wrong device not understanding what it did and what its limitations were. The simple solution, you and I know, is to buy the device that does what you want it to do. These folks, they don’t think like that. Their parents probably fixed all their problems for them when they were younger and now, that their parents can’t fix this, they see the government as their parent that needs to fix their prior bad decision. :)

Hopefully they eventually get a device that allows them the feature set they feel they are deserved. Of course, that’s assuming that what they want is even profitable enough for anyone to make. If not, then they can get their government parent to produce a new government hardware platform that absolutely won’t have any backdoors! :D
 
iOS has that too. You can download and install apps from a website - and it has has been abused.
The enterprise eligibility is merely a mitigation, if you look at it from an “attack vector” perspective.
I enjoyed seeing this reply grow and grow. :)

There is a “download from a website and install on your device” vector and there’s a “use the Enterprise Developer Program” vector (strange how that word “developer” is still in there!). Of the two vectors, iOS only provides one. As a result, the system is more secure than any other system that DOES allow “download from a website and install on your device”.
 
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There is a “download from a website and install on your device” vector and there’s a “use the Enterprise Developer Program” vector (strange how that word “developer” is still in there!). Of the two vectors, iOS only provides one. As a result, the system is more secure than any other system that DOES allow “download from a website and install on your device”.
iOS does allow "download from a website and install on your device".
Yes, you have to "trust" the developer upon doing so - just as you have to do when you install a device driver on macOS.

Those Facebook Research users that got paid small gift cards for market research didn't work for large enterprises.
 
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The 30% are merely transaction costs.
And consumers benefit from lower transaction costs.
No one benefits from high transaction costs (higher than the cost to provide that service) - except the ones who charge them.

Plenty of people seem to be willing to sell their games through the steam App Store, despite it charging them a similar 30%. You would think that the recent push to delist certain games with sensitive content would be less controversial given that anybody could just host and download them somewhere else.

The Epic games store charges a lower commission (to my understanding), and way fewer people utilise it. Even fewer developers host their game on their own website where they could on paper keep 100% of game revenue.

And nobody seems to be willing to criticise game consoles like Nintendo Switch and Sony for similarly charging developers 30%. There’s a certain delicious irony when I see gamers push for Steam to be made available on all platforms, not seemingly realise that in trying to overthrow the current world order, they are directly helping to entrench one far worse.

Dismissing the 30% cut that these app stores take as “mere transaction costs” seem to overlook the value these platforms (iOS / android / Steam) have added in growing the overall pie for everybody. Apple, for example, has aggregated the best customers in the world, they make the purchase process extremely streamlined for users, and the end result is that developers make more money compared to say, Android despite the latter’s larger user base.

“High” transaction costs to me isn’t necessarily a bad thing in itself, it’s what both parties get out of this relationship that matters.
 
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