Epic vs. Apple Takes a Twist As 35 US States and Department of Justice Weigh in to Back 'Fortnite' Maker

[Sophisticatednut]

Except where the commission is 30% or 15%.

Indeed, luckily there is other options like G2A

Jailbreak mostly always works, except when it doesn’t. Same as political pressure.

Indeed and we are free to do both to enact changes we desire.

Except for those who voiced opinions on Macrumors or associates or friends or family how do you know what the opinion of remainder of the hundreds of millions of customers are. Or is this if only person has a negative opinion conversation?

No from official statistics. Outside of the logical conclusion that it’s unlikely any large majority is 100% satisfied without any desire for some improvement.

Right don’t know want regulatory pressure brought apple to open up mail and safari, but doing beyond that iOS doesn’t let one replace every default app.

We should have more. Such as replace the atrocious Apple Maps with google maps instead( until apple gets it act together for me anyway)
Clock, calculator and notes etc would be nice to be able to replace

 

[I7guy]

Indeed, luckily there is other options like G2A

True, always options.

Indeed and we are free to do both to enact changes we desire.

True, and vote for who represents us.

No from official statistics. Outside of the logical conclusion that it’s unlikely any large majority is 100% satisfied without any desire for some improvement.

No, the ACSI is only an official statistic of the ACSI. There are JD Powers and others. The conclusion still is one doesn't know how 100s of millions are thinking, since they are not polled. The ACSI uses a proprietary algorithm which they do not expose to the public and hence their brew is akin to a beef stew.

We should have more. Such as replace the atrocious Apple Maps with google maps instead( until apple gets it act together for me anyway)
Clock, calculator and notes etc would be nice to be able to replace

Sure and in the meantime apps can coexist even if they can't be replaced.

 

[Abazigal]

We should have more. Such as replace the atrocious Apple Maps with google maps instead( until apple gets it act together for me anyway)
Clock, calculator and notes etc would be nice to be able to replace

It’s ironic that we got Apple maps precisely because Google tried to screw Apple (and us users by extension) over by withholding mapping data in the first place.

Apple is smart to not rely on a competitor for a critical part of their infrastructure, and those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[Abazigal]

Go for it, vote with your dollars. Apparently it’s hyper effective.

I have no illusions about the extent of my influence, me being just one customer and all, but I do my part.

 

[huge_apple_fangirl]

Probably negotiated, considering Sony actually does some work. But generally it seems to hover at 5%~

Indeed like jailbreaking or putting political pressure.

Absolutely, still there are more online stores that aren’t owned by Sony

Not that sell games that work on PlayStation. Same deal as with iOS.

No, people who care about it jailbreak their devices if they think iOS is better.

Right, but Apple could implement lots of customization without opening up iOS. Of course, anyone who wants that customization is free to jailbreak.

Of course, I will still do my best to make them change to what I believe to be a better iPhone.

I understand that you want sideloading. I think it would be nice to sideload too. But the fact that Apple bans it doesn’t make them an illegal monopoly.

I have made my choice and bought an iPhone and modified it to fit my needs, and will try to influence apple to change it.

Why should I be angry at a company I don’t buy from?

I get that. I guess Apple’s drawbacks are less than Android’s.

I have

Good to hear. I hope they implement those changes soon.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

True, always options.

The best, and hopefully apple will provide this is some way

True, and vote for who represents us.

And make apple change to the better

No, the ACSI is only an official statistic of the ACSI. There are JD Powers and others. The conclusion still is one doesn't know how 100s of millions are thinking, since they are not polled. The ACSI uses a proprietary algorithm which they do not expose to the public and hence their brew is akin to a beef stew.

Well then do you have statistics showing anything else? JDpowers 2017 or the Harris poll 2021 with open methodology. They all seem to hover at the same level.

Sure and in the meantime apps can coexist even if they can't be replaced.

And hopefully change.

It’s ironic that we got Apple maps precisely because Google tried to screw Apple (and us users by extension) over by withholding mapping data in the first place.

Google didn’t screwup anything. Their contract ended and apple wasn’t willing to pay to have it included. Apple Maps unfortunately missing some basic features to replace google

Apple is smart to not rely on a competitor for a critical part of their infrastructure, and those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Apple aren’t smart when they replace critical parts with even worse product so people actively remove it to download something else

Not that sell games that work on PlayStation. Same deal as with iOS.

I challenge you to go on to G2A ant tell me they don’t sell PlayStation games

Right, but Apple could implement lots of customization without opening up iOS. Of course, anyone who wants that customization is free to jailbreak.

They could but generally won’t do it, it’s just a recent workaround with the shortcut app that allows it.

I understand that you want sideloading. I think it would be nice to sideload too. But the fact that Apple bans it doesn’t make them an illegal monopoly.

Never said they where illegal. I generally would rather have the option to pay developers more and give apple as little as possible such as competing in app payment options with little to no commission to apple as I don’t want to incentivize apples App Store considering how bad it have become. I can always jailbreak for other things

I get that. I guess Apple’s drawbacks are less than Android’s.

For me they are vastly smaller but still bad compared to android being a literal mess

Good to hear. I hope they implement those changes soon.

We will se. The EU commission is moving it’s regulatory muscles so we can hope.

 

[PC_tech]

But hasn't the judge declared Apple actually isn't a Monopoly?
And how does Apple fit into the definition of Monopoly?
And if Apple fits into a definition of Monopoly for software on a device and OS it makes itself, then how does any supplier of parts that augment it's own hardware manage to exist (Canon printers, Nintendo consoles etc..).

No, she didn’t….

 

[Abazigal]

Apple aren’t smart when they replace critical parts with even worse product so people actively remove it to download something else

I call it leverage. It took Apple booting Google Maps from iOS 5 to get Google to release their own maps app for iOS, which is head and tails better than it ever was. Because Apple Maps continues to be the preinstalled default, Google knows they have to work even harder on improving their app so people have reason to use it, while consumers benefit from having a privacy-first choice if they do not wish to park any of their data with Google.

Either way, we win, regardless of whether we favour Apple or Google Maps. And this only works because Apple wields complete and absolute power over their ecosystem, to the point where they are able to dictate terms to another juggernaut like Google.

And this is why I am ultimately in favour of Apple retaining full control over the App Store as well. So they have the power to stand up to any foe no matter how strong.

 

[genovelle]

Well in Eastman Kodak the court ruled that Kodak violated the Sherman Act because it was a monopoly over the repair market for its own photocopiers. Although the key difference there is that Kodak started restricting the repair market after already selling its machines, whereas Apple has never allowed unapproved software on the iPhone- in fact it considers this restriction an advantage for consumers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/business/1992/06/09/antitrust-case-ruling-goes

Apple has not prevent jailbreaking since it became legal, they do not actively support it because it would be dumb to undermine your own business. Since they maintain these devices’ OS free of charge for years they have every right to minimize their cost of doing so and maximize their profitability, not competitors or any other companies for that matter.

 

[dk001]

Not that sell games that work on PlayStation. Same deal as with iOS.

...

Best Buy.
Game Stop.
Amazon.
Playstation Store.
Etc...

You can get Playstation games from a lot of places besides the PStore.

 

[genovelle]

I call it leverage. It took Apple booting Google Maps from iOS 5 to get Google to release their own maps app for iOS, which is head and tails better than it ever was. Because Apple Maps continues to be the preinstalled default, Google knows they have to work even harder on improving their app so people have reason to use it, while consumers benefit from having a privacy-first choice if they do not wish to park any of their data with Google.

Either way, we win, regardless of whether we favour Apple or Google Maps. And this only works because Apple wields complete and absolute power over their ecosystem, to the point where they are able to dictate terms to another juggernaut like Google.

And this is why I am ultimately in favour of Apple retaining full control over the App Store as well. So they have the power to stand up to any foe no matter how strong.

I agree except the maps on iphone were not Google maps to begin with. They were Apple designed with Google’s mapping technology. That’s why they always looked and functioned different.

The dynamic you describe has worked on the Mac as well. Microsoft was able to threaten Apple with pulling Office products to gain access to Apple IP that allowed them to copy the Mac OS in Windows. Microsoft held power over Apple, but it was removed when Apple created Pages, Numbers, and Keynote a made them free across devices.

Now Microsoft knows that Apple has a product good enough for most people and the resources to invest heavily to make it into a head to head competitor if they needed to.

 

[genovelle]

Exactly they don’t give a $%#!* for customers and devs, it’s all just about money by anticompetitive behavior, and now they has been caught in flagrante.

Apple is a business not a charity designing and supporting multi-billion dollar platforms for others to profit of for and them. If they are investing in it they are expecting to make a minimum of 30-40% profit on it. Anything else would be a drag on their profitability and hence a liability and subject to get axed.

 

[genovelle]

Best Buy.
Game Stop.
Amazon.
Playstation Store.
Etc...

You can get Playstation games from a lot of places besides the PStore.

These are physical games that developers pay huge sums to participate and license the right to make. The prices are $50 and up for many I just looked at and Sony is controlling the price. Even though it’s being sold elsewhere. 3rd party games won’t work as far as I know of and they are not making PS5 games compatible with PS3 and PS4 from what I saw on Best Buy. So their model is more restrictive than Apple’s.

 

[genovelle]

We already have a big movement about that. It’s known as right to repair movement pushing bills in almost every state.

And guess who is working hard against it? Apple and Taylor is against it so they can continue to make money on their repairs and service fees. By claiming it’s dangerous or copyrighted information that shouldn’t be shared with other people

Apple has a bigger issue at hand and that is black market devices and clones. They are also supporting and updating the OS platform these devices run on every year free of charge for half a decade or more after purchase which they could go back to charging for upgrades profitability wanes.

As for repairs, introducing a bunch of untrained people to deal with volatile batteries is a recipe for disaster that would tarnish apple’s reputation as soon as one of these yahoos gets blown up or worse, the device owner dies in a fire from an Apple device caused by a bad repair. Of course the law suits will target apple.

 

[genovelle]

Well, that's because usually users has no notion about the consequences that Apples and Googles monopoly/duopoly has. These are rulings that will affect the present and also the next 20/30 years, children and even unborn will be affected.

Rulings taken in the U.S. will affect the rest of world , and vise versa, rulings taken in the EU will affect the U.S. Apple HQ is in the U.S., but they are an international Company and will have to play the rules of many countries, they will have to apply to the common denominator of all these rulings. They could try to break all these upcoming rulings apart per country, but this would be too complicated and just slow Apple completely down.

Antitrust rules does not only exist to protect customers, they also exist to keep the economy running, healthy and competitive for now and in the future.

What I or you want is not of significance here.

Anyway, I'm for sideloading, and for an overall healthy market competition.
I don't care much if Apple, Microsoft, Google, EPIC or any other company exists in 30 years from now, I just care that innovation keeps coming and that other companies incl. startups has a chance to dethrone Apple & Co. in the future.

Thanks to EPIC the Apple land started to slide, of course they also have personal interests, but overall this will have a positive impact to the market.

Side loading is a huge mess that will negatively impact those of us who will never do so. The profits from the platform get reinvested at a high rate and lends to the innovation you’ve seen over the last decade many of those innovations and technologies filtered back into the Mac which is fueling the current growth. That level of investment was not possible before iPhone.

Side loading creates a world where developers can use Apple’s technology but not compensate them, so investments will diminish and the App Store as we know it will cease to exist. It will be replaced by Apple One and Apple Arcade where Apple Either created or licenses apps that have exclusive access to the newest features and Private Apple APIs within IOS. They will offer an included year long trail with purchase and a single subscription that offers all of the Apps inside the platforms. There will be games in one and productivity and other apps housed in Apple One as it is now. It will just include select 3rd party apps that they may even partner with to give them the resources to compete with the likes of Microsoft and Epic.

The other problem is the billions of non tech users who have been protected for 15 years by Apple’s walled garden that the chose on purpose, will unknowingly be thrown to the wolves. Many will not be able to tell they are being dumped by a link to a 3rd party site with counterfeit apps designed to steal your identity and banking information if the site is mimicking the official Apple App Store. The problem is most Apple user trust Apple with their info for good reason.

Over a billion people freely gave them their credit card information to store. Forcing Apple to allow unvetted apps into that environment is flat out irresponsible.

 

[genovelle]

I think it’s telling that all the complaints we have heard thus far are from larger developers. Not a squeak from consumers. Perhaps companies like epic and Spotify are well aware that consumers don’t really dislike closed apps ecosystems and this is all just one giant ploy to wrest control of Apple’s ecosystem away from them.

In short, it’s everything to do with enriching themselves and nothing to do with benefiting the end user at all.

Maybe it’s time the consumers who like the iOS App Store model for what it is stand up and tell these companies just what we think of their pitiful little rebellion.

It’s also telling that significant portions of both Epic and Spotify are owned by the Chinese company Tencent. Who happens to also be big into SmartPhones

 

[huge_apple_fangirl]

Side loading creates a world where developers can use Apple’s technology but not compensate them, so investments will diminish and the App Store as we know it will cease to exist. It will be replaced by Apple One and Apple Arcade where Apple Either created or licenses apps that have exclusive access to the newest features and Private Apple APIs within IOS.

Conveniently, the Open App Markets Act that mandates sideloading also bans Apple from having private APIs at all!
Can't think of any way that could end up compromising security or reducing Apple's incentives to create new features.

 

[vipergts2207]

Conveniently, the Open App Markets Act that mandates sideloading also bans Apple from having private APIs at all!
Can't think of any way that could end up compromising security or reducing Apple's incentives to create new features.

Sure, Apple can stop innovating if they would like the iPhone to cede market share to Android. Probably not a great idea considering where the bulk of Apple’s revenue comes from..

 

[huge_apple_fangirl]

Sure, Apple can stop innovating if they would like the iPhone to cede market share to Android. Probably not a great idea considering where the bulk of Apple’s revenue comes from..

I'm not saying they would stop entirely, just that it would reduce Apple's incentives. If Apple has to pay for a new features but can't keep them to itself, you don't think it would affect Apple's decisions at all? Especially given that Apple won't be given the right to use the devs' IP in return. Besides that and the obvious security issues (what if someone wants access to APIs that break the sandbox? Currently only Apple can do that), it just creates an environment for Apple in which any of their features becomes a potential legal liability. So many of Apple's most "magical" features rely on private APIs that only Apple gets to use and doesn't want others to access- would Apple refrain from developing them?

 

[threesixty360]

Import difference is one only provide their own service, the other provide their services alongside third party providers in their system.

And still canon printers aren’t allowed to prevent aftermarket inc cartridges to be used in EU

if you can hack an iPhone its not illegal for you to put software on it. Cydia App Store isn't illegal.
The issue would be Apple making special provision for third party stores to exist on their OS.
Canon are not legally forced to allow third parties to make accessories, people just do it. I think there's a big difference there.

Also, are you infringing IP in making third party accessories etc.
There was a case years ago of Atari reverse engineering Nintendo's NES system so they could be their own games on the Nintendo system (Tengen/Tetris was one I think). Atari lost the case.
In the USA there is precedent for companies have exclusive eco-systems where they are sole supplier.
The "monopoly" argument (of which Apple isn't) only applies when consumers have no choice and the market is distorted because of that lack of choice.

If I want to use Word on a mobile device I can buy devices from several manufacturers with various OS' (Amazon tablets, Samsung phones, One Plus, Apple etc..) I dont see anything a consumer couldn't meaningfully do if they didnt buy an Apple device.

No, she didn’t….

App Store monopoly claim rejected by federal court; Apple wins - 9to5Mac

A class action lawsuit alleging that Apple has an App Store monopoly has been rejected by a federal court judge, in a 34-page ruling ...

9to5mac.com

I think she kind of did…

 

[Maximara]

I agree except the maps on iphone were not Google maps to begin with. They were Apple designed with Google’s mapping technology. That’s why they always looked and functioned different.

The dynamic you describe has worked on the Mac as well. Microsoft was able to threaten Apple with pulling Office products to gain access to Apple IP that allowed them to copy the Mac OS in Windows. Microsoft held power over Apple, but it was removed when Apple created Pages, Numbers, and Keynote a made them free across devices.

Actually that power was removed Apple came out with AppleWorks/ClarisWorks which was bundled with all consumer-level Macintoshes sold by Apple from the late 1980s until its discontinuation in 2007. My first Mac in 1991 came with this program which thanks to MacLink (provided and upgradable to MacLinkPlus) was able to open a lot of formats including Word (see image below). By the time of its discontinuation OpenOffice (2002) and iWork (2005) were available.

 

[Maximara]

Conveniently, the Open App Markets Act that mandates sideloading also bans Apple from having private APIs at all!
Can't think of any way that could end up compromising security or reducing Apple's incentives to create new features.

The Open App Markets Act is in Committee which, as I keep telling people, see 90% of bills die.

Until a bill actually gets out of committee it doesn't mean jack. Raise the Wage Act (S.53; H.R. 603) case in point. Both went into committee (01/26/2021 and 01/28/2021 respectively) and I bet you didn't know/remembered they even existed. And how long has the public been crying for a raise in the Federal minimum wage?

If a bill to raise the Federal Minimum, which would effect near every working American every working day, has been sitting in committee for over year why do your precious (done in a Gollem voice) Open App Markets Act bill is actually going to get to a vote much less pass?

Heck, even Schoolhouse Rock (I'm Just a Bill) of the 1970s understood that the majority of bill's die in committee.

If bills that effects more people in the US than Apple have basically sat gathering dust then going into committee doesn't mean anything; only when they get out of committee do does a bill really matter. Also if there was really this public grounds swell for change Epic would not have hidden the fact it was behind that North Dakota bill which I might add died a pathetic in a 11-36 vote on the state Senate floor.

Arizona's House Bill 2005 just disappeared right before to a scheduled vote that could have sent it straight to the governor’s desk to be signed into law. (I suspect they didn't want a repeat of the North Dakota fiasco; "It seems committed members weren’t sure the bill could stand the trial of votes."). Minnesota House Bill HF 1184 went to its committee Feb 18, 2021 and hasn't been seen from since. New York Senate Bill S4822 went to committee February 12, 2021 and so far nothing. Illinois SB2311 different date same fate. (hey that rhymes )

North Dakota's bill went down in flames and Arizona's bill is the other only one that got through committee and yet it went walkabout because the state senate wasn't sure it could get the needed votes. After a while you have to ask who really wants this law - small developers or big multimillion dollar companies who want a free ride and are wrapping it in "helping the little guy"?

The 30% Fee Epic Is Fighting Apple Over Began With Nintendo means that Apple was simply following an existing console model so how consoles do it does count.

 

[laptech]

.......

I think she kind of did…

I think you need to go back and look at what you originaly wrote because you are wrong and pc_tech is right. When you and others are trying to defend Apple, you keep on using the line 'Apple is not a monopoly'. This is misinformation and skewers the debate because nothing of the sort was said in the court case with Epic. What the judge said was that the APP STORE is not a monopoly. So please, when your trying to defend Apple, please get the wording right.

 

[threesixty360]

I think you need to go back and look at what you originaly wrote because you are wrong and pc_tech is right. When you and others are trying to defend Apple, you keep on using the line 'Apple is not a monopoly'. This is misinformation and skewers the debate because nothing of the sort was said in the court case with Epic. What the judge said was that the APP STORE is not a monopoly. So please, when your trying to defend Apple, please get the wording right.

Context is everything. The context of the discussion is about the App Store and part of the case brought by Epic is that Apple had a monopoly in this context. So I don’t need to get the wording right here as everyone discussing this should be on topic in this thread as the context is obvious.

So again, the Judge ruled that Epic failed to define what or where Apple has a monopoly and thus the judge does not agree with their assertion. Apple is not and does not have a monopoly in any part of its business and especially with app stores as the court found.

Because, as I stated earlier, is It a monopoly to be sole supplier of products and services that augment a product and software that you already supply? Again, the examples are Console makers or printer manufactures. you could add all sorts of businesses to this list.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I call it leverage. It took Apple booting Google Maps from iOS 5 to get Google to release their own maps app for iOS, which is head and tails better than it ever was. Because Apple Maps continues to be the preinstalled default, Google knows they have to work even harder on improving their app so people have reason to use it, while consumers benefit from having a privacy-first choice if they do not wish to park any of their data with Google.

Either way, we win, regardless of whether we favour Apple or Google Maps. And this only works because Apple wields complete and absolute power over their ecosystem, to the point where they are able to dictate terms to another juggernaut like Google.

And this is why I am ultimately in favour of Apple retaining full control over the App Store as well. So they have the power to stand up to any foe no matter how strong.

It wasn’t apple kicking them off. Apple didn’t want to pay the royalties. And ironically Apple Maps have always been subpar and wouldn’t change if the store is open

Apple is a business not a charity designing and supporting multi-billion dollar platforms for others to profit of for and them. If they are investing in it they are expecting to make a minimum of 30-40% profit on it. Anything else would be a drag on their profitability and hence a liability and subject to get axed.

this would never happen for the simple fact the store exist only to make the iPhone more attractive. And they likely have 400% profit margins

As for repairs, introducing a bunch of untrained people to deal with volatile batteries is a recipe for disaster that would tarnish apple’s reputation as soon as one of these yahoos gets blown up or worse, the device owner dies in a fire from an Apple device caused by a bad repair. Of course the law suits will target apple.

This is literally an argument for right to repair. People right now repair it anyway it’s just way harder because of artificial barriers apple put up such as gluing the battery and not providing official parts makes it less safe as people use parts from broken iPhone or black market parts or

Side loading is a huge mess that will negatively impact those of us who will never do so. The profits from the platform get reinvested at a high rate and lends to the innovation you’ve seen over the last decade many of those innovations and technologies filtered back into the Mac which is fueling the current growth. That level of investment was not possible before iPhone.

ther is zero proof or reason to believe that if the App Store becomes less profitable that apple would not invest in it or their products. Apple is a hardware company, not a service company. The App Store sole existence is to sell more iPhones.

Side loading creates a world where developers can use Apple’s technology but not compensate them, so investments will diminish and the App Store as we know it will cease to exist.

Pure speculation. It doesn’t happen to the play store and windows store and we have no reason to believe it will happen to App Store. It benefits apple if developers make great apps to make people purchase more iOS devices.

It will be replaced by Apple One and Apple Arcade where Apple Either created or licenses apps that have exclusive access to the newest features and Private Apple APIs within IOS. They will offer an included year long trail with purchase and a single subscription that offers all of the Apps inside the platforms. There will be games in one and productivity and other apps housed in Apple One as it is now. It will just include select 3rd party apps that they may even partner with to give them the resources to compete with the likes of Microsoft and Epic.

Apple can’t stop third party apps from using private APIs, only deny them access to their store. And yet again pure speculation with no substance that App Store will be removed.

The other problem is the billions of non tech users who have been protected for 15 years by Apple’s walled garden that the chose on purpose, will unknowingly be thrown to the wolves. Many will not be able to tell they are being dumped by a link to a 3rd party site with counterfeit apps designed to steal your identity and banking information if the site is mimicking the official Apple App Store. The problem is most Apple user trust Apple with their info for good reason.

First this is already a problem, and it won’t increase if users still need to actively activate side loading. And side loading can still be other AppStores. Your talking like apple needs to babysit people

Over a billion people freely gave them their credit card information to store. Forcing Apple to allow unvetted apps into that environment is flat out irresponsible.

And billions of people gave away their credit card info to hundreds of other stores and companies as well. Perhaps apple should lower their standards on games like steam.

It’s my device not apples.