Epic vs. Apple Takes a Twist As 35 US States and Department of Justice Weigh in to Back 'Fortnite' Maker

[1284814]

Entrapment? Do you even know what that word means?

Entrapment? Do you even know what that word means?

what is the definition my good sir. or man’m

 

[I7guy]

indeed but vastly lower than the store royalty. Online is zero.

What is vastly and who is the arbiter of who is allowed to earn what commission?

I would dare to say 99% of iPhone users don't care or buy iPhones because of apple's business model.
People buy iPhones for it being simple to use, beautiful user interface, iMessage, compatibility with apples ecosystem etc. etc. but still hate that it's limited in what you can and can't do in the store. Just look how many custom skins exploded after apple allowed iOS shortcuts to be used to customize icons when they finally allowed it to be more open.

Sure, there are limitations in life. You work around them.

But this one negative thing is outweighed by other positive things. My point is that even hated companies with bad practices gets customers, simply for other parts outweighing the negatives sufficiently for consumers to still spend their money on them.

In your anecdotal opinion.

It is 100% not an endorsement when it's more complicated than that. For example, me i would never buy an Android phone simply how horrible the user interface is compared to iPhones, the great interoperability between iPhone, Apple Watch and the beats products as seamless.

Still the most negative thing I find is how locked down it is and have jailbroken my device ever since my first iPhone as i am sufficiently technologically literate compared to the masses. Unfortunately, apple have made it harder and harder to do for it to be worth the trouble right now.

I bet many people would love to be able to replace the official Mail, Apple Maps, calendar etc. with better 3d party solutions with complete integration, but can't for arbitrary reasons from apple.

What's stopping anyone from replacing apps? It's been a thing for a few releases.

 

[dk001]

…
What's stopping anyone from replacing apps? It's been a thing for a few releases.

Come on. Really?
As if I could take my default Apple Apps and replace them. Maybe a couple. Kind of.

 

[boss.king]

Come on. Really?
As if I could take my default Apple Apps and replace them. Maybe a couple. Kind of.

You actually can replace Safari, Mail, and maybe Music (I think). But yeah, for the most part you can't set default apps.

 

[Maximara]

Is there anything that is 100%? Voting with your $$$ is very effective as it sends a message, but is not absolute.

True. In fact companies have had the lawmakers give them sweetheart deals where taxpayer money is given to them even when the have insane profits: Americans Paid $228 Million For Activision Blizzard’s Tax Credits In 2018

 

[huge_apple_fangirl]

indeed but vastly lower than the store royalty. Online is zero.

If you buy a game from Sony's online store they absolutely get a cut.

I would dare to say 99% of iPhone users don't care or buy iPhones because of apple's business model.
People buy iPhones for it being simple to use, beautiful user interface, iMessage, compatibility with apples ecosystem etc. etc. but still hate that it's limited in what you can and can't do in the store. Just look how many custom skins exploded after apple allowed iOS shortcuts to be used to customize icons when they finally allowed it to be more open.

People wanting more customization doesn't mean they want more stores. The two are unrelated. And of course, those who truly care about customization or sideloading have Android.

But this one negative thing is outweighed by other positive things. My point is that even hated companies with bad practices gets customers, simply for other parts outweighing the negatives sufficiently for consumers to still spend their money on them.

Apple is not a hated company. Apple is also not obligated to make a product you want. iPhones don't have alternative stores- that's a disadvantage (some would say it's an advantage). Since we have a free market, you are free to buy a device with different tradeoffs. Of course, instead of getting angry at Apple for failing to open up the iPhone, you could be angry at all the Android manufacturers who have utterly failed to compete with Apple in UI, ecosystem, SoC, or battery life.

I bet many people would love to be able to replace the official Mail, Apple Maps, calendar etc. with better 3d party solutions with complete integration, but can't for arbitrary reasons from apple.

You can replace the default Mail app now. Maybe send feedback to Apple about this? If enough people care about this feature maybe Apple will change its position.

 

[Maximara]

Is it a slippery slope, tho? I think it's pretty much a very well defined slope. I personally don't buy into the entire security stuff apple is pleading here. That's not my argument. But if I can force apple to run arbitrary software on their hardware, I can force Sony to run arbitrary software on their hardware as well, which would essentially kill the business model of pretty much every game console. You can discuss if that is a good or a bad thing, but it will sure as hell both disincentivize manufacturers from making them in the first place and drive costs for the hardware to at least twice of what they cost now, more if they actually want to make enough profit to warrant putting in the effort to make new consoles every few years.

Again this is Epic's dream - one app that will allow all the software on it to run on any platform be it from "OS App Store, the Android Google Play marketplace, different stores on Xbox, PlayStation, and Nintendo Switch, and then Microsoft Store and the Mac App Store" 'Epic's plan to clean up that confusion is to come up with a system enabling users "to buy software in one place, knowing that they'd have it on all devices and all platforms."'

One App to Rule them all - that is the Dream and that is Epic's goal and they hope they will be that one app.

 

[turbineseaplane]

You actually can replace Safari

Not with a replacement though…

Third party browsers on iOS are all the same browser at the core

 

[boss.king]

Again this is Epic's dream - one app that will allow all the software on it to run on any platform be it from "OS App Store, the Android Google Play marketplace, different stores on Xbox, PlayStation, and Nintendo Switch, and then Microsoft Store and the Mac App Store" 'Epic's plan to clean up that confusion is to come up with a system enabling users "to buy software in one place, knowing that they'd have it on all devices and all platforms."'

One App to Rule them all - that is the Dream and that is Epic's goal and they hope they will be that one app.

I think the biggest thing you're missing or maybe misunderstanding is that relatively few people are rooting for Epic to actually get their every wish fulfilled. People are just hoping for the ability to install apps from sources other than the App Store. I haven't seen a single person in this thread hoping for a single universal app store run by Epic.

 

[boss.king]

Not with a replacement though…

Third party browsers on iOS are all the same browser at the core

Yeah, I know.

 

[I7guy]

I think the biggest thing you're missing or maybe misunderstanding is that relatively few people are rooting for Epic to actually get their every wish fulfilled. People are just hoping for the ability to install apps from sources other than the App Store. I haven't seen a single person in this thread hoping for a single universal app store run by Epic.

IMO, what a vocal minority are rooting for is for the government to come down heavy handed on Apple. What other people are rooting for is Apple wins the appeal and the legislation never passes. I can't see any following in a single universal app store, that probably wouldn't pass the supreme court anyway.

 

[huge_apple_fangirl]

I think the biggest thing you're missing or maybe misunderstanding is that relatively few people are rooting for Epic to actually get their every wish fulfilled. People are just hoping for the ability to install apps from sources other than the App Store. I haven't seen a single person in this thread hoping for a single universal app store run by Epic.

See, I feel like the two can't really be separated. It would be great if all the apps that are already in the Store stayed their, and then we also had the ability to easily download other apps that Apple doesn't let in the store. The problem is that once iOS is opened, the likes of Epic et al will be rushing to create their own stores with "exclusives" AKA apps that were previously accessible from the App Store. There are certainly arguments as to why Apple should not be able to keep the level of control of iOS that they do now, but let's be clear: allowing alternative app stores is highly unlikely to help consumers. At best the other app stores mainly fail like they did on Android, and Epic and the others go back to suing Apple for some other reason. At worst we get a fractured software model like we have on the desktop.

 

[dk001]

See, I feel like the two can't really be separated. It would be great if all the apps that are already in the Store stayed their, and then we also had the ability to easily download other apps that Apple doesn't let in the store. The problem is that once iOS is opened, the likes of Epic et al will be rushing to create their own stores with "exclusives" AKA apps that were previously accessible from the App Store. There are certainly arguments as to why Apple should not be able to keep the level of control of iOS that they do now, but let's be clear: allowing alternative app stores is highly unlikely to help consumers. At best the other app stores mainly fail like they did on Android, and Epic and the others go back to suing Apple for some other reason. At worst we get a fractured software model like we have on the desktop.

Emphasis is mine (/B/)

Do you have anything to back this up? If this was truly the case we would be seeing this willy-nilly all over the global Android landscape. But we aren't.

 

[Maximara]

But hasn't the judge declared Apple actually isn't a Monopoly?

Yes the judge did declare Apple wasn't a Monopoly in the relevant market.

And how does Apple fit into the definition of Monopoly?

Apple is the only provider of iOS app via their App Store for the iPhone/iPad. If that comes of as bag of hammers dumb... well that is the argument in a nutshell.

And if Apple fits into a definition of Monopoly for software on a device and OS it makes itself, then how does any supplier of parts that augment it's own hardware manage to exist (Canon printers, Nintendo consoles etc..).

And here as Hoeg says is where the rubber hits the road. No one arguing for the opening of the Apple iOS App Store has come up with a truly coherent explanation for this inconstancy.

 

[PlayUltimate]

What? The US. accused Microsoft of using legal and technical restrictions to limit competition. If the EULAs and walled gardens Apple has built don't bear a striking similarity to those practices, I don't know what does.

The big difference is that Microsoft imposed restrictions upon that platform. The iOS platform always had those restrictions.

 

[boss.king]

See, I feel like the two can't really be separated. It would be great if all the apps that are already in the Store stayed their, and then we also had the ability to easily download other apps that Apple doesn't let in the store. The problem is that once iOS is opened, the likes of Epic et al will be rushing to create their own stores with "exclusives" AKA apps that were previously accessible from the App Store. There are certainly arguments as to why Apple should not be able to keep the level of control of iOS that they do now, but let's be clear: allowing alternative app stores is highly unlikely to help consumers. At best the other app stores mainly fail like they did on Android, and Epic and the others go back to suing Apple for some other reason. At worst we get a fractured software model like we have on the desktop.

They absolutely can be separated. They're mutually exclusive. One is the option to install any apps you want (at your own risk, of course) and the other is more of what we have now, but from Epic rather than Apple.

As for devs pulling their apps, we've already seen Epic try to do precisely this. They pulled Fortnite from the Play Store on Android and distributed it themselves, only to have to put it back on the Play Store again not long after because almost no one was downloading it. To echo what many people are saying here, getting software from outside of the App Store is a niche want, something that most people simply won't bother with. Those who think that they can pull their app entirely to outside distribution and not take a massive hit or face being replaced entirely by a competitor are kidding themselves, but it should still be their choice.

I see this as more a feature for niche, trusted developers who want to do things that Apple doesn't permit (the likes of Little Snitch) or app categories that Apple flat-out is failing to provide for (think game streaming services). There are definitely going to be scams and bad actors, but the App Store already has scams and bad actors, so that's sort of a moot point. And again, this doesn't have to be a separate app store, it could be apps downloaded straight from a dev's site. MacOS apps from the web work just fine.

 

[huge_apple_fangirl]

Emphasis is mine (/B/)

Do you have anything to back this up? If this was truly the case we would be seeing this willy-nilly all over the global Android landscape. But we aren't.

Epic openly said they want to bring their store to iOS. On PC they have tried to compete with Steam by getting exclusives- not a stretch to think they might try to do the same on iOS. As I mentioned, they may fail, as they currently have on Android. But Epic is currently suing Google for allegedly crippling other stores. And if the Epic Games Store doesn't take off on iOS, they'll probably find a new reason to sue Apple.

 

[huge_apple_fangirl]

I see this as more a feature for niche, trusted developers who want to do things that Apple doesn't permit (the likes of Little Snitch) or app categories that Apple flat-out is failing to provide for (think game streaming services). There are definitely going to be scams and bad actors, but the App Store already has scams and bad actors, so that's sort of a moot point. And again, this doesn't have to be a separate app store, it could be apps downloaded straight from a dev's site. MacOS apps from the web work just fine.

I would like the ability to download apps from the web (with appropriate warnings). The problem is the actors pushing the hardest for Apple to open up (like Epic) don't particularly want this. They want to totally fragment the iOS app market with multiple app stores competing with each other, not one App Store + a few apps on the web for power users.

 

[boss.king]

I would like the ability to download apps from the web (with appropriate warnings). The problem is the actors pushing the hardest for Apple to open up (like Epic) don't particularly want this. They want to totally fragment the iOS app market with multiple app stores competing with each other, not one App Store + a few apps on the web for power users.

I may be mistaken, but are they pushing for multiple app stores to ship on the device? Or just that other app stores should be an option that you can access later. I see nothing wrong with them being an option, but I totally understand why they shouldn't be forced to ship on the device.

 

[dk001]

Epic openly said they want to bring their store to iOS. On PC they have tried to compete with Steam by getting exclusives- not a stretch to think they might try to do the same on iOS. As I mentioned, they may fail, as they currently have on Android. But Epic is currently suing Google for allegedly crippling other stores. And if the Epic Games Store doesn't take off on iOS, they'll probably find a new reason to sue Apple.

That’s a one off and someone trying a niche exception for a major developer.
Sorry but this does not make neither a trend nor proof. On Android (mobile device)

Update for spelling.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

What is vastly and who is the arbiter of who is allowed to earn what commission?

Probably negotiated, considering Sony actually does some work. But generally it seems to hover at 5%~

Sure, there are limitations in life. You work around them.

Indeed like jailbreaking or putting political pressure.

In your anecdotal opinion.

It’s not anecdotal, or do you seriously every customer have no negative opinion of products they enjoy?

What's stopping anyone from replacing apps? It's been a thing for a few releases.

Apple is. Only mail and reskinned safari after regulatory pressure

If you buy a game from Sony's online store they absolutely get a cut.

Absolutely, still there are more online stores that aren’t owned by Sony

People wanting more customization doesn't mean they want more stores. The two are unrelated. And of course, those who truly care about customization or sideloading have Android.

No, people who care about it jailbreak their devices if they think iOS is better.

Apple is not a hated company. Apple is also not obligated to make a product you want. iPhones don't have alternative stores- that's a disadvantage (some would say it's an advantage).

Of course, I will still do my best to make them change to what I believe to be a better iPhone.

Since we have a free market, you are free to buy a device with different tradeoffs. Of course, instead of getting angry at Apple for failing to open up the iPhone, you could be angry at all the Android manufacturers who have utterly failed to compete with Apple in UI, ecosystem, SoC, or battery life.

I have made my choice and bought an iPhone and modified it to fit my needs, and will try to influence apple to change it.

Why should I be angry at a company I don’t buy from?

You can replace the default Mail app now. Maybe send feedback to Apple about this? If enough people care about this feature maybe Apple will change its position.

I have

 

[vipergts2207]

Again this is Epic's dream - one app that will allow all the software on it to run on any platform be it from "OS App Store, the Android Google Play marketplace, different stores on Xbox, PlayStation, and Nintendo Switch, and then Microsoft Store and the Mac App Store" 'Epic's plan to clean up that confusion is to come up with a system enabling users "to buy software in one place, knowing that they'd have it on all devices and all platforms."'

One App to Rule them all - that is the Dream and that is Epic's goal and they hope they will be that one app.

From more quotes I’ve seen posted by others, Epic wants one place to buy software from in the sense that I would buy a game from Epic’s cross-platform game store and have access to that on all platforms it’s been released for. So if I buy some game, Minecraft for instance, my purchase is good on my iPhone, PlayStation, and Switch. Rather than only on one piece of hardware. Minecraft might be available on one digital store and Fortnite on another store. But not all software would exist in one singular store.

And that deal actually sounds pretty damn good to me as a consumer. I can buy a game and choose to play it on my PC or my iPhone or my PlayStation. Right now I’d have to buy that piece of software multiple times to do that. And there would unlikely be one cross-platform store as there are already major players in the gaming store space: Steam, Epic, Origin, etc. It would be great if they all went cross-platform. And if we did end up with a monopoly on digital software distribution, I’d be all in favor slapping some hefty regulations on how that distribution platform is allowed to operate. No different than my stance with Apple.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Again this is Epic's dream - one app that will allow all the software on it to run on any platform be it from "OS App Store, the Android Google Play marketplace, different stores on Xbox, PlayStation, and Nintendo Switch, and then Microsoft Store and the Mac App Store" 'Epic's plan to clean up that confusion is to come up with a system enabling users "to buy software in one place, knowing that they'd have it on all devices and all platforms."'

One App to Rule them all - that is the Dream and that is Epic's goal and they hope they will be that one app.

I’m sorry but how is it negative in any possible way if I as a consumer could buy any app for any platform on one place?

I think it would be awesome if steam had Xbox games, PlayStation games, windows games, max games, Linux games, iOS games and android games.

If you buy one you can download it on any compatible platform like steam have now

 

[I7guy]

Probably negotiated, considering Sony actually does some work. But generally it seems to hover at 5%~

Except where the commission is 30% or 15%.

Indeed like jailbreaking or putting political pressure.

Jailbreak mostly always works, except when it doesn’t. Same as political pressure.

It’s not anecdotal, or do you seriously every customer have no negative opinion of products they enjoy?

Except for those who voiced opinions on Macrumors or associates or friends or family how do you know what the opinion of remainder of the hundreds of millions of customers are. Or is this if only person has a negative opinion conversation?

Apple is. Only mail and reskinned safari after regulatory pressure

Right don’t know want regulatory pressure brought apple to open up mail and safari, but doing beyond that iOS doesn’t let one replace every default app.

Absolutely, still there are more online stores that aren’t owned by Sony

No, people who care about it jailbreak their devices if they think iOS is better.

Of course, I will still do my best to make them change to what I believe to be a better iPhone.

I have made my choice and bought an iPhone and modified it to fit my needs, and will try to influence apple to change it.

Why should I be angry at a company I don’t buy from?

I have

 

[Sophisticatednut]

From more quotes I’ve seen posted by others, Epic wants one place to buy software in the sense that I would a game from Epic’s game store and have access to that on all platforms it’s been released for. So if I buy some game, Minecraft for instance, my purchase is good on my iPhone, PlayStation, and Switch. Rather than only on one piece of hardware. Minecraft might be available on one digital store and Fortnite on another store. But not all software would exist in one singular store. And that deal actually sounds pretty good to me. I can buy a game and choose to play it on my PC or my iPhone or my PlayStation. Right now I’d have to buy that piece of software multiple times to do that.

Exactly and I’m not even advocating for anything like that, and I can’t see any reason to argue against it outside of apple losing money if all games could exist on steam instead of apple store