EU Accuses Apple's App Store Steering Rules of Violating DMA and Opens Investigation into Developer Fees

[NT1440]

You may have noticed Apple products are a very long way from free and have huge profit margins

They have roughly 40% margins, but that has nothing to do with the fact that software takes money to develop. Apple has invested literally billions of dollars in creating frameworks and APIs (via engineer salaries), but if I want to use shareplay for a game as an Indy dev I should get free access because someone else paid money for a Mac?

That’s amazing. When can I just take Amazon’s “one click purchase” technology and use it for my own? I ask because Apple had to pay Amazon for the patent use to enable one click purchasing in ITunes in the early 2000’s.*


*This patent has since expired, but you can see the point I’m making. Even mighty Apple had to pay what is in essence a CTF to use the patented idea.

 

[Mrkevinfinnerty]

They have roughly 40% margins, but that has nothing to do with the fact that software takes money to develop.

It does, Apple makes an absolute ton of money on the hardware.

Is the 40% margin Apple made on my iPhone not enough? they need to take 30% of somebody else's business aswell to make up for it?

 

[Mrkevinfinnerty]

That’s amazing. When can I just take Amazon’s “one click purchase” technology and use it for my own? I ask because Apple had to pay Amazon for the patent use to enable one click purchasing in ITunes in the early 2000’s.*


*This patent has since expired, but you can see the point I’m making. Even mighty Apple had to pay what is in essence a CTF to use the patented idea.

Were Amazon taking 30% of Apples iTunes sales?

 

[NT1440]

It does, Apple makes an absolute ton of money on the hardware.

Is the 40% margin Apple made on my iPhone not enough? they need to take 30% of somebody else's business aswell to make up for it?

If that someone else doesn’t want to do their own hosting and payment processing…yes.

Ask small time developers if they think it’s worth it. I think a college kid who just wanted to put their app into the world would absolutely find that ok. You can claim the rate should be lower, and maybe now nearly 20 years later it should be, but that 30% was a *****ing steal* compared to what it used to be like to sell software before the App Store.

 

[NT1440]

Were Amazon taking 30% of Apples iTunes sales?

They got a cut for the usage of the technology. It wasn’t 30%, but you could call it something…perhaps a core technology fee.

So make up your mind, are you upset at the rate of 30%, or the principle of getting a cut itself. You can’t seem to keep that consistent between posts.

 

[Ethosik]

I'll refer you to my Post# 177 on this same thread where I explain that my business has to cater to market demands, a fact that Apple exploits.

How will an alternate app store help this? If 99% of the users still use Apple App Store, you would still be in the same situation. You will just list your app there. This is why I am essentially forced to put my game I am working on in Steam if I want to maximize my audience.

People love to point out that Android has had this for years and nothing happened. So why do we need an alternate store on iOS then? Companies have failed to sideload their apps. Fortnite is a good example. Left the Play store and came back due to nobody installing it.

 

[Mrkevinfinnerty]

They got a cut for the usage of the technology. It wasn’t 30%, but you could call it something…perhaps a core technology fee.

So make up your mind, are you upset at the rate of 30%, or the principle of getting a cut itself. You can’t seem to keep that consistent between posts.

So no not gouging 30% of Apples business then.

I've never said they can't charge anything, the rates they charge at are a joke and the kind of thing Apple themselves would be outraged at.

Worth noting that they also charge devs an annual fee and you pretty much need a mac to develop for their platforms.

 

[Ethosik]

Didn't they have over 85% of the computer OS market?

They had low-mid 90s if I recall.

 

[NT1440]

So no not gouging 30% of Apples business then.

I've never said they can't charge anything, the rates they charge at are a joke and the kind of thing Apple themselves would be outraged at.

Worth noting that they also charge devs an annual fee and you pretty much need a mac to develop for their platforms.

What % would make you happy? How much do you think payment processing and hosting (let alone the compliance burden involved in both) are worth to an indie developer?

Do they want to code, or do they want to set up business relationships with Visa, Mastercard, PayPal, etc and then run their yearly audits to make sure everything is hunky-dory?

What’s all that work above, which is usually the job of several people, worth to you or to a small team of coders working on their passion project?

If I ever get around to making a small app for myself and put it out into the world I will gladly let Apple deal with it for a little less return, I don’t have any interest in the boring business operations of running a business.

 

[ProbablyDylan]

They have roughly 40% margins, but that has nothing to do with the fact that software takes money to develop.

Apple sold ~232M iPhones in 2023. Let's be generous and say all of them were iPhone SE, selling for a paltry $429. Let's take a neat 40% margin. That's.... $39,811,200,000(?) of profit. Only more than the GDP of El Salvador, and we're being conservative!

 

[surferfb]

If you want to continue using the app store you can continue to do so. No one is trying to take that away from you.

I will never understand the psychology of people who are hell-bent on voting against laws that don’t affect them.

They do affect us. Every minute spent by Apple engineers working on implementing this stuff isn’t spending time fixing bugs or on new features. iOS has literally built since 2008 assuming one App Store - massive amounts of engineering support was needed to make it function properly. It’s not like they just flipped a switch and it worked.

Then, on top of that, just wait until an app you need to do your job or your bank or apartment complex decides they don’t want to be on the App Store anymore because they don’t feel like abiding by Apple’s privacy rules.

Or your kid gets tricked into installing a game and uses your card to spend €1200 in gems from an scammy alternate App Store that has a “no refunds” policy and you can’t turn to Apple for help.

 

[Ethosik]

They have roughly 40% margins, but that has nothing to do with the fact that software takes money to develop. Apple has invested literally billions of dollars in creating frameworks and APIs (via engineer salaries), but if I want to use shareplay for a game as an Indy dev I should get free access because someone else paid money for a Mac?

That’s amazing. When can I just take Amazon’s “one click purchase” technology and use it for my own? I ask because Apple had to pay Amazon for the patent use to enable one click purchasing in ITunes in the early 2000’s.*


*This patent has since expired, but you can see the point I’m making. Even mighty Apple had to pay what is in essence a CTF to use the patented idea.

Yep! Video games were prohibited from creating mini-games in loading screens (back when loading was long and a mini-game would have helped the consumer)!

 

[NT1440]

Apple sold ~232M iPhones in 2023. Let's be generous and say all of them were iPhone SE, selling for a paltry $429. Let's take a neat 40% margin. That's.... $39,811,200,000(?) of profit. Only more than the GDP of El Salvador, and we're being conservative!

And? If we’re going to outlaw Bigness, that’s fine, but it better be across the board and not aimed at just one company that does Silicon Valley in a different way than the other gargantuan companies do.

 

[Ethosik]

So no not gouging 30% of Apples business then.

I've never said they can't charge anything, the rates they charge at are a joke and the kind of thing Apple themselves would be outraged at.

Worth noting that they also charge devs an annual fee and you pretty much need a mac to develop for their platforms.

Nearly EVERY digital marketplace takes 30%. Why are we still arguing like 30% is an INSANE Apple-only GREEDY issue? I am looking at 45% taken away from me in the long term for my game project with various licenses and technologies I am using. Steam is one of the components.

 

[NT1440]

Yep! Video games were prohibited from creating mini-games in loading screens (back when loading was long and a mini-game would have helped the consumer)!

Was that because of a patent or something?

I don’t get exactly the connection from your post to mine, but I am interested in the backstory of what you’re getting at with the mini games.

 

[NT1440]

Nearly EVERY digital marketplace takes 30%. Why are we still arguing like 30% is an INSANE Apple-only GREEDY issue? I am looking at 45% taken away from me in the long term for my game project with various licenses and technologies I am using. Steam is one of the components.

Oh you’re a dev! Can you please elaborate on this so people can see how this actually works in the real world? Appreciate it!

 

[ProbablyDylan]

They do affect us. Every minute spent by Apple engineers working on implementing this stuff isn’t spending time fixing bugs or on new features. iOS has literally built since 2008 assuming one App Store - massive amounts of engineering support was needed to make it function properly. It’s not like they just flipped a switch and it worked.

It took how long for them to make Siri good? The answer is, like always, different teams. The guys working on new features are on one team, the Siri guys are on another, Apple Intelligence on another, messaging and facetime on another, I could go on. Presumably, EU Compliance has a full time team making it happen.

Then, on top of that, just wait until an app you need to do your job or your bank or apartment complex decides they don’t want to be on the App Store anymore because they don’t feel like abiding by Apple’s privacy rules.

Why hasn't this happened on Android I wonder?

Or your kid gets tricked into installing a game and uses your card to spend €1200 in gems from an scammy alternate App Store that has a “no refunds” policy and you can’t turn to Apple for help.

Meaning I could chargeback and not worry about my Apple account getting closed down?

 

[Ethosik]

Was that because of a patent or something?

I don’t get exactly the connection from your post to mine, but I am interested in the backstory of what you’re getting at with the mini games.

Yes it was. Same thing you are talking about with Apple. Such a ridiculously broad idea was patented.

Games now allowed auxiliary mini-games during loading screens

How many hours in your life have you sat watching loading screens? Two? Twenty? Two hundred? Enough, right? Wouldn't it…

www.eurogamer.net

Hurrah! Loading Screen Minigame Patent Expires

This is delightful: Namco's patent on playable minigames while you wait for the main game to load has expired, meaning …

www.rockpapershotgun.com

Patent on Loading Screen Mini Games in Video Games Expires

Patent expires on mini game loading screen.

www.klemchuk.com

 

[ProbablyDylan]

And? If we’re going to outlaw Bigness, that’s fine, but it better be across the board and not aimed at just one company that does Silicon Valley in a different way than the other gargantuan companies do.

Oh, I was trying to highlight the absurdity of Apple's high margins not being enough to also cover software development. How much do you think the new emojis cost, a cool $10M each?

 

[Mrkevinfinnerty]

What % would make you happy? How much do you think payment processing and hosting (let alone the compliance burden involved in both) are worth to an indie developer?

Do they want to code, or do they want to set up business relationships with Visa, Mastercard, PayPal, etc and then run their yearly audits to make sure everything is hunky-dory?

What’s all that work above, which is usually the job of several people, worth to you or to a small team of coders working on their passion project?

If I ever get around to making a small app for myself and put it out into the world I will gladly let Apple deal with it for a little less return, I don’t have any interest in the boring business operations of running a business.

Definitely not 30% after they have bought a mac and paid their annual developer fee.

There are a ton of services that have robust api's to handle payment processing, for example the company i work for uses Braintree (owned by Paypal) they charge 1.9% plus a 20p per transaction (we are in the UK) flat fee.

 

[NT1440]

Oh, I was trying to highlight the absurdity of Apple's high margins not being enough to also cover software development. How much do you think the new emojis cost, a cool $10M each?

You know, if people like you wanted to be taken seriously, you could at least do the bare minimum of research with your flippant arguments. Emoji are made by a consortium.

 

[NT1440]

Definitely not 30% after they have bought a mac and paid their annual developer fee.

There are a ton of services that have robust api's to handle payment processing, for example the company i work for uses Braintree (owned by Paypal) they charge 1.9% plus a 20p per transaction (we are in the UK) flat fee.

In what business is the laptop and fee not written off as a business expenditure? And you’re buying a Mac every year just for the hell of it? You’re not making business sense here…

I’m going to wait on your response to Ethosik personally. He seems to be happy 🤷‍♂️

 

[Mrkevinfinnerty]

Nearly EVERY digital marketplace takes 30%. Why are we still arguing like 30% is an INSANE Apple-only GREEDY issue? I am looking at 45% taken away from me in the long term for my game project with various licenses and technologies I am using. Steam is one of the components.

But that doesn't make it right. Gaming isn't a big enough market or an essential service for anybody to care, which is likely why they don't get any regulatory scrutiny.

Apple/Google have too much power over other businesses and the breadth of those businesses spans multiple categories not just gaming.

Apple are increasingly competing with third party apps on their platform.

 

[Ethosik]

But that doesn't make it right. Gaming isn't a big enough market or an essential service for anybody to care, which is likely why they don't get any regulatory scrutiny.

Apple/Google have too much power over other businesses.

Gaming is the biggest entertainment market around. Bigger than even the Hollywood industry.

Who decides what is right? Its basic economics. Is an RTX 4090 at $1,599.99 right? I miss the days where a top end GPU was only around $700. Not double it.

You decide to develop for a platform, you accept their terms. Don't like the cut? Use something else. Literally everyone does it. Don't like Adobe's monthly fee? Use Pixelmator/Affinity/Gimp. Don't like iOS? Develop for Android. Its that simple.

 

[ProbablyDylan]

You know, if people like you wanted to be taken seriously, you could at least do the bare minimum of research with your flippant arguments. Emoji are made by a consortium.

The emoji are specified and implemented by a consortium, yes, but Apple still needs to, you know, make their version of that emoji.